The Pre Tribulation Raptured Church

[Guest theElect777]

15 hours ago, iamlamad said:

This may well be because some peoples "facts" are not truth to others. 

It doesn't matter if you accept them or not because we are discussing what FLEE/FLED means according to the Ancient Greek, not to the English translation.   And the SAME GREEK word in every verse using FLEE/FLED is the SAME WORD.   And that definition does not mean to leave forever but a short period.   And you choose to both IGNORE and NOT ACCEPT what the GREEK WORD MEANS!   That is fact number 2!

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, theElect777 said:

It doesn't matter if you accept them or not because we are discussing what FLEE/FLED means according to the Ancient Greek, not to the English translation.   And the SAME GREEK word in every verse using FLEE/FLED is the SAME WORD.   And that definition does not mean to leave forever but a short period.   And you choose to both IGNORE and NOT ACCEPT what the GREEK WORD MEANS!   That is fact number 2!

What you are saying is, the islands fled away but later came back! Right! But the Geek does not end with fled, it continues on explaining:

kai........topos......ouc........eureqh.............autois
G2532...G5117.....G3756...G2147................G846
AND.....PLACE.....NOT.....WAS-FOUND...to-them

In simple English it means they just disappeared into thin air. 

Then add to that:

And I-PERCEIVED HEAVEN NEW AND LAND NEW; THE FOR FORMER (Before-most) HEAVEN and THE FOR FORMER (Before-most) LAND PASSED BY (Beside-came)....  In English: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...

When you put all this together - with no preconceived glasses on - this existing heaven and earth DISAPPEAR and God creates new.

STRONG'S:
FLED AWAY:  pheugō 

The KJV translates Strong's G5343 in the following manner: flee (26x), escape (3x), flee away (2x).

Bible Usage:

 

1. 1.  to flee away, seek safety by flight

2. 2.  metaph. to flee (to shun or avoid by flight) something abhorrent, esp. vices

3. 3.  to be saved by flight, to escape safely out of danger

4. 4.  poetically, to flee away, vanish

5. Note: NONE of these suggest fleeing and then returning. 

6. Strong's definition:

7. φεύγω pheúgō, fyoo'-go; apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish:—escape, flee (away).

8. Mar 14:52 - And he left the linen cloth, and fled ^G5343 from them naked.  Did he return?  

Therefore I disagree with you. I simply don't believe you have the truth about this word. 

 

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by iamlamad

[Guest theElect777]

9 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

What you are saying is, the islands fled away but later came back! Right! But the Geek does not end with fled, it continues on explaining:

kai........topos......ouc........eureqh.............autois
G2532...G5117.....G3756...G2147................G846
AND.....PLACE.....NOT.....WAS-FOUND...to-them

In simple English it means they just disappeared into thin air. 

Then add to that:

And I-PERCEIVED HEAVEN NEW AND LAND NEW; THE FOR FORMER (Before-most) HEAVEN and THE FOR FORMER (Before-most) LAND PASSED BY (Beside-came)....  In English: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away...

When you put all this together - with no preconceived glasses on - this existing heaven and earth DISAPPEAR and God creates new.

STRONG'S:
FLED AWAY:  pheugō 

The KJV translates Strong's G5343 in the following manner: flee (26x), escape (3x), flee away (2x).

Bible Usage:

 

1. 1.  to flee away, seek safety by flight

2. 2.  metaph. to flee (to shun or avoid by flight) something abhorrent, esp. vices

3. 3.  to be saved by flight, to escape safely out of danger

4. 4.  poetically, to flee away, vanish

5. Note: NONE of these suggest fleeing and then returning. 

6. Strong's definition:

7. φεύγω pheúgō, fyoo'-go; apparently a primary verb; to run away (literally or figuratively); by implication, to shun; by analogy, to vanish:—escape, flee (away).

8. Mar 14:52 - And he left the linen cloth, and fled ^G5343 from them naked.  Did he return?  

Therefore I disagree with you. I simply don't believe you have the truth about this word. 

 

 

No, I am saying the SAME WORD is used, but Earth is compared by Peter being cleansed the first time by water and the second by fire.   But the Earth did not vanish with water so there is no reason to believe it will vanish by fire.  It's only being cleansed.   And the key word is ELEMENTS.   Elements is not even remotely close to a Planet, it's variations of the Planet!   This is where I see you refusing to be LOGICAL at!

Edited August 12, 2020 by theElect777

[iamlamad]

14 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

Oh, not necessarily. Maybe for those who worship a specific version of the Bible, people might see LOOKING for him, the Greek though says apekdechomenois, 

Hebrews 9:28 V-PPM/P-DMP
GRK: τοῖς αὐτὸν ἀπεκδεχομένοις εἰς σωτηρίαν
NAS: to those who eagerly await Him.
KJV: of many; and unto them that look for him
INT: to those that him await for salvation

I certainly am eagerly awaiting His return, and I am doing what He and Paul both urged, watching for the signs that signal His soon coming, though I do not expect that to be in my lifetime, it IS possible. Things in the world at the moment seem perhaps accelerated compared to what I have seen before. In anycase, if I were to find myself in Daniel's 70th week, that is not bad new, that is good news, it places His coming sooner, which is a good thing. I would hope that God would grant me the grace, to suffer for Him, with perseverance, patience, and steadfastness.

I cannot respond any more during this session, have spent far too much time out of my day already.

IF (a very big IF) you can believe His coming is not imminent (other things must come first) and still be expecting Him at any moment, watching for Him, then I think you satisfy that verse. It just seems kind of impossible to me. 

Hey! Hold on! you wrote: "watching for the signs that signal His soon coming..."  His coming FOR His saints will have ZERO signs! I would then suggest you watch for HIM, not for any signs! Paul gives us one hint: it is at a time when people are thinking and saying "peace and safety." 

Don't fall for the story of only one more coming. Paul tells of a coming ONLY to the air, and HIDDEN in a cloud.  This does not fit with "every eye will see Him."   Then Paul tells us HIS rapture / gathering will come JUST before (like a microsecond) the start of the Day of the Lord and His wrath (literally no time between: church age ends - Day of the Lord begins).

This simply CANNOT be His coming as shown in Rev. 19. This is why I strongly believe He is coming TWICE more: first FOR His saints and then 7 years later WITH His saints.  I have yet another reason for believing this: as I see it, it will be IMPOSSIBLE for posttribers to make it up to heaven for the marriage and supper. (These events will certainly take place in heaven and before He gets on His white horse.) This is not to mention the verses that tell us He sets NO appointments for us with His wrath. There is yet another reason: the great crowd, too large to number, seen in heaven - that is in chapter 7. John does not even start the 70th week until chapter 8. In other words, this crowd is in heaven PRETRIB. 

Pretribbers are often accused of twisting scripture to make pretrib fit - Yet, I have heard others time and again MOVE the marriage and supper from heaven where John puts it, to earth so it will FIT with posttrib theory.

[iamlamad]

10 minutes ago, theElect777 said:

No, I am saying the SAME WORD is used, but Earth is compared by Peter being cleansed the first time by water and the second by fire.   But the Earth did not vanish with water so there is no reason to believe it will vanish by fire.  It's only being cleansed.   And the key word is ELEMENTS.   Elements is not even remotely close to a Planet, it's variations of the Planet!   This is where I see you refusing to be LOGICAL at!

Again, (how many times?) we are talking about TWO events over 1000 years apart. 

[DeighAnn]

1 minute ago, iamlamad said:

His coming FOR His saints will have ZERO signs!

It seems once THE DIVIDING BEGINS, it just can't stop.  

First is the division of the Lords Day

Then is the division of the churches

Here the division of the saints

Yet,  NO DIVISION of the Tribulation and Wrath of God?   




Saints

1  Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Greek

To the church of God being in Corinth, having been sanctiffied in Christ Jesus called holy, together with all those calling on the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ in every place both theirs and ours 



Romans 16:2   That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.
 

That her you might receive in{the} Lord worthily of the saints (40)

40 hagios  
sacred, holy
set apart by (or for) God, 


Philipians 4:21 Salute every saint (40) in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.

40 hagios  
sacred, holy
set apart by (or for) God, 

 

Hagios  properly


DIFFERENT (UNLIKE) OTHER , HOLY, FOR THE BELIEVER  
"LIKENESS OF NATURE WITH THE lORD  
because different from the world

different from THE WORLD , because like the Lord

distinct i.e. BECAUSE SPECIAL TO THE LORD
 

[Spock]

Omegaman,

I see iamlad has responded quite a bit to your points, or were they my points? 
 

Anyhow, I would be interested in reading your rebuttals to my rebuttals if you are still interested in sharing such. Maybe you have already done this through your dialogue with iamlad, so I guess I will have to go back and read the three pages of responses since my last response. I’m on a vacation with my wife in Florida so I’m in and out a lot while here, but I will check back to see if you left any.
 

cheers,

spock

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

It seems once THE DIVIDING BEGINS, it just can't stop.  

First is the division of the Lords Day

the Lords Day  What on earth does this MEAN? I will search KJV: 

There is only one:

Revelation 1:10

I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

 

What is the meaning of this? It is very simple: He was in the Spirit on a SUNDAY. Plain and simple. 

 

Perhaps you meant:

"Day of His wrath"

"Day of the Lord"

Both of these are titles of the same period of time.

"Tribulation"

"70th week"

 

Here is what Webster's has to say about the Day of the Lord:

Definition of day of the Lord

a day inaugurating the eternal universal rule of God:

a:  in the Old Testament : an eschatological day of ultimate judgment bringing final deliverance or doom

— called also day of Yahweh

b:  in the New Testament : the triumphant day of Christ's return to earth in glory

 

I would immediately disagree with Webster's because the Day of the Lord (told many times in the Old - is still future to us in the New: therefore the Old Testament definition also fits the New. 

 

From now on, if you wish to use "the Lord's day," limit that to a Sunday.
If you are really meaning "the Day of the Lord," then use that term so we know what you are meaning. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by iamlamad

[iamlamad]

2 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

It seems once THE DIVIDING BEGINS, it just can't stop.  

First is the division of the Lords Day
Then is the division of the churches
Here the division of the saints
Yet,  NO DIVISION of the Tribulation and Wrath of God?   

Saints

1  Corinthians 1:2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

Greek
To the church of God being in Corinth, having been sanctiffied in Christ Jesus called holy, together with all those calling on the name of the Lord of us Jesus Christ in every place both theirs and ours 

Romans 16:2   That ye receive her in the Lord, as becometh saints, and that ye assist her in whatsoever business she hath need of you: for she hath been a succourer of many, and of myself also.

That her you might receive in{the} Lord worthily of the saints (40)

40 hagios  
sacred, holy
set apart by (or for) God, 


Philipians 4:21 Salute every saint (40) in Christ Jesus. The brethren which are with me greet you.
Hagios  properly


DIFFERENT (UNLIKE) OTHER , HOLY, FOR THE BELIEVER  
"LIKENESS OF NATURE WITH THE lORD  
because different from the world

different from THE WORLD , because like the Lord

distinct i.e. BECAUSE SPECIAL TO THE LORD
 

First is the division of the Lords Day  Again, what on earth do you mean? A Sunday since that was John's meaning? I guess one could divide a Sunday between night and day.
If you mean "the Day of the lord"  how is it divided? It begins at the 6th seal and continues on AT LEAST to the 7th vial that ends the week. 

Then is the division of the churches  John did a nice job, divided them into 7 different churches or types of churches. 

Here the division of the saints  Hmmm.

to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints  (called to be holy:)  These would be a part of the Gentile church. 

I agree: "saints" are set apart from the world, holy before God. 

[Justin Adams]

22 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

the Lords Day  What on earth does this MEAN?

The first century Jews considered the Lord's Day as being the Sabbath.