7 year tribulation

[John n Claudia]

On 8/11/2020 at 5:35 PM, Charlie744 said:

I have been studying Daniel and have found that there are so many folks that refer to a “7 year tribulation” which will occur at the end of time and will center on an “anti-Christ” figure.

Charlie,

The seven year tribulation period is based on Daniel 9:24 - 27 which describes 70 "weeks".  For this prophesy, every day corresponds to one year, so 70 weeks is 490 days and this means that the rest of the passage is going to describe events that will occur over 490 years.

The weeks are divided into three sections.  There are 6 weeks or 6*7 = 42 years, followed by 62 weeks or 62*7 = 434 years followed by 1 week. or 1 * 7 = 7 years.  The first two sets defined the time period it would take to get to Jesus dying on the cross about 2000 years ago.  The last week is about what will happen at the end, right before Jesus will return.  When you read this passage, you will see that the transition to the last week occurs in verse 26 where after the messiah is cut off and has nothing, the people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and sanctuary (or temple).  The key thing to realize here is that the last week is talking about the people of a prince to come and not Jesus.  This prince is the antichrist and this verse is saying that the Antichrist will stick around for seven years.  Verse 27 then tells us that halfway through the week, or after 3.5 years, the Antichrist will conquer the Jews and Jerusalem, putting a stop to the daily prayers and offerings.

Jeremiah 30:5 - 7 adds some color to this and tells us that there will be terror throughout Israel, men holding their stomachs out of fear.  In verse 7 we are told that this is the time of Jacob's trouble and it is from this verse that we get the term "tribulation".  Over time, people have combined this passage in Jeremiah with the passage in Daniel and divided the seven year time period into two 3.5 year sections, the first called the tribulation and the second called the Great Tribulation because it will be much worse than the first half.

Zechariah 14:2 adds even more color to this where it says that many of the Jews will be killed, women will be ravished and of those who survive, half will be sent to concentration camps scattered around the empire of the Antichrist and the other half will remain imprisoned in Jerusalem.

Daniel 11:40 - 45 gives us even more information.  Verse 40 tells us that the Antichrist will fight a two front war with countries in the north and south.  Verse 41 then tells us that after the Antichrist wins this war, he will enter the "glorious land", or the land of Israel.  This is the midpoint of the seven year period.  It is at this time that the Abomination that causes desolation will occur and the prophecies in Jeremiah and Zechariah above will be fulfilled.  Verse 44 is particularly interesting because it says that near the end of the seven year period of the Antichrist, the Antichrist will get news from the east and go out to destroy and devote many many to destruction.  I say that this is interesting because Revelation 16:12 - 16 tells us that around this same time, the Euphrates will dry up to prepare the way for the king of the east and Revelation 9:13 - 16 says that angels bound by the Euphrates will be released (when the river dries up?) and there would be an army of 200 million people coming from that direction, east of empire of the the Antichrist.

So, with regard to your question, the verses above show where the terminology came from.  Personally, I refer to the entire seven year period as the period of the Antichrist and not the Tribulation because I believe that for most of the first 3.5 years the Antichrist will be busy consolidating his power.  He will not be that concerned with Israel until most of the 3.5 years is over, so this means that there will not be much more difficulty for the Jews than what they are experiencing today.  However, things do change drastically at the midpoint and I do call the last 3.5 years the Great Tribulation because this is the time when the Jews will be in concentration camps that will be much worse than what they experienced under Hitler during WW2.

With regard to the Antichrist, a full explanation would require twice what I have already written.  Right now, he is just a man.  He only becomes the Antichrist after Satan possesses him and gives him supernatural power a little bit before the time of the abomination.  He is called the Antichrist because he does the opposite of what Christ did when He came 2000 years ago.  Christ was rejected by religuous leaders, the Antichrist will be celebrated by them.  Christ came to win a spiritual war, the Antichrist will come to win a physical war.  Christ came to suffer and die for others, the Antichrist will make others suffer and die (physically). 

All of those who listen to and know the voice of Jesus will be able to identify the Antichrist when the abomination occurs and he declares that he is God.  Those of us who are waiting and watching the signs will probably be able to identify this man several years before the abomination occurs.

 

[Charlie744]

John, I don’t know who you are but I love your writing skills! So darn smooth... since coming to this forum I have found a few other members who have wonderful communication skills as well- they could write me a short response telling me (jokingly, of course), “to go to hell”, and because they write beautifully, I would find myself looking forward to the trip!

 I do understand your interpretation of 9:26 and 9:27, and I also understand this is the “accepted interpretation” among MOST folks today, however, I don’t believe “he” is anyone other than the Messiah. And The Messiah is the “he”that will enter into the “new covenant” as mentioned in Jeremiah 31... The “he” is also the One who will fulfill the 6 requirements and will be “cut off” on the midst of Daniel’s last week of the 490 years. 

I do not know if you have had any time or interest in reading all the previous posts to this topic, but even though there is a minority that sees “he” as “He”, there is some nice comments for this position (certainly one from Retrobyter (it is a great read).

Daniel is writing to the Jews and the coming of their Messiah... They would have or better - they SHOULD have recognized and understand the 1) 70 weeks of Daniel- 490 years, 2) they would have understood its 3 separate sections and exactly what “things” would be fulfilled in each of those sections, 3) they would be familiar and aware of the “new covenant” mentioned in Jeremiah, but they would have absolutely NO comprehension of the Messiah being “cut off” or the stopping of the sacrificial system, etc.

But these “things” were done or fulfilled by the Messiah and the verses must refer to Him... 

I don’t understand the basis or support for a “gap” in the 70 weeks. The Messiah arrived and was baptized AFTER the end of the 69th week. His Baptism began the last 7 years. 

I don’t understand how one could think that some anti-Christ figure would enter into a covenant with the Jews some 2,000 years in the future... what do you do with the promised new covenant between Jesus and the Jews and the sacrifice He made (this is the “abomination” / the most horrendous act the Jews or anyone could have done since the beginning of time—- to crucify their Messiah! This act would cause the “desolation” of the Temple, the Sacrificial system, the destruction and disbursement of the Iews, and later the destruction of their land by the Romans by salting the land.

Finally, because the Messiah eliminated the Temple and the Sacrificial system as a result of His crucifixion, ANY new Temple and / or restart of the Sacrificial system has absolutely NO meaning to God- they were done away with and had no further value, consequently, there can NOT be any “abomination”or denigration to a future Temple— it would only have a value to the Jews at that future time. God would no longer consider a Temple as important or holy... it was a shadow or type. They have served their purpose. Actually, if the Jews were to build a 3rd Temple this would be telling Him they still do not accept Him as the Messiah... so why would we or why should we expect these verses in Daniel would be referring to a future event? Makes no sense to me!

You can’t have an “abomination” or denigration of a Temple or anything related to the Jews in the future IF the ONLY value or perceived holiness to an object or system comes NOT from God but is imputed by man (Jews). 

This could go on and on and on... bottom line: Daniel is writing His biography and ALL the horrors and fulfillment’s the Messiah will endure. Thank you very much for your response, Charlie 

[John n Claudia]

8 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

John, I don’t know who you are but I love your writing skills!

Charlie,

Thank you, but the glory all goes to God.  He has blessed me with writing and logic skills and has told me that I am to use those skills to bring glory to Him.

 

11 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I do understand your interpretation of 9:26 and 9:27, and I also understand this is the “accepted interpretation” among MOST folks today, however, I don’t believe “he” is anyone other than the Messiah.

Please believe me when I say that my interpretation of Daniel 7, 8, 9  and 11 does not agree with the "standard" interpretation.  For example, based on my studies of Daniel and Revelation, I have come to the conclusion that Jesus will not return at the Battle of Armageddon, something that puts me at odds with pretty much every other person on the earth.

The reason that I believe "he" in verses 26 and 27 refers to the Antichrist is because it says that "he will make a covenant for one week".  God never makes a short term covenant, those are always forever.  This means that "he" cannot be God or Jesus and must be someone else.

22 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

And The Messiah is the “he”that will enter into the “new covenant” as mentioned in Jeremiah 31... The “he” is also the One who will fulfill the 6 requirements and will be “cut off” on the midst of Daniel’s last week of the 490 years. 

I do not see how Jeremiah 31:31 - 34 has anything to do with Daniel 9:27.  I believe the covenant in Jeremiah 31 will last forever, but for sure it will last at least through the Millennial Kingdom.  This means that it will last at least 1000 years, not the 7 years mentioned in Daniel 9.  If the covenants are different, then the people making the covenants should also be different. 

Regarding the cutting off in the midst of the last week, I have a very different take that also disagrees with anything that I have ever read.  I believe the two sentences in verse Daniel 9:26 represent two different thoughts.  In the first sentence, the Messiah (Jesus), will be cut off at the end of the 69'th week.  In the second sentence we learn of a people and prince who will destroy the city and sanctuary.  Whether we interpret city and sanctuary physically or spiritually, this would never be done by Jesus.  This means that the seventieth week must be talking about a different person.  This is why I believe the last week is all about what will happen with the Antichrist and has nothing to do with Jesus.

 

32 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t understand the basis or support for a “gap” in the 70 weeks. The Messiah arrived and was baptized AFTER the end of the 69th week. His Baptism began the last 7 years. 

I do not support the "gap" theory either.  As I said above, I believe the focus of the seventieth week is the antichrist rather than the Christ.  Because of this, I am interpreting this passage to be telling the Jews that there will be 69  week or 483 years until the messiah comes and is baptized.  An indeterminate amount of time after the Messiah comes, a different person will come, not as a messiah, but as a persecutor who will stick around for seven years.

39 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

I don’t understand how one could think that some anti-Christ figure would enter into a covenant with the Jews some 2,000 years in the future

I do not understand this either.  The Bible does not say that the Antichrist will enter into a covenant with the Jews.  It says that the Antichrist will enter into a strong covenant with many for seven years, but it does not say who the "many" are.  I personally believe that the last empire of iron and clay in Daniel, the one that John was told would come after the Roman Empire is the Ottoman Empire.  I believe this because it is the only empire that defeated the Roman Empire and also controlled the Holy Land.  This means that the eighth empire, the empire of the Antichrist will be a resurrected Islamic Caliphate.  It also means that it will start by one Islamic country making strong covenants or treaties with the other Muslim countries in order to bring about the caliphate.  This has nothing to do with the Jews or trying to bring peace to the Middle East.

 

47 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Finally, because the Messiah eliminated the Temple and the Sacrificial system as a result of His crucifixion, ANY new Temple and / or restart of the Sacrificial system has absolutely NO meaning to God- they were done away with and had no further value, consequently, there can NOT be any “abomination”or denigration to a future Temple— it would only have a value to the Jews at that future time. God would no longer consider a Temple as important or holy... it was a shadow or type. They have served their purpose. Actually, if the Jews were to build a 3rd Temple this would be telling Him they still do not accept Him as the Messiah... so why would we or why should we expect these verses in Daniel would be referring to a future event? Makes no sense to me!

This is close, but not quite true.  Ezekiel chapters 40 through 43 and also all the way through 48 tell us that there will definitely be a third Jewish temple that is very meaningful to God because He will visit it on a regular basis.  However, depending on the conversion of the royal cubit to inches and feet, the entire temple complex could be a little larger than 100 square miles.  This is more than twice the land area of Jerusalem proper and over 40% of the land area of the entire metropolitan area.  Given its size, we can rest assured that this temple will not be built until after Jesus returns.  Of course when Jesus does return, the Mount of Olives will split in two and a large valley will form between the two halves.  The earthquake will also split the city into three, destroying many of the buildings throughout the area.  There will also be millions of deaths, so the population of the city will be much lower.  All of this will mean that there is enough room to create this temple city.

I also agree with you that there will not be a third temple built before Jesus returns (or that the tribulation will start with 3.5 years of peace).  I interpret the temple spiritually.  Other than in the Gospel or the Acts of the Apostles, every New Testament reference to the temple is a spiritual reference where the temple means either an individual where our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, or the Church.  I believe that this passage is not saying that the Antichrist will stand in a physical Jewish temple, but rather that the Antichrist will be accepted and acknowledged by religious institutions and when he declares that he is God, those churches will use their spiritual authority over their flock to get them to worship the Antichrist as God.

The Lord has led me on an intense spiritual journey as I have studied the end time prophecies.  I am convinced that the reason there is so much confusion is that over the last 2000 years people have gotten careless in their terminology.  For example, I have lost count of the number of times I have heard that the first beast in Revelation is the Antichrist.  This cannot be true because in prophecy beasts are empires or groups of people.  However the Antichrist is a single person and therefore he cannot be the beast.  This is why I am very careful and I say that the beast is the empire of the Antichrist.  Unless you keep your definitions and symbols very clear you will get confused when you try to interpret end time prophecy.

 

[Charlie744]

John, very nice! I would like to respond to this post alittle later on ... but thanks again for your prompt and detailed information.. Charlie 

[CaptWalker]

Well more than enough has already been said on this so i'll just say my opinion is that Revelation only speaks of the 3 1/2 years,    (times time and half a time, 1260 days, 42 months). So if there is a first half of the last week yet to come, then it will be a time of peace we will likely not even recognize we are in. And if Anti-christ "confirms the covenant" then i believe it will basically be in siding with Israel and the Messianic covenant which confirms they are God's chosen people, and not some peace treaty as many think. But again this could be something we may not even realize has occurred and might not even be front page news, or maybe some under the table kind of agreement for all i know? For that matter one could even say Trump is a type of the Anti-christ because of his backing of Israel and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital and not Tel-Aviv. But i have never seriously even considered this as a possibility, but either way I sincerely do hope we are somehow already in the final week, unbeknownst to us.

Edited August 23, 2020 by CaptWalker

[John n Claudia]

34 minutes ago, CaptWalker said:

So if there is a first half of the last week yet to come, then it will be a time of peace we will likely not even recognize we are in. And if Anti-christ "confirms the covenant" then i believe it will basically be in siding with Israel and the Messianic covenant which confirms they are God's chosen people, and not some peace treaty as many think. But again this could be something we may not even realize has occurred and might not even be front page news, or maybe some under the table kind of agreement for all i know?

CaptWalker,

There is absolutely no question that the world will be deceived by the rise of the Antichrist.  This is the whole point of the end times and that the world has to completely fall away from God before Jesus can return.

I also agree that the world will not realize what is happening.  When the abomination occurs and the Antichrist declares that he is God, the Bible tells us that the world will accept this claim as truth.  I believe that this will happen because the antichrist is given power by Satan to work supernatural miracles and the second beast, the religious institutions of the world, will back up his claim to be God.

However, I do not agree that confirming the covenant has anything to do with the Jews.  I believe that seventh and last empire was the Ottoman Empire because it is the only empire that both conquered the Roman Empire and controlled the Holy Land.  Based on this, the Antichrist will come from a reborn Muslim Caliphate and the covenants that he confirms will be covenants with other Muslim countries in order to reestablish the caliphate.

When this occurs, the world will shake their head as more trouble in the Middle East starts to occur, but we will all view this as just another new normal after everything else that we have already seen in 2020.

53 minutes ago, CaptWalker said:

For that matter one could even say Trump is a type of the Anti-christ because of his backing of Israel and recognizing Jerusalem as the capital and not Tel-Aviv. But i have never seriously even considered this as a possibility, but either way I sincerely do hope we are somehow already in the final week, unbeknownst to us.

I am a bit confused by this.  The Antichrist will be the opposite of Christ.  Jesus was Jewish, supported the Jewish state and recognized Jerusalem as its capital.  This means that the Antichrist will not support the Jewish state or Jerusalem and instead will work to destroy it.

I personally believe that we are close to the final week, but are not there yet.  We will know that we have entered the final week when we see the rebirth of the empire system with the establishment of an Islamic Caliphate and the continued rise of the Chinese Empire.

 

[CaptWalker]

Well yes it is true that he will be an "adversary of the Messiah" which anti-christ means in the Greek translation, but also the root word meaning is "instead of" or in the place of Christ, almost like he will be playing that role in the beginning and will not show his true colors until the mid-point or even later. I personally believe the real Tribulation will only last about one year,(as Christ said they would be shortened) compared to the "days of Noah" in Matthew-24 and Luke-17, when Noah was in the ark for that time period. Also the 5 months in Revelation 9:5 and those first 150 days of the flood i believe are also related.

But my views on this come from a mid to post-Trib. rapture perspective, and whatever happens before then we will be here to witness. But still not necessarily seeing this person as the anti-christ, at least not enough to be convinced he is. I actually believe MANY Christians waiting for a rapture will be the very ones deceived by this world leader since he will not at all seem like the evil character he has been portrayed as by so many of these "prophecy" preachers/teachers who speak as if their own views are infallible and WILL come to pass. And some actually still believe in a 7-year hell on earth, which is something that i thought no one really believed anymore until i saw one such TV preacher mention it...WOW is all i can say!? 

Edited August 23, 2020 by CaptWalker

[Diaste]

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

but He did so halfway through the 70th Seven.

Is that so? Where does scripture say this?

16 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The halfway point through the 70th Seven IS "after the 7 Sevens and the 62 Sevens." And, you ADDED TO the Scriptures when you added "BEFORE the 70th."

True. But aren't you adding as well? After is after whether it's a minute after or 1000 years. Before the latter is also after the former. Hmm...

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 23, 2020 by Diaste

[Diaste]

On 8/21/2020 at 11:50 PM, Retrobyter said:

The verbs of verse 27 are singular, masculine, third-person and therefore must agree with the subject noun. And, the ONLY such third-person, singular, masculine, subject noun is found in verse 26, the word "Mashiyach" or "Messiah."

Again, in Hebrew, the subject CANNOT be the second noun of the noun construct state! And, the noun construct is "`am nagiyd!" Therefore, "nagiyd" cannot be the subject of the sentence.

Thus, the "push" is that "Mashiyach" MUST be the ONLY real subject of the verbs of verse 27, and the "pull" is that "nagiyd" CANNOT be the subject of the verbs! Between the conclusions of these positive and the negative arguments, the only mutual solution can be that the subject of the verbs of verse 27 is the "Mashiyach" of verse 26.

If that's true then the rest must be also.

"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation,j until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him" - Dan 9

So then Jesus:

1) put an end to sacrifice and offering (He did not, the Romans and their conscripts did in 70 AD)

2) must be responsible for "the abomination that causes desolation" (Not recorded in scripture either before or after the crucifixion)

3) Must have destruction poured out upon Him. (Resurrected and at the right hand of the Father forever)

An abject failure to try and shoehorn Jesus the Christ into 'he'.

 

[John n Claudia]

CaptWalker,

I agree that many people are under a strong delusion regarding what the last days will be like.  What we know for sure is that the 3.5 years of the Great Tribulation will be worse than anything the Jews have experience up to this point.  This includes everything from their slavery in Egypt to the Holocaust in WW2.

8 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

I personally believe the real Tribulation will only last about one year,(as Christ said they would be shortened) compared to the "days of Noah" in Matthew-24 and Luke-17, when Noah was in the ark for that time period. Also the 5 months in Revelation 9:5 and those first 150 days of the flood i believe are also related.

With regard to the length of time of the Great Tribulation, I look first at what Jesus said in Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20.  The Jews are to flee at the time of the Abomination because that is when the Great Tribulation will start, 3.5 years before Jesus returns.  Zechariah 14:2 gives more insight into what happens there and how half of the Jews captured alive will go into exile in concentration camps and the other half will be imprisoned in Jerusalem.  Then, Zechariah 14:5 tells us that it is only when Jesus returns to the Mount of Olives and the mountain is split into two that the Jews in Jerusalem will be able to escape between the two halves of the mountain.  This indicates to me that the Great Tribulation will last the entire 3.5 years and also indicates that there will be some trouble before because the Jews have to be defeated in some war before the Antichrist can take over Jerusalem.  Based on Daniel 11:29 - 31, I personally believe that the war will be very short.  There the Antichrist tries to fight a war with the king of the south and after he is turned back, he attacks Israel almost as an afterthought.

 

8 hours ago, CaptWalker said:

But my views on this come from a mid to post-Trib. rapture perspective, and whatever happens before then we will be here to witness. But still not necessarily seeing this person as the anti-christ, at least not enough to be convinced he is. I actually believe MANY Christians waiting for a rapture will be the very ones deceived by this world leader since he will not at all seem like the evil character he has been portrayed as by so many of these "prophecy" preachers/teachers who speak as if their own views are infallible and WILL come to pass. And some actually still believe in a 7-year hell on earth, which is something that i thought no one really believed anymore until i saw one such TV preacher mention it...WOW is all i can say!? 

I am coming from a post-tribulation perspective with the Wrath of God being executed after the full seven year period of the Antichrist.  I am very much in agreement that many Christians waiting for the rapture are deceived and they will fall for the deception and worship the Antichrist as God.  As far as this period being "hell on Earth" is concerned, I personally think that we are already seeing this and have just become so accustomed to things that we accept them as being "normal".  Before Jesus returns we will see even more forest fires than what we have seen over the last year in Australia, Siberia and now California.  By the end of the year we will be seeing over 2 million people dying each week from starvation in Africa (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/22/coronavirus-biblical-famines-could-double-global-hunger-un-warns.html).  China is hiding their food shortages as well, but every now and then a news story escapes showing just how desperate they are for food (https://www.forbes.com/sites/salgilbertie/2020/07/28/china-food-crisis-rising-domestic-prices-and-large-import-purchases-send-a-signal/#4b9c656a1bcb).

We are already seeing the waters turning to "blood" as a result of algal blooms that people think are pretty because the algae are phosphorescent.  Life will continue to descend as we get closer and closer to the return of Jesus.  It is never a good idea to think things will not get worse than they are now.  I just pray that He gives me the strength to remain faithful and that I am able to endure until the end.