COVID-19: Rev 6:8 and 9:18

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Abby-Joy said:

I was hoping you weren't saying women weren't created in God's image. Thank you for clarifying.

You're welcome.

[David1701]

3 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Indeed, it says gifts not titles: 

“Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers.” (Ephesians 4:11) 

This opens up another issue: these are ministry gifts to the assembly; but, elders and deacons are not, they are chosen to be elders and deacons, by people.  In other words, people choose you to be an elder, but it is God who makes someone, e.g., in the office of teacher. 

This is where it starts to become complicated, because elders are to be apt to teach; so, you could have an elder (chosen by people to be an elder) whom God has gifted to be in the office of teacher (whether recognised by the congregation or not); but, you could also have an elder who has some ordinary teaching ability, but whom God has not specially gifted to be in the office of teacher.  In other words the so-called five-fold ministry gifts are special giftings from God, above and beyond the ordinary abilities that men might have, which are also from God.

[Fidei Defensor]

19 hours ago, David1701 said:

This opens up another issue: these are ministry gifts to the assembly; but, elders and deacons are not, they are chosen to be elders and deacons, by people.  In other words, people choose you to be an elder, but it is God who makes someone, e.g., in the office of teacher. 

This is where it starts to become complicated, because elders are to be apt to teach; so, you could have an elder (chosen by people to be an elder) whom God has gifted to be in the office of teacher (whether recognised by the congregation or not); but, you could also have an elder who has some ordinary teaching ability, but whom God has not specially gifted to be in the office of teacher.  In other words the so-called five-fold ministry gifts are special giftings from God, above and beyond the ordinary abilities that men might have, which are also from God.

We see a deviation between what Christ and the apostle Pau taught on titles and what the other apostles decided in Acts 6:

Jesus says take no titles: 

“6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matthew 23:6-12)

Paul agrees with Christ, says they are gifts not titles: 

“Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers” (Ephensians 4:11)

But the apostles excluding Paul in Acts take two titles: teacher and deacon: 

“Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. ...” (Acts 6:1-6) 

I believe the Acts change was a moment of “it seemed good to us,” (Acts 15:28) and “Paul decided in his spirit to go to Jerusalem,”(Acts 19:21), not in The Holy Spirit. For when you see Jesus say “Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,
even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:25-28); servant here is the word that means a waiter who tends to your every need, even foreseeing your need for another glass of drink. Jesus taught we ought to preach the gospel and make disiciples (Matthew 28:19), be teachers of his commands (Matthew 28:20), but also serve one another like deacons; physical needs like foot washing (Matthew 20:25-28). The apostles chose to split the ministry into two: teachers and deacons. The Apostle James was very preturbed by this and wrote, “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2/14-17). The pitfall of the split, is churches decide to have a group of people do all the grunt work (deacons) of seeing to people’s physical needs, whike others get the less difficult life of teaching. 

I believe Scripture is God breathed and divinely inspired (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-22), but I also believe the apostles were human and could make mistakes in their flesh,  one of them was splitting servant into teachers and deacons. For Jesus said, “be servant of all,” (Matthew 20:26) and Paul said, “Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food!” (Hebrews 5:12). When its a man made idea the apostles say, “it seemed good to us,” or “they decided to..” , the rest of the time The Holy Trinity is inparting what they write (2 Peter 1:20-22). 

The reason The Red Letterists, a group of Christians that follow only what is in the red letters of Christ, exist is because they saw decisions like this one by the apostles that contradicted Christ’s command to -‘a) have no titles or be called teacher and b) split   servant (teacher+deacon) into two castes of teacher and deacon. 

We actually see in Acts 6 the beginning of what Constantine would do in 323 A.D. splitting the Clergy and Laity into two castes of the Church. Sigh. 

Edited July 22, 2020 by Fidei Defensor

[LonerAndy]

On 7/13/2020 at 5:16 PM, Fidei Defensor said:

Is COVID-19 the fuffillment of Revelation 6:8 and 9:18? 

“When he opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature say, "Come!" And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider's name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.” (Revelation 6:7-8)

“By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed, by the fire and smoke and sulfur coming out of their mouths.” (Revelation 9:18)

Or is this just a foreshadowing of what is to come? 

There have always been plagues and illness breakouts throughout the world, throughout history.

What we are going through, from an illness perspective, is entirely normal.

What is not normal, is having the entire planet freak out about it.   Humans are doing more damage to themselves, than Covid-19 is.

From a Revelation perspective, Covid-19 is nothing.  Absolutely nothing.   The revelation events, are massive, clear cut, unambiguous judgements from G-d.

We know this because Half the population of the Earth will be killed off in the judgements.    That's 4 Billion people roughly.  A few hundred thousand, most of whom were already on their death beds, killed by Covid-19, is not a revelation level event.

[David1701]

10 hours ago, Fidei Defensor said:

We see a deviation. 

Jesus says take no titles: 

“6 and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues
7 and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbi by others.
8 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.
9 And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven.
10 Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ.
11 The greatest among you shall be your servant.
12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matthew 23:6-12)

Paul agrees with Christ, says they are gifts not titles: 

“Now these are the gifts Christ gave to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers” (Ephensians 4:11)

But the apostles excluding Paul in Acts take two titles: teacher and deacon: 

“Now in these days when the disciples were increasing in number, a complaint by the Hellenists arose against the Hebrews because their widows were being neglected in the daily distribution. And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables. Therefore, brothers, pick out from among you seven men of good repute, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we will appoint to this duty. But we will devote ourselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” And what they said pleased the whole gathering, and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip, and Prochorus, and Nicanor, and Timon, and Parmenas, and Nicolaus, a proselyte of Antioch. ...” (Acts 6:1-6) 

I believe the Acts change was a moment of “it seemed good to us,” (Acts 15:28) and “Paul decided in his spirit to go to Jerusalem,”(Acts 19:21), not in The Holy Spirit. For when you see Jesus say “Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant,27 and whoever would be first among you must be your slave,
even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:25-28); servant here is the word that means a waiter who tends to your every need, even foreseeing your need for another glass of drink. Jesus taught we ought to preach the gospel and make disiciples (Matthew 28:19), be teachers of his commands (Matthew 28:20), but also serve one another like deacons; physical needs like foot washing (Matthew 20:25-28). The apostles chose to split the ministry into two: teachers and deacons. The Apostle James was very preturbed by this and wrote, “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.” (James 2/14-17). The pitfall of the split, is churches decide to have a group of people do all the grunt work (deacons) of seeing to people’s physical needs, whike others get the less difficult life of teaching. 

I believe Scripture is God breathed and divinely inspired (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-22), but I also believe the apostles were human and could make mistakes in their flesh,  one of them was splitting servant into teachers and deacons. For Jesus said, “be servant of all,” (Matthew 20:26) and Paul said, “Although by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to reteach you the basic principles of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food!” (Hebrews 5:12). When its a man made idea the apostles say, “it seemed good to us,” or “they decided to..” , the rest of the time The Holy Trinity is inparting what they write (2 Peter 1:20-22). 

The reason The Red Letterists, a group of Christians that follow only what is in the red letters of Christ, exist is because they saw decisions like this one by the apostles that contradicted Christ’s command to -‘a) have no titles or be called teacher and b) split   servant (teacher+deacon) into two castes of teacher and deacon. 

We actually see in Acts 6 the beginning of what Constantine would do in 323 A.D. splitting the Clergy and Laity into two castes of the Church. Sigh. 

How often do I have to tell you that it's nothing to do with titles?  Did you deliberately "forget" that I'd already agreed with you about that?

God has given gifts of five (possibly four) offices to the Church: apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors/teachers.  These are vocations given by God, not chosen by men.  If God calls you to be a pastor, then that is what you are, whether recognised by a particular group or not.

Elders and deacons are not gifts from God, they are people chosen by men, to fulfil certain important functions in the Church.  God gives criteria by which they are to be chosen.

This is nothing to do with clergy/laity and it is nothing to do with titles, so please omit the straw man arguments.  There is no such thing as apostolic succession.

Yes, apostles could (can?) make mistakes in the flesh and I agree the Paul made one, when he decided in his spirit to go to Jerusalem (I pointed this out to a friend, about 25 years ago).  This is, however, irrelevant to the points that I made in my post.

[missmuffet]

The State of Washington where I live are thinking about going back to phase 1. 

[Fidei Defensor]

6 hours ago, David1701 said:

How often do I have to tell you that it's nothing to do with titles?  Did you deliberately "forget" that I'd already agreed with you about that?

God has given gifts of five (possibly four) offices to the Church: apostles, prophets, evangelists and pastors/teachers.  These are vocations given by God, not chosen by men.  If God calls you to be a pastor, then that is what you are, whether recognised by a particular group or not.

Elders and deacons are not gifts from God, they are people chosen by men, to fulfil certain important functions in the Church.  God gives criteria by which they are to be chosen.

This is nothing to do with clergy/laity and it is nothing to do with titles, so please omit the straw man arguments.  There is no such thing as apostolic succession.

Yes, apostles could (can?) make mistakes in the flesh and I agree the Paul made one, when he decided in his spirit to go to Jerusalem (I pointed this out to a friend, about 25 years ago).  This is, however, irrelevant to the points that I made in my post.

I was actually supporting  your argument about titles, and showing where I think the apostles made a mistake like Paul did going to Jerusalem, when he had three prophets, including Peter tell him not too.  

[David1701]

53 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

I was actually supporting  your argument about titles, and showing where I think the apostles made a mistake like Paul did going to Jerusalem, when he had three prophets, including Peter tell him not too.  

Okay, thanks for clarifying.  Your opening sentence, "We see a deviation.", had made me think that it was contrary to my post.

Edited July 22, 2020 by David1701

[Fidei Defensor]

4 minutes ago, David1701 said:

Okay, thanks for clarifying.  Your opening sentence, "We see a deviation.", had made me think that it was contrary to my post.

Oh,  it was meant to mean that we see a deviation from what Christ and Paul taught about titles and the apostles in Acts 6. 

[David1701]

11 minutes ago, Fidei Defensor said:

Oh,  it was meant to mean that we see a deviation from what Christ and Paul taught about titles and the apostles in Acts 6. 

Hmm...

I've spotted a couple of points that need to be addressed, in your earlier post.

Quote

The pitfall of the split, is churches decide to have a group of people do all the grunt work (deacons) of seeing to people’s physical needs, whike others get the less difficult life of teaching. 

The "less difficult life of teaching"?  Are you serious?  Have you ever done any teaching?  I suspect not, because, if you had, you would not have posted this.

Quote

I believe Scripture is God breathed and divinely inspired (2 Timothy 3:16, 2 Peter 1:20-22), but I also believe the apostles were human and could make mistakes in their flesh,  one of them was splitting servant into teachers and deacons.

Firstly, it's not "teachers and deacons", it's apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors/teachers, elders and deacons; secondly, there is no mistake in people with different abilities doing different tasks; thirdly, since all Scripture is breathed out by God, the criteria for choosing elders and deacons are of God.

Edited July 22, 2020 by David1701
typo