Revelation 6:2 White horse

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Moby said:

Sorry bro but the word "fulness" does not mean the physical Jews will make up a greater body of the ONE olive tree than the Gentiles:

fulness ~ https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G4138&t=KJV

Sorry bro but I think I understand the meaning of "how much more their fullness"

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The context within which Paul was using the word "fulness" proves he is desiring to save "some of them":

Romans 11:11-14  I say then, Did they stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy.  (12)  Now if their fall is the riches of the world, and their loss the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?  (13)  But I speak to you that are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I glorify my ministry;  (14)  if by any means I may provoke to jealousy them that are my flesh, and may save some of them.

Paul is saying that his ministry is to the Gentiles. Simple. He desires that through his ministry some of his flesh may be saved. Simple. No great mystery here.

 

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There are very very few pure Jews left in the world today so if every one of them became a believer it would only be a small percentage of the number of believing Gentiles that exist world wide>

Your Church is providing you with bad information. Anyone born of a Jewish mother is considered a Jew. There are vast numbers of Jews. They are as of the sand of the seas, just as the word says.

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But the scriptures clearly prove there will only be a remnant of all the Jews alive today who will be saved when the Lord finishes His Word on the earth:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Brother, is there anything that you understand besides the Olive tree? We already know that during the 70th week of Daniel, the 1st 6 seals, there will be 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes that guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. This will be a massive harvest and will be part of the gathering which is the great multitude of Rev 7. What you are doing is the usual out of context CHERRY PICKING. Let's check Isaiah 10

Isaiah 10

²⁰ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

²¹ The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

²² For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

²³ For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

²⁴ Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

²⁵ For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

So when we keep things in context we can see that the people of Israel, the twelve tribes that have been scattered across the earth, are as the sand of the sea, BUT ONLY A REMNANT RETURNS TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

That is why only a remnant is saved. Isaiah is talking about those in the land of Israel when the Assyrian comes. It is those that flee to a place of protection (1/3) that will go through the wrath of God. The 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured at the 6th seal, where you think the Church is raptured. But the Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened as we see in Rev 5.

So the remnant being discussed is the small amount of Jews, in comparison to their total number, that return to the land of Israel in the last days.

 

Also you still have not addressed the problem you have where you claim that there is one resurrection and at the time the tares are gathered first and yet Rev 14 shows the righteous are gathered 1st.

Edited October 11, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

On 10/11/2020 at 11:15 AM, The Light said:

Sorry bro but I think I understand the meaning of "how much more their fullness"

Paul is saying that his ministry is to the Gentiles. Simple. He desires that through his ministry some of his flesh may be saved. Simple. No great mystery here.

 

Your Church is providing you with bad information. Anyone born of a Jewish mother is considered a Jew. There are vast numbers of Jews. They are as of the sand of the seas, just as the word says.

Brother, is there anything that you understand besides the Olive tree? We already know that during the 70th week of Daniel, the 1st 6 seals, there will be 144,000 first fruits from the 12 tribes that guarantees a harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth. This will be a massive harvest and will be part of the gathering which is the great multitude of Rev 7. What you are doing is the usual out of context CHERRY PICKING. Let's check Isaiah 10

Isaiah 10

²⁰ And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.

²¹ The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God.

²² For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness.

²³ For the Lord God of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.

²⁴ Therefore thus saith the Lord God of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

²⁵ For yet a very little while, and the indignation shall cease, and mine anger in their destruction.

So when we keep things in context we can see that the people of Israel, the twelve tribes that have been scattered across the earth, are as the sand of the sea, BUT ONLY A REMNANT RETURNS TO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.

That is why only a remnant is saved. Isaiah is talking about those in the land of Israel when the Assyrian comes. It is those that flee to a place of protection (1/3) that will go through the wrath of God. The 12 tribes across the earth will be raptured at the 6th seal, where you think the Church is raptured. But the Church is already in heaven before the seals are opened as we see in Rev 5.

So the remnant being discussed is the small amount of Jews, in comparison to their total number, that return to the land of Israel in the last days.

 

Also you still have not addressed the problem you have where you claim that there is one resurrection and at the time the tares are gathered first and yet Rev 14 shows the righteous are gathered 1st.

One of the greatest hurdles to overcome in Christianity is the urge to focus on the physical rather than the spiritual:

2 Corinthians 3:4-6  And such confidence have we through Christ to God-ward:  (5)  not that we are sufficient of ourselves, to account anything as from ourselves; but our sufficiency is from God;  (6)  who also made us sufficient as ministers of a new covenant; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

In the OT covenant there was a promised land where a physical temple was built but all of that is now spiritual in the NT covenant because Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophets and law and NEVER going back:

Matthew 5:17  Think not that I came to destroy the law or the prophets: I came not to destroy, but to fulfil.

Acts 7:48  Howbeit the Most High dwelleth not in houses made with hands; as saith the prophet,

Acts 17:24  The God that made the world and all things therein, he, being Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

Yes some of the physical Jews have returned to their physical land over there in the Middle East and have every intention of building a physical temple again but that will never change the fact that ONLY those physical Jews who walk by faith in Jesus will become the ONLY temple that matters since 30 AD no matter what country they live and die in:

1 Corinthians 3:16-17  Know ye not that ye are a temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?  (17)  If any man destroyeth the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, and such are ye.

Every single OT promise to the physical Jew is now a spiritual promise to a spiritual Jew who are both believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Romans 2:28-29  For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:  (29)  but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Romans 9:25-28  As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.  (26)  And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God.  (27)  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Romans 11:24-26  For if thou wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?  (25)  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Ephesians 2:11-22  Wherefore remember, that once ye, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called Circumcision, in the flesh, made by hands;  (12)  that ye were at that time separate from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of the promise, having no hope and without God in the world.  (13)  But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.  (14)  For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,  (15)  having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace;  (16)  and might reconcile them both in one body unto God through the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:  (17)  and he came and preached peace to you that were far off, and peace to them that were nigh:  (18)  for through him we both have our access in one Spirit unto the Father.  (19)  So then ye are no more strangers and sojourners, but ye are fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God,  (20)  being built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the chief corner stone;  (21)  in whom each several building, fitly framed together, groweth into a holy temple in the Lord;  (22)  in whom ye also are builded together for a habitation of God in the Spirit.

No matter which "olivet" discourse we read the same destruction of the OT temple must occur:

Matthew 24:1-2   And Jesus went out from the temple, and was going on his way; and his disciples came to him to show him the buildings of the temple.  (2)  But he answered and said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Mark 13:1-2  And as he went forth out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Teacher, behold, what manner of stones and what manner of buildings!  (2)  And Jesus said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left here one stone upon another, which shall not be thrown down.

Luke 21:5-6  And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and offerings, he said,  (6)  As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in which there shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

In all three great commissions of Jesus to His Jewish disciples was to go into ALL the nations starting in Jerusalem and work out unto all the world to create a harvest to the uttermost parts of the earth of believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Matthew 28:18-20  And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.  (19)  Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:  (20)  teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I commanded you: and lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world.

Mark 16:15-18  And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.  (16)  He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.  (17)  And these signs shall accompany them that believe: in my name shall they cast out demons; they shall speak with new tongues;  (18)  they shall take up serpents, and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall in no wise hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Luke 24:44-47  And he said unto them, These are my words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must needs be fulfilled, which are written in the law of Moses, and the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me.  (45)  Then opened he their mind, that they might understand the scriptures;  (46)  and he said unto them, Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer, and rise again from the dead the third day;  (47)  and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name unto all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem.

NO where in the entire NT do we see Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, or John promote or even hint at the need for the Jews to return to a physical piece of real estate in the middle east and build another temple for all the  prophesies in the entire bible to occur spiritually in the only spiritual temple that matters to our Father and His Son Jesus in His spiritual city of Jerusalem that will be coming down out of heaven:

Revelation 3:12  He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name.

As far as your confusion as to these two passages where the tares are gathered first in bundles to be burned; there is no confusion for those with eyes to see:

Matthew 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were those who were a part of the church but did not make their calling and election sure and had no fruit through the tribulation so therefore became a part of the "vintage of the earth" that will face the wrath of fire on the earth during the last year called the year of our Father's vengeance which is His wrath:

Revelation 14:14-20  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.  (17)  And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  (18)  And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  (19)  And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.  (20)  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The true church with 30fold, 60fold, or 100fold fruit will be gathered as resurrected/raptured bodies our Father's barn 45 days into that last year while the tares within the the clusters of the vine of the earth who are fully ripe with sin will be thrown into the great wine press, of the wrath of God that commences with the first trumpet as is clearly proven here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

 

[The Light]

14 hours ago, Moby said:

One of the greatest hurdles to overcome in Christianity is the urge to focus on the physical rather than the spiritual:

We are talking about the physical remnant. You want to claim that only a small number of Jews, a remnant will be saved and that is just not the truth. The word says that the Jews across the earth will be like the sand of the sea and that only a remnant return to Israel. That is why only a remnant is saved when the deliverer comes. These are the Jews of the physical nation of Israel, that go through the wrath of God and are saved when the Lord returns at the end of wrath.

However, we know that many, many, many of the twelve tribes across the earth will have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The fullness of the Gentiles will come in before the 70th week of Daniel. Then God will turn turn his attention to the 12 tribes and there will be a rapture at the 6th seal. We can easily prove that by Rev 7 and Rev 14.

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In the OT covenant there was a promised land where a physical temple was built but all of that is now spiritual in the NT covenant because Jesus fulfilled all the OT prophets and law and NEVER going back:

You have a constant propensity to speak some truth and think that that truth is providing support for your argument. What you are saying has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. You claim that only a small number of Jews will be saved, a remnant, when the Word says that only a remnant, of the Jews that are as the sand of the sea will return back to their land. There is going to be an absolutely massive harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth that will occur at the 6th seal.

 

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Yes some of the physical Jews have returned to their physical land over there in the Middle East and have every intention of building a physical temple again but that will never change the fact that ONLY those physical Jews who walk by faith in Jesus will become the ONLY temple that matters since 30 AD no matter what country they live and die in:

Again you speak some truth that has nothing to do with supporting your  argument that only a small remnant of Jews will be saved. The Word says that only a remnant of Jews will return back to the land of Israel. However, it also says that the Jews are as the sand of the sea and many of their eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And how much more the fullness of the Jews will be.

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Every single OT promise to the physical Jew is now a spiritual promise to a spiritual Jew who are both believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Again you retreat to the olive tree and never realize that you need to understand the timing of Gods plan. Until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in most of the Jews will remain in blindness. But once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, what a harvest there will be of the Chosen People of God. God is going to keep His promise. He always keeps His Word.

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No matter which "olivet" discourse we read the same destruction of the OT temple must occur:

So do you believe that one stone remains up another and that those prophecies of Matthew, Mark and Luke are unfulfilled?

 

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In all three great commissions of Jesus to His Jewish disciples was to go into ALL the nations starting in Jerusalem and work out unto all the world to create a harvest to the uttermost parts of the earth of believing Jews and believing Gentiles as ONE olive tree, ONE commonwealth of Israel, ONE habitation of God, ONE temple, and ONE body of Christ:

Right and most of the Jews will not be able to see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. God provides the timing. The fig tree has two harvests.

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NO where in the entire NT do we see Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, or John promote or even hint at the need for the Jews to return to a physical piece of real estate in the middle east and build another temple for all the  prophesies in the entire bible to occur spiritually in the only spiritual temple that matters to our Father and His Son Jesus in His spiritual city of Jerusalem that will be coming down out of heaven:

Please. Do we see in the entire NT that the Jews are going to loose their country? How about the Old Testament? What do the prophets say? Again a little piece of truth that has nothing to do with the argument.

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As far as your confusion as to these two passages where the tares are gathered first in bundles to be burned; there is no confusion for those with eyes to see:

Matthew 13:30  Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.

The tares were those who were a part of the church but did not make their calling and election sure and had no fruit through the tribulation so therefore became a part of the "vintage of the earth" that will face the wrath of fire on the earth during the last year called the year of our Father's vengeance which is His wrath:

Revelation 14:14-20  And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.  (15)  And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.  (16)  And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.  (17)  And another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.  (18)  And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.  (19)  And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.  (20)  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

The true church with 30fold, 60fold, or 100fold fruit will be gathered as resurrected/raptured bodies our Father's barn 45 days into that last year while the tares within the the clusters of the vine of the earth who are fully ripe with sin will be thrown into the great wine press, of the wrath of God that commences with the first trumpet as is clearly proven here:

https://sumofthyword.com/2016/10/04/the-rapture-of-the-church-is-after-the-tribulation/

 

Oh, I'm not the one in confusion, bub. You are the one claiming that there is one resurrection and that the unrighteous are gathered first. I'm just showing you that in Rev 14 we see that the righteous are gathered first.

Additionally, the rapture of the Church occurs  before the 70th week of Daniel. What you see as the rapture of the Church is really the gathering from heaven and earth, where the Church is gathered from heaven and the twelve tribes are gathered from the earth. This occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God begins.

Edited October 14, 2020 by The Light

[Moby]

On 10/13/2020 at 10:12 PM, The Light said:

We are talking about the physical remnant. You want to claim that only a small number of Jews, a remnant will be saved and that is just not the truth. The word says that the Jews across the earth will be like the sand of the sea and that only a remnant return to Israel. That is why only a remnant is saved when the deliverer comes. These are the Jews of the physical nation of Israel, that go through the wrath of God and are saved when the Lord returns at the end of wrath.

However, we know that many, many, many of the twelve tribes across the earth will have their blindness removed when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. The fullness of the Gentiles will come in before the 70th week of Daniel. Then God will turn turn his attention to the 12 tribes and there will be a rapture at the 6th seal. We can easily prove that by Rev 7 and Rev 14.

You have a constant propensity to speak some truth and think that that truth is providing support for your argument. What you are saying has absolutely nothing to do with the argument at hand. You claim that only a small number of Jews will be saved, a remnant, when the Word says that only a remnant, of the Jews that are as the sand of the sea will return back to their land. There is going to be an absolutely massive harvest of the 12 tribes across the earth that will occur at the 6th seal.

 

Again you speak some truth that has nothing to do with supporting your  argument that only a small remnant of Jews will be saved. The Word says that only a remnant of Jews will return back to the land of Israel. However, it also says that the Jews are as the sand of the sea and many of their eyes will be opened when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. And how much more the fullness of the Jews will be.

Again you retreat to the olive tree and never realize that you need to understand the timing of Gods plan. Until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in most of the Jews will remain in blindness. But once the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, what a harvest there will be of the Chosen People of God. God is going to keep His promise. He always keeps His Word.

So do you believe that one stone remains up another and that those prophecies of Matthew, Mark and Luke are unfulfilled?

 

Right and most of the Jews will not be able to see until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in. God provides the timing. The fig tree has two harvests.

Please. Do we see in the entire NT that the Jews are going to loose their country? How about the Old Testament? What do the prophets say? Again a little piece of truth that has nothing to do with the argument.

Oh, I'm not the one in confusion, bub. You are the one claiming that there is one resurrection and that the unrighteous are gathered first. I'm just showing you that in Rev 14 we see that the righteous are gathered first.

Additionally, the rapture of the Church occurs  before the 70th week of Daniel. What you see as the rapture of the Church is really the gathering from heaven and earth, where the Church is gathered from heaven and the twelve tribes are gathered from the earth. This occurs at the 6th seal before the wrath of God begins.

I will repeat what I shared in another reply to you here since it is relevant to this discussion as well:

I am going to accept Paul's interpretation of Isaiah 10:22-23 as he has a much better understanding than most Christians today:

Isaiah 10:22-23  For though thy people, Israel, be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them shall return: a destruction is determined, overflowing with righteousness.  (23)  For a full end, and that determined, will the Lord, Jehovah of hosts, make in the midst of all the earth.

Paul clearly understood that when the Holy Spirit had Isaiah use the Hebrew word "shuwb" that meant there was going to be a remnant of physical Jews who would "return" to the Lord and be saved as he clearly proved in the NT when he quoted Isaiah:

Romans 9:27-28  And Isaiah crieth concerning Israel, If the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that shall be saved:  (28)  for the Lord will execute his word upon the earth, finishing it and cutting it short.

Paul clearly proved that our Father chose us before the foundation of the world when writing to the predominantly Gentile church in Ephesus:

Ephesians 1:3-13  Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ:  (4)  even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love:  (5)  having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,  (6)  to the praise of the glory of his grace, which he freely bestowed on us in the Beloved: (7) in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,  (8)  which he made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,  (9)  making known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him  (10)  unto a dispensation of the fulness of the times, to sum up all things in Christ, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth; in him, I say,  (11)  in whom also we were made a heritage, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his will;  (12)  to the end that we should be unto the praise of his glory, we who had before hoped in Christ:  (13)  in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,--in whom, having also believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Paul used the word "us" and "we" all through his writings because he clearly knew the ONE olive tree would be made up of a remnant of believing Gentiles along with a remnant of believing Jews as the mystery of God's will being completed by the end as all Israel:

Romans 11:25-26  For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in;  (26)  and so all Israel shall be saved: even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

When you you brethren going to grasp the FACT that what was physical ground in the OT is now spiritually to be understood as our spiritual land that must produce the fruit in the new covenant made with the believing Jews and believing Gentiles as I proved in another post to WilliamL in the thread I started called "Are you living in the Spirit or the letter?":

Jesus taught the Jews that they and by extension us as believers are the land that must produce the fruit:

Matthew 13:23  And he that was sown upon the good ground, this is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; who verily beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Paul also called us as believers the land:

Hebrews 6:4-9  For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit,  (5)  and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come,  (6)  and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.  (7)  For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God:  (8)  but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned.  (9)  But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak:

https://sumofthyword.com/2017/03/19/parable-of-the-sower/

[iamlamad]

On 10/7/2020 at 9:20 PM, Traveler said:

It was Jesus after the ascension that took the scroll and opened the seals so as to see what was in the future.

It takes wisdom to know which seals are history to us today and which are future.

[iamlamad]

On 10/8/2020 at 7:19 PM, Dennis1209 said:

Hello Charlie,

What a coincidence running across this thread at this time? I recently got a new software program that I'm transferring all my scattered study notes to; one that I will not lose my research notes when my computer crashes or get a new one. It so happens that just yesterday, I started transferring my notes starting with Revelation, as it probably contains the most notes. Got through chapter 6: so far.

Yes, you got some excellent advice to start and understand the book of Daniel first. Just noticed this is an old post from August, so once again I'm late for the party... I'll copy and paste my notes I just transferred today pertaining to Rev. 6:2. Please keep in mind, when I make notes; it's for me and to refresh my memory of the previous studies. We all have our hermeneutical views, and I don't claim my view is the correct one; it's just how I interpret it logically reading and studying. My notes are as follows:

This is the introduction to the Antichrist stage left. The symbolic color ‘white’ usually represents peace or surrender; in this instance it represents peace. Notice the Antichrist only has a bow [to launch] and no quiver or arrows. A crown was given him [power and royalty]; it appears all his victories so far have been bloodless and authority was given to him, presenting himself as a man of peace [probably won the Nobel Peace Prize]? The picture I get is; he is politically and militarily brilliant; strategical, eloquent of speech, skilful diplomacy and a great orator; deceiving such as the world has never seen; he will dazzle the world and be irresistible. Hitler will be small potatoes compared to him. It will elevate him to the leader of the soon coming One World Government [Satan’s man]. Like Antiochus Epiphanes his prototype, he will come in peaceably and with flatteries [insincere praise]. At this point, the world has been prepared and ready to receive him, in his name. This person is described by 33 different names in the Bible [son of perdition, man of sin, etc.]. Antichrist is only mentioned in the Bible in four places. Anti means against or in place of; the latter being my preference. He will come out of obscurity out of nowhere. He can’t be identified ahead of time; until he confirms a seven year covenant with Israel and the many. He will be the satanic man that the world has been screaming for to solve the globes problems. The Bible is clear we can't identify whom the Antichrist is ahead of his unveiling. But, the Bible doesn't say nor imply that we can't figure out who the False Prophet is?

Daniel 11:21 (KJV) And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries. The Antichrist appears to come from the tribe of Dan [Gen 49:17, Jer 8:16]. He does not become the Beast until the abomination which makes desolation at exactly mid-tribulation; when Satan is cast out of Heaven for good. This seven year covenant with Israel will probably include the permission to build the 3rd Temple.

This is the introduction to the Antichrist stage left. The symbolic color ‘white’ usually represents peace or surrender; in this instance it represents peace. Notice the Antichrist only has a bow [to launch] and no quiver or arrows. I see you believe the first horse is to represent the Antichrist.  I think the only way someone can come to that conclusion is by pulling that first seal out of its early church context. In chapter 5, John is at the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy spirit down. That would be around 32 AD. 

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. I would rather believe it represents righteousness. The ONLY righteous entity on earth in 32 AD was the infant church. Jesus sent them out with the gospel. They had to conquer, because Satan is the god of this world. They had to conquer demonic principalities and powers over every new area. 

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. God limited them to only 1/4 of the earth. (the Antichrist will NOT be limited to 1/4 the earth.)

[Dennis1209]

52 minutes ago, iamlamad said:

This is the introduction to the Antichrist stage left. The symbolic color ‘white’ usually represents peace or surrender; in this instance it represents peace. Notice the Antichrist only has a bow [to launch] and no quiver or arrows. I see you believe the first horse is to represent the Antichrist.  I think the only way someone can come to that conclusion is by pulling that first seal out of its early church context. In chapter 5, John is at the time Jesus ascended and sent the Holy spirit down. That would be around 32 AD. 

John used the color white 17 times in Revelation. I would rather believe it represents righteousness. The ONLY righteous entity on earth in 32 AD was the infant church. Jesus sent them out with the gospel. They had to conquer, because Satan is the god of this world. They had to conquer demonic principalities and powers over every new area. 

Seals 2-4 are to represent the devil's attempts to stop the gospel. God limited them to only 1/4 of the earth. (the Antichrist will NOT be limited to 1/4 the earth.)

Well I won't argue it as we all have our own hermeneutic views. While we're on the topic of interpretation, let me ask your view on something? 

It seems to me, whenever the 'sea' and the nation of Israel is mentioned in the same context; the 'sea' almost always refers to the Mediterranean Sea. With that idea in mind and speaking of numbers and percentage for instance. As an example: One-third of all the trees and all green grass being burnt up; do you think that's globally, or isolated to the Mediterranean Sea area?

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Well I won't argue it as we all have our own hermeneutic views. While we're on the topic of interpretation, let me ask your view on something? 

It seems to me, whenever the 'sea' and the nation of Israel is mentioned in the same context; the 'sea' almost always refers to the Mediterranean Sea. With that idea in mind and speaking of numbers and percentage for instance. As an example: One-third of all the trees and all green grass being burnt up; do you think that's globally, or isolated to the Mediterranean Sea area?

I wish I knew the answer to that.

I am not sure I understand your answer: perhaps you don't understand what God was doing, showing John a vision of the throne room with Jesus absent (NOT seen at the right hand of the Father), the Holy Spirit there when we would expect Him to already be sent down (It's 95 AD or so), then a search for one worthy to take the book that ended in failure. One could ask, where was Jesus then? (In fact, one SHOULD ask!)

Then it seems TIME PASSED, and things changed: Jesus WAS found worthy (I think because He had just risen from the dead) and then John saw Him ascend and send the Holy Spirit down. To me these entire two chapters are sort of screaming out TIMING.

Edited October 15, 2020 by iamlamad

[DeighAnn]

1   And I saw an angel descending out of heaven holding the key of the Abyss and a chain great in the hand of him
2  And he seized the dragon, the serpent ancient who is devil and Satan and bound him for a thousand years
 3  And he cast him into the Abyss and shut and sealed over him so that not he should deceive any longer the nations until were completed the thousand years.  After these things it is necessary for to be released him for a little time
4  And I saw thrones and they sat upon them and judgment was given to them and the souls of those having been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God and THOSE WHO NOT DID WORSHIP THE BEAST NOR THE IMAGE OF HIM AND NOT DID TAKE THE MARK UPON THE FOREHEAD AND UPON THE HAND.  AND THEY LIVED AND REIGNED WITH CHRIST A THOUSAND YEARS. 
5  The rest of the dead not again lived until shall have been completed the thousand years.  THIS {IS} THE FIRST RESURRECTION
6  Blessed and holy the {one} having a part in the resurrection first!  Over these the second death not has power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him a thousand years
7  And when shall have been completed the thousand years will be released Satan out of the prison of him



CLEARLY, THE FIRST RESURRECTION COMES AFTER THE TRIBULATION.  

NO matter what any man says, or shows, or thinks, or figures out, or gives harvest times, or verses he thinks tells of any other. 




 

Revelation 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

 

 

 

 

With the Lamb standing on the mount, CLEARLY, Christ has returned and Satan has been bound for the Lords Day.How do we ESCAPE wrath?  As Gods Wrath fall UPON THEM, NOT US,   ALL that is needed to escape ALL THOSE THINGS is going from being one of "them" to one of "US"/a believer/one of faith/a Christian.  
That's it, nothing more.  No special treatment for those who were once gentiles who have been grafted in.  Once grafted in, they become a part of the "one".  No different.  No different treatment.  No special treatment.  No way to even know themselves if they are "of one of the tribes" or not.  Going to have to die and be judged just like the rest, well except on the VERY LAST DAY when Christ returns and ALL are changed BECAUSE flesh and blood can not be in the kingdom and the kingdom is going to be right here on earth.

 

Now SOME may try to tell you this ONE is "a good" one
BUT
WHEN you read them all together, DOES IT SEEM TO BE ABOUT "GOOD THINGS/events" or judgments?? Does Christ need to be "given" a crown?  
2  And I looked and behold a horse white and the {one} sitting on it having a bow an was given to him a crown and he went forth overcoming and that he might conquer (3528)
 

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Paul, an apostle to whom?  
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:


 

[R. Hartono]

On 10/18/2020 at 9:57 PM, DeighAnn said:

CLEARLY, THE FIRST RESURRECTION COMES AFTER THE TRIBULATION.  

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/233771-the-word-first-resurrection-in-rev-20-which-mislead-many/