The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

On your number 9:

I sort of agree with you. Generally, you are correct, the Bible does not ever use a phrase like "7 year tribulation". However, there is a period of 7 years (which I usually call Daniel's 70th week". Within that 7 years there is tribulation, but tribulation is a feature of it, something that occurs within it, it is not the time period itself.
However, I am not willing to say that there is not tribulation in the first 3.5 years, after all there has been tribulation throughout all of church history. In Matt 24 thoug, it does say this:

7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains. 9“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.

Now, there in mentions tribulation, on the tail of the birth pangs, so there is some wiggle room, but, you are correct, in that the term "great tribulation" is something that is applied after the mid point of the 7 years:

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 

but tribulation is a feature of it, something that occurs within it, it is not the time period itself. This is good! SO MANY people put a title on the 7 years: "the Tribulation." They should call it the 70th week.  John called HIS days "the tribulation." (Many English translations leave out the "the." (Rev. 1: I john in THE tribulation...")

However, I am not willing to say that there is not tribulation in the first 3.5 years This is wise.  The truth is, the trumpet judgments take up the first half of the week, and some of them are very severe.  Each trumpet will cause some amount of pressure on people. 

7 For nation will rise against nation  You should have posted verse 6:

⁶ And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

Jesus is clear, He is not talking about end times. Verses 7 through 12 at least are all tied to "the end is not yet" by prepositions that start each verse.  So earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, pestilences, famines - all are the beginning of sorrows in the church age.

If you notice, Jesus does not put a title on the last half of the week either: that is man's doing. Jesus said there would be "those days" of "great tribulation."  But He did say, "after the tribulation of those days" so maybe He DID put a title on the week. 

For sure the days of GT will not come until the second  half of the week. I don't think they really start until AFTER God sends the angels to warn people not to take the mark. The beheaded don't begin to show up in heaven until chapter 15.

[Omegaman 3.0]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Note, there is a HUGE difference between the daily tribulations of the church age and the time of God's wrath. 

I could not agree more! The thing is though that it is not me who thinks that the tribulation is the wrath of God, that is the assertion of many pre-trib believers that the tribulation is just that. Some say it is His wrath on unbelievers, other say it is His wrath against Jews for rejecting their messiah (time of Jacob's trouble). If anything is wrathful in the tribulation, I am inclined to think it is the wrath of Anti-christ, his minions, and perhaps an unbelieving world who perhaps blame Christians for their problems, much as the Nazis blamed the Jews for their problems, or as Nero blamed Christians.

I think that Rev 12 though, indicates that the Jews will be protected by God in the wilderness for 3 and one half years, and then Satan, goes after the other elect, the followers of Jesus, 

13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle to fly from the presence of the serpent to her place in the wilderness, where she was nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.

15 Then from the mouth of the serpent spewed water like a river to overtake the woman and sweep her away in the torrent. 16 But the earth helped the woman and opened its mouth to swallow up the river that had poured from the dragon’s mouth. 17 And the dragon was enraged at the woman, and went to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

Not every wrath is from God!

Now, just in case no one has noticed, everything I have said, has a basis in scripture, and though post-tribbers might be wrong, what the believe does not contradict scripture, nor do they have to say things that the Bible never says.

Wow, I just noticed that you have replied separately in different posts, to things I have said. I wish you would summarize them in one place, so I can just get this done without having to chase you down endlessly, since you are a very prolific poster on this topic, tell me, what do you think is the strongest point for pre-trib thought? I think the strongest point against it, is that it is never mentioned in the Bible!

[Omegaman 3.0]

40 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

In other words, are you expecting Him tonight?

No, I do not believe that the Bible holds that Jesus return is imminent, but after the things predicted have all been fulfilled, then it is imminent!

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Your number 10 is interesting:

In 1st Cor 15 we see:

51 Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

There is a trumpet again, I though that sounded familiar. It says the the dead will be raised, and "we" shall be changed. I have to assume that since the did not happen to Paul, that the "we" are those alive at Jesus' parousia, His visible 2nd coming after the great tribulation, again:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Nothing in Matt 24, is incompatible with other passages, but pre-tribbers tend to like to wish it did not exist, so they go lengths to disregard it, to explain it away. There us really no sound reason, as far as I am concerned to do that. It is after all, the most thoroughly expounded passage of the sequence of events to come, in the entire Bible. Unlike the book of Revelation (which is full of imagery and visions) and not in sequential order, Matthew is straight forward and easily understood. I think Matt 24 and it's counterparts in Mark and Luke therefore make good standard to measure less clear passages against (a standard rule in exegesis)

Re: 1 Thess 4, let's get part of in in plain view here:

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

Paul did not want Christians to be ignorant, so he provided some detail to enlighten us. First he point out that there are two classes of dead people, those who are asleep (dead) in Christ, and those who have no hope (or those who are grieving because there is no hope of the dead outside of Christ rising to glory). Those who believe and have died, through Jesus, God will bring with Him, those (brothers) who have died.
Now, according to the Lord's own word, those who remain until the coming (parousia again) of the Lord will not precede those who have fallen (died) asleep. Let that sink in!
That is expressly saying that the living Christians will not be raptured to be with Christ prior to the dead Christ being raised. It is very clear, nothing remotely vague about that. If only we knew the sequence that would show us, when the dead in Christ would be raised/resurrected, then we might have a good clue about when the rapture is, in the overall sequence of events.

Returning to Revelation 4, we see:

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

So, there we see some of the dead in Christ, these ones happen to have lived during the time of tribulation, as indicated by the fact that they had not takens it's mark on thier hands and foreheads, and in fact were beheaded during that time. Then it (Revelation) goes on to say of this rising of the dead (where they came to life again):

This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

Yeah, so all I need to know about the rapture is in 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4, once the understanding is expanded with the understanding that before there is a rapture, there is a resurrection, the "first resurrection", which happens (according to the Bible) after the time that Christians are being killed for their faith (as Jesus said in Matt 24) which is expressly after the time of the beast activity.

I know there will be those who refuse this understanding, but this is not for them. It is for those who want to understand what the Bible says, not what some people believe it means. That is why I quoted scripture.

but pre-tribbers tend to like to wish it did not exist, I am a pretribber and Matthew 24 does not bother me in the least: I know that gathering cannot possibly be Paul's rapture because it comes 7 years after and because it gathers from heaven and earth. 

Let that sink in!  Yes, we all know the resurrection of the dead in Christ will happen a microsecond before those who are alive and in Christ are caught up. Some people make a huge point of this timing because they imagine the "first resurrection" in Rev. 20 happens right then at that chapter 20 timing. They are mistaken: first does not mean first in TIME but rather first in HONOR. All the righteous (at different times) will take part in that first resurrection.  A more important question would be WHERE does Paul's rapture fit in John's narrative? i think Paul is clear: HIS rapture will come just before God's wrath. 

I have to assume that since the did not happen to Paul, that the "we" are those alive at Jesus' parousia, His visible 2nd coming after the great tribulation, Why not assume according to Paul that the Parousia will NOT be a visible coming (Hidden in a cloud) and it will be just before wrath and not after the GT?

from one end of heaven to the other.  This instantly rules out Paul's rapture which gathers from EARTH. This is a different gathering happening over 7 years AFTER Paul's rapture. 

There us really no sound reason, as far as I am concerned to do that.  OF COURSE there is sound reason: this gathering gathers from heaven, while Paul's rapture gathers from earth. This gathering is after the days of GT, while Paul's rapture is just before Wrath. (Wrath starts at the 6th seal). Next, those gathering after the GT will not make it to the marriage and supper which will take place in heaven before Jesus descends. 

It is after all, the most thoroughly expounded passage of the sequence of events to come, in the entire Bible  No, it is not. Revelation has chapters on the 70th week while Jesus gives us a few verses. At least for a while, Jesus gives us the order of events, but then, so does Revelation. 

the book of Revelation (which is full of imagery and visions) and not in sequential order  WHO SAID? John never said it, nor did Jesus. OF COURSE it is on sequential order, but we have to consider that there are a few parentheses. For example, NO vial can be poured out until all 7 trumpets have sounded and NO trumpet can sound until all seven seals are opened.  I understand, if people have preconceptions that it is out of order, they will insist it is. 

that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope.   I think Paul is clear that it is the sinners who have no hope. 

That is expressly saying that the living Christians will not be raptured to be with Christ prior to the dead Christ being raised.   It is a moot point: a split second after the dead fly up out of their graves, those who are alive are caught up, and TOGETHER (the gathering?) they are gathered to Jesus in the cloud. 

then we might have a good clue about when the rapture is, in the overall sequence of events. We can already know: Paul tells us his rapture will come JUST before (as the trigger for) the start of the Day of Wrath or the Day of the Lord. All we need do is find where the start of the DAY is in revelation and we have the timing of Paul's rapture.

So, there we see some of the dead in Christ, these ones happen to have lived during the time of tribulation,  I disagree: we DON'T know they are "In Christ." it may well be that "in Christ" is only possible during the church age which ends at the 6th seal start of the DAY.  We can certainly call them believers or saints or "the remnant."

which happens (according to the Bible) after the time that Christians are being killed for their faith (as Jesus said in Matt 24) which is expressly after the time of the beast activity.  Now you have drawn conclusions that are simply from not understanding "first."  It is NOT first in TIMING; it is first in HONOR.  And it is NOT just for one moment in time: JESUs was the firstfruits of this "first" or chief of resurrections. The church will be the second wave, pretrib. the 144,000 will be next, and finally those killed during the days of GT along with all the other Old Testament saints. Sorry, but your argument fails.  There is only TWO resurrections listed in Revelation: one for the righteous and one for the damned. All the righteous partake of the first, all of the damned will be in the second. 

It is for those who want to understand what the Bible says  I think you showed us what you THINK it means.  You did OK, but your logic failed in your last point. People have been trying to make that point stick for years; none have been successful, for it is not truth. The truth is, the righteous - ALL of the righteous - take part on that first resurrection, but at DIFFERENT TIMES - with Jesus being the firstfruits. You are trying to pinpoint it to a point in TIME, when it is not given in TIME but in HONOR. It is for ALL "time." All the righteous will have their part in this chief of all resurrections - but at different times.  

[Omegaman 3.0]

30 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Jesus is clear, He is not talking about end times. Verses 7 through 12 at least are all tied to "the end is not yet" by prepositions that start each verse.  So earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars, pestilences, famines - all are the beginning of sorrows in the church age.

Sure, not everything He said was limited to 2000 years furture of more, the destruction of the temple happened, of course. Everything else He said would happen, will. For example the gospel would go out to every nation, that did not happen in the first century, was not going to happen I guess, at least until the new world was discovered, but the disciples had no way to know about that. To them, the uttermost part of the parts of the earth, was a smaller place!

 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Omegaman 3.0 said:

No, I do not believe that the Bible holds that Jesus return is imminent, but after the things predicted have all been fulfilled, then it is imminent!

Thanks. Then if I were you, I would certainly camp out on Heb. 9: the last verse. As I read that verse, He is coming for those LOOKING for Him. If that is true, and He came tomorrow, those NOT looking (expecting to see other things first) will not even hear the trumpet. they will be left behind. 

[iamlamad]

Just now, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Sure, not everything He said was limited to 2000 years furture of more, the destruction of the temple happened, of course. Everything else He said would happen, will. For example the gospel would go out to every nation, that did not happen in the first century, was not going to happen I guess, at least until the new world was discovered, but the disciples had no way to know about that. To them, the uttermost part of the parts of the earth, was a smaller place!

 

Wow! You said that right! Their world was much smaller!

[Omegaman 3.0]

28 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Thanks. Then if I were you, I would certainly camp out on Heb. 9: the last verse. As I read that verse, He is coming for those LOOKING for Him. If that is true, and He came tomorrow, those NOT looking (expecting to see other things first) will not even hear the trumpet. they will be left behind. 

Oh, not necessarily. Maybe for those who worship a specific version of the Bible, people might see LOOKING for him, the Greek though says apekdechomenois, 

Hebrews 9:28 V-PPM/P-DMP
GRK: τοῖς αὐτὸν ἀπεκδεχομένοις εἰς σωτηρίαν
NAS: to those who eagerly await Him.
KJV: of many; and unto them that look for him
INT: to those that him await for salvation

I certainly am eagerly awaiting His return, and I am doing what He and Paul both urged, watching for the signs that signal His soon coming, though I do not expect that to be in my lifetime, it IS possible. Things in the world at the moment seem perhaps accelerated compared to what I have seen before. In anycase, if I were to find myself in Daniel's 70th week, that is not bad new, that is good news, it places His coming sooner, which is a good thing. I would hope that God would grant me the grace, to suffer for Him, with perseverance, patience, and steadfastness.

I cannot respond any more during this session, have spent far too much time out of my day already.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

DeighAnn, I think the way you have framed and expanded upon the topic is great. I believe you really have and open and searching mind that wants to know what God has revealed, and I think that is awesome.

I do note that your posts are lengthy, with good explanations for your thoughts. I am guilty of that at times myself. It is not a bad thing, but we have so many fast food Christians, than many will just skim over them, but some will read them with sobriety. Good job!

Thank you for the comments.  I don't think it a bad thing to go into a bit more detail because so much of Gods Word seems to be just slightly twisted, which I am sure you know, and that is all it takes to go from Truth to void.  I figure the Holy Spirit will lead those truly seeking to the longer posts.  I realize there aren't very many, but I like that too!

I thank the Lord that I had a pretty good foundation before starting in these forums because I find myself getting really confused sometimes.  But I have really come to love the way God just opens up more and more truth as we refine.  I know I am on solid ground when everywhere I turn, I find no conflicts.  I have learned at the first verse made void go back, find out where I left the path, correct and go forward again.  

I really believe that we are coming out of the "just love and you're covered" generation.  At least I hope so.  I think it is time for some meat and potatoes.  The milk is great at first but it wont grow you up! 

I will have to check out some of your writings.  I don't get out much but I do feel like I will be having some free time in the near future.  I'll go cruising around the forum and I am sure I will find you.  Looking forward to your "lengthy" posts.  Truly.    

[Omegaman 3.0]

5 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I will have to check out some of your writings.  I don't get out much but I do feel like I will be having some free time in the near future.  I'll go cruising around the forum and I am sure I will find you.  Looking forward to your "lengthy" posts.  Truly. 

Thanks, what a nice thing to say. Yeah, I am out there, but I do not post as much as I used to, so a lot of my stuff is back there a bit. 

One thing I do recall though, is this thread. Now, the words were carefully crafted, to be very specific, I said things in such a way, that I do not thing many could disagree with or refute, but it does probably annoy a few people, but that cannot be helped sometimes.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/189668-things-the-bible-does-not-say-about-the-end-times/