The TWO Witnesses?

[Dennis1209]

Like many, I've always pondered whom the 'two witnesses' might be? With explanations and supporting scripture, this post would become mammoth, so I'm very brief. Generally, John was given an explanation and interpretation of the visions he was seeing, not so much with the two witnesses, but there are clues. The major traditional train of thought and expositors have been Enoch & Elijah, Elijah & Moses, someone representing the Old and New Testaments. 

I ran across an explanation I found intriguing. Scripture interprets scripture and I let go my preconceived notions and tried to keep an open mind on a 'different view'. Like I said above, I'm letting scripture interpret scripture and it would take a lot of ink to explain this view point so I'm extremely brief. Revelation is full of symbolism, and that symbolism is either explained then and there in Revelation, or found elsewhere in the Bible. If we can answer some key questions, the picture becomes clear and makes much more sense. 

(1) Exactly whom is the 'Olive Tree'? (2) Whom is the 'Wild Olive Tree'? (3) Who is the vine and who is the branch, and who's grafted in? (4) Are the two witnesses two individuals or two people groups [Jew's & Gentiles]? (5) What is that 'great city? (6) Like many other places in the Bible, is the 3.5 days the two witnesses lay dead in the streets of that city, representative for not 3.5 literal days but, three and a half years? (7) A witness must witness and experience something first hand, and give personal testimony, nothing second-hand or hearsay. What did these two witnesses witness and when?

For brevity, I'll let scripture answer the first two questions.

Romans 11:17 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:24 (KJV) For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Here we have two trees, two people witness groups, the believing Jew's and Gentiles. A good scriptural case is made the 'two witnesses' in the tribulation are the Messianic Jew's and Gentile believers. Anyone ever heard this view point before?

If anyone is interested I can expound on answering the rest of the proposed questions. I'm not saying my traditional long held view has changed but, this is something I find plausible and very interesting. 

 

[darkmatter]

As described in Revelation, these two witnesses are two prophets.

Rev 11:10 The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth.

When the Lord brings major judgement, he always had two prophets to carry out the plagues --

1) Moses and Aron - Egypt
2) The two angels who transformed into human beings - Sodom and Gamorrah

The first prophet is Elijah, but I don't think he is the Elijah of the OT, just an "Elijah" with his powers. The other one is a mystery.



 

[Who me]

2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

I've always pondered whom the 'two witnesses' might be

Which two witnesses this in Zecharia 4 or those in Rev 11.

[R. Hartono]

Moses n Elijah have appeared to meet Jesus witnessing His ministry for the end Times purpose of witnessing to people in the great Tribulation.

[missmuffet]

1. Moses and Elijah

2. Enoch and Elijah

[RonaldBruno]

These two men witness to Jews about Christ in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years. It is very important that you get what Romans 11 is about: That millions of Jews will be saved during this Great Tribulation period.

No one can harm them. (THIS cannot mean the Jews or the Church because Christians and Jews are in fact persecuted during this time)

They have and use supernatural powers.

They are dressed in sackcloth. ( I never wore sackcloth _ dont know anyone who has.)

Then the Antichrist kills them and they lie in the street for 3 1/2 days while the world celebrates, being relieved of their powers, words and actions.

Then they are resurrected.

We need to take most of Revelation literally, otherwise the true meaning can get lost or at best blurry.

Symbolism is usually explained in scripture, like the dragon with seven heads and ten horns. 

Jesus literally fulfilled over 300 prophecies and will return to literally fulfill 300 or so more.

Read any prophecy in the Bible that has already been fulfilled - it was physically and literally fulfilled. Why should we think it will be done differently/symbollically in the future?

I don't know for sure, but Enoch and Elijah did not die. They were taken up. And it is appointed that we have one life, one death. So they may have to come back to het the attention of the Jews and then die and be resurrected.

Now would that be interesting if the Church was raptured at the same time the witnesses were.

COMTEMPLATE THIS: The world and the Jews would have to realize (IF the rapture of 2.5 billion Christians  had happened prior to the witnesses arrival), and common sense would dictate to them logically that the story of the rapture was true, that Jesus did this and that they missed out. It would be so shockingly obvious that Two Witnesses would not be needed at all - they would get it. 

This is why me thinks a Mid-Trib/pre-wrath rapture will occur.

[Rosenberg57]

The 2 witnesses are the OT and the NT, these are what tormented those upon the Earth.  That they lie dead in the streets, is that no one is following the word of either.

[wingnut-]

On 7/25/2020 at 7:20 AM, Dennis1209 said:

If anyone is interested I can expound on answering the rest of the proposed questions. I'm not saying my traditional long held view has changed but, this is something I find plausible and very interesting. 

 

While I agree the two olive branches symbolize the two groups, Jews and Gentile, it is a reference to two individuals, Enoch (Gentile), Elijah (Jew), the only two men in scripture that did not die a physical death.  The problem with trying to view the two witnesses are two large groups is problematic, just consider this passage from chapter 11.

 

Revelation 11: 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,

 

How large are these groups?  How many bodies does that leave in the streets?  And who would be standing around such a scene, can you imagine the smell of that many decaying bodies?

[Dennis1209]

On 7/26/2020 at 2:11 PM, wingnut- said:

 

While I agree the two olive branches symbolize the two groups, Jews and Gentile, it is a reference to two individuals, Enoch (Gentile), Elijah (Jew), the only two men in scripture that did not die a physical death.  The problem with trying to view the two witnesses are two large groups is problematic, just consider this passage from chapter 11.

 

Revelation 11: 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8 and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9 For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb,

 

How large are these groups?  How many bodies does that leave in the streets?  And who would be standing around such a scene, can you imagine the smell of that many decaying bodies?

I agree, and I still hold my traditional life long view of "two" witnesses but; like I mentioned, I find this alternate non-traditional view interesting and worth some study. 

Hebrews 9:27 (KJV) And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Everyone has their own hermeneutics and theology, and I'm not out to argue my viewpoint or change anyone's mind but, just to talk about how we developed, based on scripture, our thoughts and viewpoints. We know there's types, shadows and symbology in the Bible. We are given a number of examples of people whom did not physically die once, but twice. Enoch walked with God and pleased God and he was suddenly and forcefully snatched up. To me, this sounds like a shadow, typology, a symbol [like the brazen serpent in the desert of the Messiah's coming] for true born again believers, the harpazo [Rapture]. Unlike Elijah, where there were signs given to Elias to watch for before Elijah departed and a multitude of witnesses looking on; Enoch was Raptured suddenly, without warning, he was there and then he was not. Enoch didn't taste physical death, and I suspect he is a type and shadow of the harpazo. For a variety of scriptural reasons and the three talking at Jesus's transfiguration, the powers given the two witnesses are those they possessed during their ministries, etc. A witness has to be an eye witness with a first hand account of events, with no hearsay or second hand accounts. What's the biblical record of what Enoch witnessed, did or recorded? What were Jesus, Moses and Elijah discussing at the transfiguration? What did the two patriarchs and prophets of God [Moses & Elijah] do, perform and witness through the Lord, and compared to Enoch?

I also highly suspect at this time [mid-tribulation] the Gog-Magog [Eze :38-:39] invasion has previously occurred. Given the length of time given in the Bible of how long it takes to bury all the bodies and body parts scattered everywhere; everyone should be accustomed to the overwhelming stench by then in and around Jerusalem. At this point when these two witnesses are murdered is about 3-1/2 years into the tribulation and the great tribulation is kicking off. The Jew's and professing Christians are going to start to be slaughtered in earnest and in mass and flee at the AOD. Whom will be left behind or even care to bury those bodies all over when the Son of Perdition officially reveals himself? 

On a side note; it seems remarkable that at this particular moment in world history, what we're experiencing and witnessing; both physically and prophetically. Everything prophetic is coming on like gang-busters and could be described as a woman's birth pangs. As an American, if I had told you 20, 30, fifty years ago; the amount of hate, anger, lewdness, lawlessness, upheaval, disrespect, constant lies and spin, laws being passed calling evil good and good evil, unconstitutional SCOTUS decisions being rendered, lighting up the White House in gay colors in celebration, on and on. Politicians, Mayors, Governor's, Congressman, prosecuting attorneys, the major news media; supporting, encouraging and coddling violent and destructive protests, and bringing charges on those whom try to defend themselves. Would anyone though that possible and come upon us so quickly? Who'd a thunk? 

I would categorize the current political correctness, socialist and inclusion climate of accepting and celebrating evil by one verse:

Proverbs 16:25 (KJV) There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

[Logostician]

On 7/25/2020 at 5:04 PM, R. Hartono said:

Moses n Elijah have appeared to meet Jesus witnessing His ministry for the end Times purpose of witnessing to people in the great Tribulation.

I tend to agree.  Moses, the great law giver, and Elijah, the great prophet appear at the transfiguration of Jesus.  They discuss the things to come.  Elijah was translated to heaven.  Moses was buried by God.  Nobody else I know of was buried by God.  It's mysterious enough to make me think that God took Moses like he took Enoch and Elijah.  However, there is also some logic to Enoch being one of the two witnesses as well, in addition to his translation by God.  Enoch preceded Noah during the time when the world was approaching destruction by the great flood.  He was God's primary witness in this largely godless time.

Jude 14-15

And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these saying behold the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints to execute judgement upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and all of their ungodly speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

The great flood and great tribulation both entail the purifying destruction of the world at their respective times.  First with water, and then with fire.

2 Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Enoch may announce both judgements of God.

As a side note, destruction by water and fire are also divine purification.  There is a parallel here to baptism.

Mat 3:11

I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear.  He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

The great flood (water) and the fast approaching end times (fire) are both divine means to purify this world just as our own repentance and receiving of the Spirit purify us.  This purification has to happen regardless of the trauma that it entails.  And the two witnesses will turn people to God even during these traumatic times, especially after they are killed and resurrected as Jesus was.

Rev 11:13

And the same hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand AND THE REMNANT WERE AFFRIGHTED AND GAVE GLORY TO THE GOD OF HEAVEN.

God has a purpose for everything.  Even the hard things.  He is purifying all things to usher in his everlasting kingdom.