JERUSALEM IS FALLING

[iamlamad]

1 minute ago, Justin Adams said:

Sad, but they are all wrong. Daniel was finished before the end of the first century and Revelation is its commentary.

You are certainly allowed your opinion. It seems it is you and a few against untold millions. 

[Justin Adams]

10 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

You are certainly allowed your opinion. It seems it is you and a few against untold millions. 

Thanks for allowing me my opinion. Someone has to point out there are different views other than TBN and the DTS plus the myriads of Darby/Scofield's followers. People should study for themselves and not be pressured from the TV and pulpits. Generally, dispensationalism is a non starter. We now have a host of WWW sites where we can review original languages and study for ourselves what just a few years ago was left to the 'priestly' class to present to an unsuspecting congregation.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Justin Adams

[iamlamad]

58 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Thanks for allowing me my opinion. Someone has to point out there are different views other than TBN and the DTS plus the myriads of Darby/Scofield's followers. People should study for themselves and not be pressured from the TV and pulpits. Generally, dispensationalism is a non starter. We now have a host of WWW sites where we can review original languages and study for ourselves what just a few years ago was left to the 'priestly' class to present to an unsuspecting congregation.

: -)))  It is true, there are other views, though I think they are minority views. I think you do "Darby / Scofield" followers a disservice, imagining that they don't study for themselves. As for "dispensations" it is a fact of scripture that there is a difference between living under the law as in the Old Testament and living by faith and walking by the Spirit in the New. Can you at least admit that much?

[iamlamad]

18 hours ago, abcdef said:

*The 144000 are all resurrected souls from Israel which were resurrected with Jesus at the first resurrection. They are seen in heaven with Jesus and John during the 85-96 AD ish time period. They are sealed against the second death. They are not future to us, but have been with Jesus since the first resurrection in 33 AD. Jacob, Moses, David, Daniel, John the Baptist who was beheaded by the Roman beast during the Roman tribulation/trouble, etc.

*The multitude which no man could number Rev 7:9-17, are gentile souls who lived and died before the first resurrection 33 AD. Adam, Able, Noah, Abraham, Issac.

*Souls from the 33AD new covenant gospel kingdom of Israel/church are not shown. They are the dead in Christ who will rise before the living at the second resurrection (rapture) when Jesus comes for the kingdom. Then it is the end, 1 Cor 15:23-28. 

Two resurrections,

*1, Jesus and the good/saved OT saints. No one from the new covenant Pentecost kingdom is resurrected in 33 AD. The Pentecost kingdom/church hadn't begun yet. The saints from OT are the ones seen with John and Jesus in 96 AD ish.

*2, Jesus comes for the Pentecost kingdom/church at the resur/rapt 2nd coming. All the souls, both good and evil are resurrected who died after the first resurrection in 33 AD. John 5:25-29.

*The Pentecost kingdom of Israel is not taken to heaven until the 7th/last trumpet of Rev 11, which is the resur/rapt. Then it is the end.

 

*The kingdom/church is on planet earth until Jesus comes for us. After that, there is no planet left except fire, the fire from heaven Rev 20.

*It is not the kingdom/church that is seen with Jesus and John in 96 AD ish, but the OT saints from the first resurrection.

 

*The 70th week began when Jesus began His ministry.

*It ended 7 years later when Israel rejected the new covenant Pentecost kingdom.

*Then the unbelieving natural branches were broken off.

 

*The seventh seal was broken in the 85-96 AD ish time period by Jesus with John.

*After that and since then, the 7 seal book has been open for everyone to read. (The story of the people of Israel from 70 AD until the 7th/last trumpet, 2 witnesses.)

*It has been open for 1900 years.

 

*But Rev 10 doesn't say that the Antichrist enters a temple. You have added a lot of things that are not there, to make it fit a preconceived (7 year) timeline.

I was hoping there was something I could agree with. I disagree with every paragraph with an * and that was every paragraph. 

[Alive]

2 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

: -)))  It is true, there are other views, though I think they are minority views. I think you do "Darby / Scofield" followers a disservice, imagining that they don't study for themselves. As for "dispensations" it is a fact of scripture that there is a difference between living under the law as in the Old Testament and living by faith and walking by the Spirit in the New. Can you at least admit that much?

I have a question and it applies to everyone who reads Revelation in these days:

When you read it and developed an understanding of what you think it means, did you do so in a vacuum--or had you been exposed to an interpretation prior, during and since?

What was it that you were exposed to that guided your current understanding?

I think these are largely rhetorical questions, but I think we can all agree that there has been some influence that was used as a starting place when studying ourselves.

That being the case, doesn't it make sense to investigate where that came from and just how it came about, who, why and in what context.

So let's say there was a starting point that one bases their understanding on. If that starting point is false then is it possible that everything that follows is askew or even very wrong?

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, Alive said:

That being the case, doesn't it make sense to investigate where that came from and just how it came about, who, why and in what context.

So let's say there was a starting point that one bases their understanding on. If that starting point is false then is it possible that everything that follows is askew or even very wrong?

Excellent points. (now duck)

[Alive]

3 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Excellent points. (now duck)

LOL

I have stated many times, that I have no dog in this fight. Eschatology has never been a focus for me--until recently other than expecting the Lord at some time and hoping for a quick return, I had no developed doctrine. I've never been led to study Rev and when reading it over the years--I got no enlightenment. Only a sense that it doesn't make sense--to me.

Yet the Lord has taught many other things.

Anyway--it makes perfect sense that most of what Jesus talked about occurred in the late 60's and 70 ad. As far as the rest goes--I just don't know. I am certain that there has been influence since Darby, et all---that should be looked at carefully because it has generated much that is obviously false and continues to do so. This is patently obvious.

1. because things said to come to pass haven't--many times.

2. so many are convinced God has shown them the truth (eschatologically) and yet these souls are in conflict with one another.

So--given these points and others, I decided to start from scratch and set aside what by osmosis I had accumulated.

I can see no wrong in this approach.

[iamlamad]

42 minutes ago, Alive said:

I have a question and it applies to everyone who reads Revelation in these days:

When you read it and developed an understanding of what you think it means, did you do so in a vacuum--or had you been exposed to an interpretation prior, during and since?

What was it that you were exposed to that guided your current understanding?

I think these are largely rhetorical questions, but I think we can all agree that there has been some influence that was used as a starting place when studying ourselves.

That being the case, doesn't it make sense to investigate where that came from and just how it came about, who, why and in what context.

So let's say there was a starting point that one bases their understanding on. If that starting point is false then is it possible that everything that follows is askew or even very wrong?

Good question: for me, God pushed me into studying Revelation. I had no desire. But in obedience I began reading. Then His push got so strong, for three years I read nothing else but Daniel and Revelation, over and over. Then, after about 3 years of reading, NOT trying to understand with my human understanding, God spoke and began teaching me. I don't mean I ate too much pizza, or had a vivid imagination. He spoke with what sounded like an audible voice. He usually taught be asking questions I could not answer, then showing me how to answer by scripture. I had determined when I began that I would know NOTHING unless He taught me. I guess He took me up on that. 

If you wish to know His words, I will share.

[Alive]

4 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

Good question: for me, God pushed me into studying Revelation. I had no desire. But in obedience I began reading. Then His push got so strong, for three years I read nothing else but Daniel and Revelation, over and over. Then, after about 3 years of reading, NOT trying to understand with my human understanding, God spoke and began teaching me. I don't mean I ate too much pizza, or had a vivid imagination. He spoke with what sounded like an audible voice. He usually taught be asking questions I could not answer, then showing me how to answer by scripture. I had determined when I began that I would know NOTHING unless He taught me. I guess He took me up on that. 

If you wish to know His words, I will share.

And what if they are in conflict with what other sincere brethren declare that God has taught them?

[iamlamad]

48 minutes ago, Alive said:

...

So let's say there was a starting point that one bases their understanding on. If that starting point is false then is it possible that everything that follows is askew or even very wrong?

This is a very good point. I find many people imagine the seals as end times, yet IN CONTEXT (chapters 4 & 5) Jesus got the book and began opening the seals as soon as He ascended - around 32 AD. That is why I see the first seal is the church sent out with the Gospel. I have found that some commentaries agree. 

Then I believe that seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel, using wars, famines, pestilences and wild beasts. This is in agreement with Jesus discourse on the end times.  However, God limited their theater of operation to only 1/4 of the earth. It makes sense that that 1/4 is centered on Jerusalem where the gospel started. 

Seal 5 is for the martyrs of the church age.

Therefore, while much of the church world is imagining end times in the first seals, John was at the beginning of the church.  Even men like Larkin and his many charts imagined the seals were the start of the 70th week. These men did not understand God's message of chapters 4 & 5:

1. A throne room with Jesus not seen.
2. A throne room with the Holy Spirit - when Jesus said He would send Him down.
3. A search for one worthy that ended in failure and "no man was found."
4. Then after TIME passed, Jesus was found.
5. Jesus then suddenly appears in the throne room that before He seemed absent.
6. Jesus then sends the Holy Spirit down and gets the book.