JERUSALEM IS FALLING

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On 1/23/2021 at 5:56 PM, Josheb said:

Fail. 

Israel is not only the descendants of Jacob and not all descendants of Jacob are Israel. Israel is the people of calling and promise coming first from Abraham, then Isaac, and then Jacob and they are a covenant people. All four of those criteria and more is specified in scripture and modern Israel does not qualify. 

 

And you most definitely have not done the work here to prove otherwise. You've assumed it; not proven it. 

And as far as I can tell from the posts this is something you didn't investigate before accepting the teaching (from wherever it was first received). So someone like me comes along pointing out the very real, valid, legitimate problems with this "model" and you automatically think I'm wrong and you're right but you don't in any way prove it, especially not with anything close to well-rendered scripture.

 

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They are not all Israel who are of Israel and that is just as true today as it was in Paul's day. 

So, are there any Christians in the present nation of Israel?

Are there any people who are the flesh descendants of Jacob, who are now Christians with the Holy Spirit, living there? 

How many? 1,000's? 10,000's? 100,000's?

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You say that this present nation of Israel bears no resemblance to the Israel of the kings?

Well maybe they will have to do away with cars and go back to carts and horses.

There were no planes or airports then, so they can go.

People wore robes and headscarves, had slaves, and there were no cell phones or TV's.

What will you think of next?

 

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And I should not have to keep repeating that to get you to consider it it from a Biblical perspective. Israel is not only the descendants of Jacob and not all descendants of Jacob are Israel. 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by abcdef

[abcdef]

On 1/23/2021 at 6:44 PM, Josheb said:

So you think there are two or three antichrists and the antichrist in Revelation is different than that of 70 AD? 

 

Is the only reason for thinking there is another antichrist the dating of Revelation?If so then you should definitely give the book Alive recommended a read. 

The Antichrist of Rome lasts from the Caesars to this day.

It is not one person or one life time, it spans centuries.

 

[Biblican]

19 hours ago, Josheb said:

So I have now asked three times for anything resembling an affirmative case for the stated position and four times read absolutely nothing of the kind. As far as the evidence goes it looks like there is no such case. There's no reasonable or rational explanation for believing that position. There's no cogent or coherent explanation for believing that position. There's is definitely no scriptural explanation for that position presented. I have already addressed the Zechariah 14 text. You cited it but did nothing to address the specific of your position of my dissent. You've once again avoided the matter entirely and without substance. Whether unwilling or incapable does not matter because both end up with the same outcome: a belief in something that cannot or will not be evidenced. There can be no proof without evidence and despite my repeated requests for you to do so none appears. 

So, having said my piece and seeing it ignored AND asking for an affirmative case and seeing that ignored I'll now be moving on to let the exchange speak for itself. I provided a brief case loaded with scripture for my position and even though there is some agreement with that content there is nothing forthcoming about the stated alternative and along the way a series of fallacies were deployed in avoidance of any affirmative case. Titus 3:9-11.

That is the testimony. 

I can live with that. 

I truly hope for better the next time we trade posts. See you in the next op. 

The problem is I have presented scriptural evidence, but you don't accept the holy scriptures as evidence because your mind has been preprogrammed by man's doctrines. Typical case of the "Mad Hatter Syndrome" as I have said before.

[Biblican]

19 hours ago, Josheb said:

Yes, and none of them support modern Israel as relevant to prophesy. NONE of them. For 20 centuries there was no Israel. How could a non-existent country be considered "the doctrines that the first century apostles taught"? 

Do you hear how preterist that reads? Should we now digress into tangent vilifying preterism as you have done? 

For twenty centuries the majority of the Church never held to the thinking you've asserted, nor the doctrines, nor the practices. What the apostles of the first century taught was not specifically nor directly about the 19th, 20th or 21st centuries and the fact that three centuries have come and gone since the futurist doctrines asserted over "Jerusalem is falling," should give you pause. That it does not give you pause is a matter I encourage you to consider, especially since you appeal to a preterist interpretation to justify your dispute with Justin. 

Utter lack of consistency. 

Your utter lack of understanding of Biblical prophecy, similitudes, foreshadows and typologies has been evident in all of your posts trying to undermine the authority of the scriptures in their accounts of Israel's invasion and captivity in the latter days before Jesus' return. Jesus comes back in the future and Satan is bound at that time. In the meantime we still have to cast demons out of people as I have done with others. Satan is not bound as evident as we look around the world today. And it is Satan's delight to continually veil the minds of those who are inadvertently working to promote doctrines that allow him to hid and do his work in the shadows.

[Alive]

OK folks---please stick to the topic and refrain form ad hominem responses.

When it comes to end times stuff, there are a myriad opinions. Brother differing with brother. An open mind, that has reviewed the various positions must realize that much is exactly that--'opinion'.

Make a case well rendered using scripture alone and the merits of the case, is far easier to judge--and yet the nature of eschatology still leaves much to be desired.

THe Lord Himself is paying attention to how we conduct ourselves--which is far more important than being right.

[Biblican]

12 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Nice ad hominem. Duly noted as such and treated accordingly. That was just one more post that does nothing to make an affirmative case for your position. Attacking me does not prove your case; it proves your character. 

Pardon me, but it is not my intention to attack your character, I apologize if that's what you think I am doing. I am just making an assessment of your ability to comprehend scripture. No one who has been saturated with man inspired doctrine can understand scripture properly.  That is a fact. The scriptures must be the defining element and the last word.

[Biblican]

9 minutes ago, Josheb said:

The posts prove otherwise. Merely alluding to a chapter in a book is not "presenting scripture." What little was provided was handled poorly, eisegetically, not exegetically. 

The problem is you have NOT presented scripture. You have in fact acknowledged the modern state does not bear any resemblance to Biblical Israel. You have not presented a rational case, scripturally or otherwise, how a nation that bears no resemblance can be a restoration when it bears no resemblance! 

It is a country with the name "Israel," but it is not a restoration of Israel. It is at best the restoration of a name. Can't have a Jerusalem fulfilling prophesy if the country in which it exists is not fulfilled prophesy. 

Israel does not have to be "restored Israel" to be present in Biblical prophecy. Israel will not be properly restored until Jesus returns and the land is designated to her by Him as we are shown in Ezekiel's prophecy. The scriptures show that before Jesus returns the Jewish people who are located in that same place as ancient Israel and will undergo another captivity (Zechariah 14). That is Israel in modern Bible prophecy. I do not agree with your assessment of Zechariah 14. Her invasion is also shown in Rev. 11. Again, I am not a Preterist, I do not follow man made doctrines, neither did the apostles and I follow them. 'Bye. I have errands to run.

[abcdef]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Sure! There are more Christians in the present nation of biblical Israel than there are Jews. Millions, possibly billions of Gentiles have been grafted into the existing tree of Israel and we are now a nation of royal priests as members of God's holy nation; the temple of God. See Romans 11:17; 1 Peter 2:9; and 1 Corinthians 3:16 among many other relevant passages).

So, there are no broken branches left alive in this present age? No descendants of the flesh Jacob anywhere?

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Are you saying that God is not able to graft them in again? Rom 11:23, Says that He is able to graft them in again.

Will you say that they have stumbled and fallen from grace? Rom 11:11, says they stumbled but did not fall (from grace).

Will you say that God has cast away His people? Rom 11:1, God forbid.

Will you say that there is not remnant, of the flesh of Jacob? Rom 11:5, "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace."

Will you say that God's grace is based on the works of the Jews in this present age, Are they keeping the Law?  Rom 11:6, "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: ..."

You are saying the exact opposite of these scriptures,

saying that God is not able to graft them back in, because there are no more real Jews, the flesh of Jacob.

It doesn't matter if they are keeping the Law or not if it is by grace.

If it is by grace, and not works, then that would exclude the "works" of land borders requirements.

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Show me where the broken flesh branches were grafted back in before 70 AD, You can't. History shows that shortly after the writing of Romans the temple and Jerusalem were destroyed, not grafted back in.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

These are more reasons how and why Christians should understand the claim of a restored Israel has not happened. The modern geo-political nation-state that bears the name "Israel" is not Israel in anything except name.

 Can any nation exist against the will of God?......No.

Then this Israel must exist by the will of God.

If this Israel exists by the will of God,

Shall we say no, it is only a random thing, a thing that happened by the will of men exclusively? God had nothing, to do with it?

That is your argument, it is random, it is men. But in saying that, you are excluding God and the grace of God towards the flesh descendants of Jacob.

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

The better question to ask might be "Are there any Jews in Israel?"

I did ask you, maybe you missed it. What is your answer, to your question?

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

because secularized cultural Jews are no more Jewish than their Christian counterparts are Christian. Being born to Christian parent and raised in a Christian household does not make a person Christian. 

Are  you saying that there only "fake" Christians and Jews in the present land mass called Israel right now? That there are no real members of the kingdom/church there now?

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Being a flesh descendant of Jacob DOES make a difference, according to the grace of God.

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The kingdom/church of Israel is wild gentile branches and natural flesh branches Israel.

How many members, of the spiritual kingdom/church, Jew and gentile, have to be living in the present land mass of Israel, for it to be considered restored?

You believe that the people of God must be living there, they are.

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Why do you get to pick which border that the nation of Israel is restored to?

Why not pick the borders that it had when Israel was divided with Judah?

Why not pick the borders it had at the time of king Saul?

If it is by grace, then it is not about the exact border that encompasses a nation and that has changed over centuries.

[abcdef]

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is the definition of partial-preterism. 

The answer to the timeline of prophecy is in the middle of pretrib and preterism.

Both exclude the time period after 70 AD until this present day.

Both were developed by the RCC to hide the fact that the Antichrist was Caesar and the Bishop of Rome. 

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

Says who?

Sesame

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

That is simply untrue. That time ended in the first century.

Do you believe that everything in the Bible was finished by 70 AD? All Bible prophecies were fulfilled by 70 AD?

That there is nothing after 70 AD in the Bible?

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

If this is truly what you believe partial-preterism asserts and that is what you argue against then the entire endeavor is a straw man.

Since what I am saying is a different time line than anything heard before, it will not fit into a box that some one else made.

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

Partial-preterism does not hold there was a resurrection in 70 AD other than that which occurred at Calvary and occurs at regeneration.

When will Jesus appear second time without sin unto salvation?  Heb 9:28?

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

Partial-prets make distinction between the last days plural and the last day singular. Here again, if this is what you believe about partial-preterism and argue against that position then the entire effort is a straw man.

And what box do you put yourself in? Pure preterism? partial preterism?

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

What will you do when 2021 comes and goes and nothing hypothesized if these posts happens? Will you be accountable to everyone here for the errors posted? Will we read any report of repentance? Will you reconsider the veracity of futurism or will you do like all the other false teachers have done and simply change the dates and timeframes? In other words, do you assert these positions with any awareness of their potential consequences if time proves them untrue? 

Well, I might not have been clear about what the timing is, typing it the way I did.

1967 was the restoration of Jerusalem to complete the restoration of Israel.

2021 is where we are now,

In the the coming years or months, Jerusalem will fall. There is no set date for this event given to men.

3 1/2 days later the 7th/last trumpet will blow and the resur/rapt will happen.

 

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

You've got partial-preterism wrong. Give it another examination. 

Are you a partial preterist? or a pure preterist?

[douggg]

23 minutes ago, Josheb said:

None of it in any way proves the position asserts, that modern Israel has a place in prophesy. Some future Israel might have a place in prophesy but that does not mean this Israel does. 

The Israel over there right now is in bible prophesy.    It is the nation born in a day in Isaiah 66:8.

And Jerusalem back in the hands of the Jews in 1967, Jerusalem being the fig tree, is the parable of the fig tree generation, when all the end times bible prophecies will be fulfilled.

Israel over there right now is the nation to be attacked by Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 38 in the latter days, latter years.

Israel over there right now is the nation who will acknowledge Jesus as the Lord their God in Ezekiel 39:22.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by douggg