JERUSALEM IS FALLING

[Justin Adams]

26 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Seriously: was any thought put into that post?

Just want to make sure whatever canon you are seeming to refer to that it has rifling and therefore is accurate. An observation for people less studied to maybe think about.

[Alive]

Another argument about canon and translations isn't appropriate now----there are a ton of them on the forum.

;-)

[abcdef]

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

The true Jerusalem, the true city of peace (jeru = city, salem = peace), is the Church. You're not going to like what I post next. You're not going to like it because it's going to confront what you believe but it is straight out of the Bible, not human end-times doctrines.

I like scripture, post all you want, share the joy.

 

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

Hebrews 12:7-25
"It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline?  But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.  Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?  For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness.  All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.  Therefore, strengthen the hands that are weak and the knees that are feeble,  and make straight paths for your feet, so that the limb which is lame may not be put out of joint, but rather be healed.  Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.  See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;  that there be no immoral or godless person like Esau, who sold his own birthright for a single meal.  For you know that even afterwards, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought for it with tears.  For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,  and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.  For they could not bear the command, 'If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.' And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, 'I am full of fear and trembling.'  But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels,  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,  and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.  See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven."

Yes

7 hours ago, Josheb said:

This eschatology you're asserting was invented in the mid-1800s. I know you're simultaneously provoked to refute that and stirred with a little wonder, "Is that true?" and "If so then so what?" So look it up. Do a little research of the history of your eschatology.

The Word of God, a word written by a regenerate believer to regenerate believers about regenerate believers under the inspiration of the one and only Holy Spirit declared and plainly stated those first century believers - and by extensions all Christians who have ived since then even those of us alive and reading the scriptures today - we've all already come to the city of peace. It is the heavenly Jerusalem but it is also hear on earth; "the general assembly and the ecclesia of the firstborn." That's you and me. 

I'm not adding anything to the scripture; I'm not subtracting anything from it. The author of Hebrews is quoting from the OT. He's referencing the OT prophets like Isaiah 1, 14, 45, and 60 and Jeremiah 17, 22, 25, and 33. Look it up if there's any disagreement or doubt. Let God's word confirm what you're reading. Don't make this about my flesh versus your flesh. 

This "two-covenant," "two-purposes," "two kingdoms" view of the end times arose during the early and mid-1800s at a time when what is now called the "restoration movements" arose. These were the Millerites, the Campbellites, the brethren, the SDAs, the CoCs, Darbyism, the JWs, and the LDS. Some of them were well within the mainstream of Christian thought, doctrine, and practice and some of them were far, far afield of centuries of long-held and well-established Christian thought, doctrine, and practice. Seriously. I cannot emphasize this enought: in one way or another these sects departed from views the Church had held for centuries! Nowadays these sects are considered okay but every one of them has either corrected their errors or has some element that is new and different (and wrong). All the denoms have error; I'm not saying they don't. I'm simply saying the apocalyptic sects that arose in the early 1800s contain very specific problems that did not previously exist. 

These restoration sects asserted two fundamental beliefs: 1) the Church is apostate, and 2) the end is coming. Understand this correctly: 1) the body of Christ is corrupt according to these folks, and 2) the end is coming real soon by which they all originally mean it was coming in the 19th century. 

Every single one of them was wrong. 

The end did not come in the 19th century so they have continued to teach the apocalyptic views even though not a single one of those sects has ever produced a teacher who ever got the predictions correct. Not a single sect. Not a single teacher.

These are the guys you're following, abcdef. They have a 100% fail-rate when it comes to predicting the end. 

You believe 1967 is the critical date but before that it was 1948 and when the forty years, and then the 80 years that are thought to be the measure of a "generation" came and went they set a new date. 1948 was replaced with 1967. That buys them some more time. The 40 year mark has transpired all those predictions about the tribulation, or the rapture, or the second coming happening in the late 90s or early 00s ALL proved incorrect. Now all the apocalyptic believers are looking for a new next end time, something before the generation of 1967 expires. 

Even though modern Israel looks NOTHING like ancient covenant Israel. 

 

And my post is about more than the "resurrected Jerusalem." They idea that Jews have to go through a series of events, and conditions, and actions is a works-based salvation!!!!! Your teachers will tell you that in the end they come to Christ because of John 14:6 but but what they are telling you is all the stuff the go through first is works. That makes the entire paradigm a works+grace soteriology, not a grace-through-faith soteriology. This is another radical departure from long-held and well-established Chruch doctrine, views held since the days of the gospels and epsitolary all the way up until the 1800s and most of the Chruch does not believe this way. It is a very popular view, one sensationalized in end-times books and movies, one profited upon by televangelists and false prognosticators, but it is not and never has been the prevailing view. It not only teaches a bad eschatology; it teaches a bad soteriology.

I mentioned the view the Church is corrupt. You can find such posts in this very forum and every single one of thoe believers who hold this view are two-kingdom believers, dispensationalist in one way or another, even if they do not follow John Darby. The restorationists originall taught Christians needed to separate from the institutional Church. The Protestants had separated from the Roman Catholic Church but they in turn had become corrupt and it was time for another separation - another restoration. So join us! Join the brethren! Join the true church, the Church of Christ! No, it's us; it's the Seventh Day Adventists! We're the true Church. This restoration movement further fractured the Church, the body of Christ, by arguing Christ's body was corrupt and a new body - a body they were creating to restore and replace the old - was/is needed. At its worst cults like the JWs and LFDs exploited this. It not only teaches a bad eschatology; it teaches a bad ecclesiology. 

There's more, but I will mention only one other problem, one other doctrinal problem. That of formal Theology, or Christology. According to the restorational apocalyptic sects that constantly teach failed prognostications of end-time events God doesn't have any interest in this world, nothing we do now will have any eternal significance, the world is going to go to hell in a handbasket and God is letting all this happen to the point of the Church becoming ineffective, satan winning, and Jesus having to come and remove his follows from the earth so satan can have his way in spite of piles of scripture that teach God is sovereign, not even the gates of hell will prevail over the ecclesia, and satan is a defeated adversary. In other words, this view isn't just bad end times, bad ecclesiology, bad soteriology, it is bad Theology, bad Christology. 

The problems are subtle, but serious. 

 

Now I know that's a lot to unload on you. Take this post, print it up and take some time to investigate what I have said. 

Or don't. 

The book of Hebrews tells us we have come to the resurrected Jerusalem - the Jerusalem spoken of by the Old Testament prophets. The text actually states we have come to the heavenly Jerusalem. How can earthly being come to a heavenly city? Well, that's a problem for two-kingdoms thinking. The matter has to be "spiritualized," even though most of those sects decry spiritualizing prophesy. In other words, they practice that which they report to disdain and that over which they criticize others. I trust you know what this is ordinarily called. I also trust you don't want to be that guy. Sit with Hebrews 12:22. Sit with the truth of Hebrews 12:22. We have come to the city of peace. Those prophesies were fulfilled in Christ and his resurrected body and his body the Church. 

Galatians 4:21-31
"Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not listen to the law?  For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman.  But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise.  Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar.  Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia; she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.  But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.  For it is written, 'Rejoice, O barren one who does not bear; break forth and cry aloud, you who are not in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than those of the one who has a husband.'  Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.  But just as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so also it is now.  But what does the Scripture say? 'Cast out the slave woman and her son, for the son of the slave woman shall not inherit with the son of the free woman.'  So, brothers, we are not children of the slave but of the free woman."

Watch what happens next. a handful of our fellow brothers and sisters are going to comment and inquire about this post. Most of it will bring up scriptures other than those I just quoted. ALL of them will "interpret" the texts they quote to say things the texts don't actually stated. They will NOT begin with what is stated as stated, plainly read and they will not work through the text based on what is stated to the scripturally-informed, scripturally-dictated inferences. I bring this to your attention because I want you to watch them and see hat they do. Those who share your pov will mishandle God's word right before you very eyes and when I point that out they'll resort to ad hominem, red herrings, straw men, question my salvation, some will even say mean things about me directly to me (Gal. 5). In other words, their method will be just as bad as their content. I also say this to you in hopes those reading will for once do something different. 

I've given you New Testament scripture. I have given you new Testament scripture that interprets the Old Testament for us! I did not give you my eschatology. I want you to take note of that. All I have done so far is give you some scripture to consider in light of this idea 1967 saw Jerusalem resurrected in fulfillment of OT prophesy. 

Hebrews 12 says we've already arrived. 
Galatians 4 tells us the physical city of Jerusalem is not our "mother."

Who are you going to believe? Modern end-times teachers whose predictions have had a 100% fail rate over the course of two centuries, or scripture and what it actually states, as written, plainly read, with nothing added to it or subtracted from it? Reason tells us the modern Israel bears absolutely no resemblance to covenant Israel except in name only. Hard to have a resurrected city if the country in which it exists hasn't also been resurrected. Scripture is our friend. Soo too is reason. 

Think about it. 

For some reason I was unable to divide your post.

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You have made many assumptions about what I believe.

Have you red any of the previous posts that clarify my position?

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Your statements seem to indicate that you do not believe that God still has covenant promises with the unbelieving broken flesh branches of Israel.

The unbelieving broken branches are not in the Holy Spirit kingdom. But they are still beloved for the fathers' sakes.  Many covenant promises made to Israel by God were fulfilled by Jesus and the new covenant.

The promise made by Jesus in Lk 21:20-24, 24, shows that Jerusalem will be restored to the people of Israel when the trampling time of the gentiles is over. That is a promise made to the flesh of Israel and is not fulfilled in the spiritual kingdom in Heb 12:22-24. 

Rom 11:28, "... they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes."

11:29, "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

11:25, "... blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the gentiles be come in."

When the fullness of the gentiles is come in, the blindness of the unbelieving broken flesh branches will be removed. Then the flesh broken branches will believe. 

But don't look for this to happen on a national scale, as if this present Israel turns into a Christian nation. Many individuals yes, but not as a nation. 

 

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Your assertion that some of what I am saying is from the past is true because we all stand on the shoulders of those who have come before us. I don't follow any one person, except Jesus. There is no group, denomination, or website to go to with what I am saying, just little me.

But if you will give me a little time, you will understand that what I am saying is a  different time line than any others that have come before us. This time line could not be completely understood until Jerusalem was restored to Israel in 1967 and after 2003.

Both pretrib and preterism are not correct.

The reason is, that they both leave out the time period after 70 AD.

After 70 AD, preterism has nothing.

After 70 AD, pretrib stops and has nothing to this day.

The truth is that there is no gap in the prophetic time line.

Both theories ignore the prophecies concerning this time period.

 

[douggg]

8 minutes ago, abcdef said:

The truth is that there is no gap in the prophetic time line.

If Jesus's first coming was prophesied.    And since Jesus's prophesied second coming has not happened yet.      How is there no gap in the prophetic time line?

[abcdef]

20 hours ago, douggg said:

adcef.... you were born the same day as me :).      We are close to Jesus's return, but we have the bulk of the end times events still ahead.

Please watch my you tube videos regarding the timeline...

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Dougg,

I watched your first video, and and some of the other 2. 

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I believe that the passages in Ezek 38-39, were fulfilled long ago. The reason is that the weapons are bows, arrows, spears, etc..

The Magog war of Rev 20 is here now. It will not be fought swords, bows, and arrows.

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I agree with you that the covenant confirmed in Dan 9 is the OT covenant.

Jesus confirmed the covenant with Israel for 7 years.

He is the prince.

The Dan 9 passage is about the 67-70AD destruction of Jerusalem, not a future event.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[abcdef]

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

If Jesus's first coming was prophesied.

Yes

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

    And since Jesus's prophesied second coming has not happened yet. 

True

5 minutes ago, douggg said:

     How is there no gap in the prophetic time line?

Because the time from 70 AD until now is spoken about in prophecy,

But they are generally applied to different places in the time line were they do not belong.

For example, in Lk 21:24, it talks about the times of the gentiles.

The times of the gentiles were from 70 AD until 1967.

They are past not future.

 

[douggg]

20 minutes ago, abcdef said:

Because the time from 70 AD until now is spoken about in prophecy,

But they are generally applied to different places in the time line were they do not belong.

For example, in Lk 21:24, it talks about the times of the gentiles.

The times of the gentiles were from 70 AD until 1967.

Since the time of the gentiles is prophesied, I do not have any disagreement with you regarding there is no gap - when that prophesied time is taken into account.

What I was thinking of regarding a gap - is in regards to the 70 weeks.   A gap from the end of the 69 weeks (Jesus's crucifixion) to the beginning of the 70th week.    There is a gap there.

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by douggg

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, douggg said:

Since the time of the gentiles is prophesied, I do not have any disagreement with you regarding there is no gap - when that prophesied time is taken into account.

What I was thinking of regarding a gap - is in regards the 70 weeks.   A gap from the end of the 69 weeks (Jesus's crucifixion) to the beginning of the 70th week.    There is a gap there.

Jesus the prince began His ministry at the end of the 69th week, the beginning of the 70th week Dan 9:25.

After 3 1/2 years He was killed, resurrected, and the promised kingdom began on Pentecost.

These events were all confirming the OT covenant promises of a new covenant and confirming the new covenant.

The 7 year confirmation period ended when Israel rejected the new covenant and the unbelieving branches were broken off, 7 years after Jesus began His ministry of confirming the covenant.

So the 70 weeks ended in 37 AD when Israel rejected the confirmed covenant.

No gap.

 

 

 

[abcdef]

23 hours ago, douggg said:

The first five verses in Revelation 12:1-5 were past.    

What about Rev 12:6?

Isn't it part of the past of John in the 85-96 AD ish time period?

You believe that vs. 1-5 are in John's recent past in 96 AD.

Wouldn't v 6 be in the same past time period? Showing the 70 AD ish scattering of the woman Israel into the wilderness gentile nations?

[abcdef]

9 hours ago, Biblican said:

I don't have time to answer all of this now.

No? It takes time to study and find the answers for yourself.

In this day and age, few souls do find the time.

 

9 hours ago, Biblican said:

Again, if you want my perspective on Revelation it's all here. - https://www.cafelogos.org/revelation.html

You are just going to accept everything they say without question because.......?

You don't have the time?

I believe you.

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