Where will Christ reign from in the New Heavens and New Earth?

[ENOCH2010]

2 hours ago, Uriah said:

Wow! OK, how will that work? Crush His own people...land?

I have read that if it were as seen below (an attempt at scale) one would need to excavate to the depth of 70 miles at its center so the entire base would be at ground level.

My belief is that it will remain above the Earth.

I understand that, but I'm still going with what the Bible plainly says. All I can say is there will be some major geographical changes with the new Earth.

[Marilyn C]

16 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hi Marilyn,

This could be contradictory. Throne vs seat of power? Same thing, no?

Rev. 21:2 & 3- And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

Also, continuing the description of NJ in the next chapter...

Rev. 22:3- And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

No matter where God's throne is, nothing/nobody is above Him.

Hi Uriah,

I agree -throne = power. However all the `thrones` throughout God`s great kingdom have a source of authority and power and that is the Lord`s own throne in the third heaven, over all. (Rev. 3: 21)

Also we need to remember that the New Jerusalem came down FROM GOD. Thus when we read of God`s throne in the NJ it is by His Holy Spirit. God dwells in unapproachable light. He does not move His eternal throne. (1 Tim. 1: 17)

And there are realms of authority and power for God made them as such. He is NOT a God of disorder. (Col. 1: 16) 

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

The Bible clearly says the New Jerusalem comes down from the heavens to the new Earth where the Lord will dwell with man. Rev: 21 

Hi Enoch,

You missed out this part `FROM GOD.` God dwells in unapproachable light and does NOT move His eternal throne. He dwells with those in the NJ and New Earth by His Spirit.  

[Marilyn C]

1 hour ago, ENOCH2010 said:

I understand that, but I'm still going with what the Bible plainly says. All I can say is there will be some major geographical changes with the new Earth.

And where does it say that the NJ will be ON the earth?

 And how will those all over the earth walk in its light if they are round the other side of the planet?

[ENOCH2010]

8 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

And where does it say that the NJ will be ON the earth?

 And how will those all over the earth walk in its light if they are round the other side of the planet?

Start reading at Rev:19 and continue through 20,21,and 22. That should give you a clear picture of what's ahead of us, if you will let the Word teach you and not listen to any man made doctrine.

[ENOCH2010]

To question # 2 - Who knows what the new Earth will be like? People may just live on one side, who knows? 

[Retrobyter]

9 hours ago, Uriah said:

Wow! OK, how will that work? Crush His own people...land?

I have read that if it were as seen below (an attempt at scale) one would need to excavate to the depth of 70 miles at its center so the entire base would be at ground level.

My belief is that it will remain above the Earth.

Shalom, Uriah.

Here's how it's done: First, the Scriptures NEVER says that the New Jerusalem is a cube! All it gives us is that its length, width, and height are all the same, 12,000 "furlongs" which is the Greek word "stadioon," the plural, masculine, genitive form of "stadios," and that it covers a square area; that is, it has a square footprint with four right angles.

Revelation 21:16 (KJV)

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

We KNOW the length of a "stadion" because it is the same as the Roman "stadium" or "stad." Throughout Europe one can still find Roman mile markers that tell us how long a "stad" is. It's 607.14222... feet in length. Multiplying that by 12,000 and dividing by 5280 feet per mile, we find that the sides and the height of this city will be 1,379.868686... miles long or 1,379 miles, 4,586 feet, 8 inches long.

The problem with that distance on the surface of the earth is that it covers almost 20 degrees (19.95 degrees) of the earth's circumference! (The earth's circumference is 24,901 miles at the equator.) That means that "down" at the middle gate of one side of the city will be 20 degrees different than "down" at the middle gate of the opposite side of the city! (And, both sides are about 10 degrees different than "down" in the middle of the city.) See, what YOU'VE shown above is that the city, being a perfect cube, would curve away from the ground on either side of the city, if the center of the city were able to rest upon the surface of the earth. Furthermore, if you do the math, it would be over 60 miles high (60.82275 mi) to the edge of the city from the surface of the ground at that point!

A second problem with a cube is that the TOP of the city would be SHORTER than the bottom of the city, when measured from the ground! Using your map above, if the bottom was over the Black Sea, the top would be somewhere over the middle of Turkey! And, that would be true on ALL FOUR SIDES of the cube!

So, let's say that we can adjust it to look like a cube from the ground. Now, the problem would be just the opposite! If the bottom were adjusted to lie flat on the ground, that is to have a curved bottom of the cube that fit upon the globe, if all four sides were perpendicular to the surface of the earth, the top would LITERALLY be longer than the bottom of the "cube!" And, from a distance, say 5,000 miles away, it would look ridiculous! And, think about the soundness of the structure! It wouldn't be able to support itself!

But, there IS a solution that fits the facts (since part of the facts suggest it SHALL sit upon the surface of the earth), the pyramid. At this point, some radical Christians will jump up and down and say, "Heresy! It's a CUBE!" Others will say, "Oh! The pyramid is associated with the Egyptian gods and with Satan!" However, that's just fear mongering. The pyramid is just a mathematical structure. Actually, a pyramid, as defined in mathematics is a base of ANY regular polygon in which lines are connected from the vertices of the polygon to a point above the polygon, usually drawn perpendicularly from the center of the polygon.

In our particular case, however, we are TOLD that the base of this pyramid covers a square area with four right angles And, since the height of this pyramid would have to be the same distance as the length and the width, then we have a regular, square-based, right pyramid. Once again, however, we would have to curve the base of this pyramid so it fits on the curvature of the earth. But NOW, what happens when we curve the base? At the surface of the earth, the walls of the pyramid would angle upward to the pinnacle at the SAME ANGLE as the pinnacle angle, at approximately 53 degrees! So, from ground level, it would appear to be an equilateral triangle (of sorts, since 53 degrees is more acute than 60 degrees) but from a distance, say 5,000 miles away, the height could be visually measured to be the same distance as the width or the length!

The cube doesn't fit either way, but the pyramid shape fits BOTH WAYS!

Now, apparently you don't think the city will land upon the New Earth, but there are contextual clues that show that it MUST land!

First, the four walls are aligned with north. How do we know this? The city will have 12 gates and we are told,

Revelation 21:12-13 (KJV)

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 

This would be hard to do if the city was a satellite. Not impossible, I suppose, but highly unlikely because satellites tend to rotate as they revolve around the earth. See, an orbit is not a stationary condition. An orbit is the process of falling to the earth indefinitely. A satellite falls to the earth, but the satellite is moving so quickly that, by the time it would have reached the earth, the earth has already curved away. It keeps falling to the ground, but it keeps missing it! Furthermore, orbits tend to decay with time! Again, not a problem for God, but why should He have to deal with it at all?

Second, the city has FOUNDATIONS. This is the Greek word "themelioi," the plural of "themelios."

2310 themelios (them-el'-ee-os). From a derivative of tithemi; something put down, i.e. A substruction (of a building, etc.), (literally or figuratively) -- foundation.

I'm of the opinion that the eleven are LEVELS to this three dimensional city, but one would think that at least the first foundation would be sunk into the earth's bedrock, as most large-building foundations are. I should like to direct your attention to my avatar above. This shows the foundations within the New Jerusalem by means of a cut-away view.

Some say that "jasper" is actually "diamond," as though that makes it more valuable. But, I remember that the tabernacle was covered with badger skin (or porpoise skin) and was rather unremarkable from the outside.

The jasper is the red chalcedony that is found as flecks in the dark green chalcedony of the "blood stone." Thus, I believe that the walls being of jasper and the first foundation of jasper COMPLETELY encased the city proper in this blood-red stone! In other words, one cannot enter the city without going "through the blood!" And, I think this makes the blood-red chalcedony FAR more valuable than diamonds!

Although just an argument from silence, there's no mention of a roof to this city nor do the Scriptures say it was open to space. (And, it WOULD be open to SPACE if there was no roof, the city being 1,379.8686... miles high!) However, if one allows all four walls to come together at an angle from the base, it would come to a single point - the pinnacle or "capstone!" Interestingly, Yeshua` is called "the head stone of the corner," which is a PERFECT description of a capstone! And, as I mention in my signature lines below, the children of Israel were indeed familiar with pyramids and capstones, having lived in Egypt for 430 years!

As far as landing the city on anyone, no God wouldn't need to do this since the city doesn't come down until AFTER the Great White Throne Judgment. On the other hand, there are a few verses in Scripture that confuse the city with the mountain, such as ...

Isaiah 2:2 (KJV)

2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

and

Psalm 48:1-2 (KJV)

1 {A Song and Psalm for the sons of Korah.}

Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
2 Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King.

and

Hebrews 12:18-24 (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, 19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: 20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart: 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:) 

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

In all three of these instances, the city is confused with the mountain! And, what shape do most mountains take? Aren't they normally conical? Out of the two shapes, cube and pyramid, which one would appear more like a mountain from a distance?

Just know that there are good reasons for (1) believing that the New Jerusalem will have the general shape of a pyramid, and (2) that the New Jerusalem shall indeed land upon the New Earth, probably centered at the coordinates of old Jerusalem.

[Marilyn C]

15 hours ago, ENOCH2010 said:

Start reading at Rev:19 and continue through 20,21,and 22. That should give you a clear picture of what's ahead of us, if you will let the Word teach you and not listen to any man made doctrine.

It does NOT say ON the earth! Those in the New Jerusalem will be the rulership for the Principalities and Powers realm that the Lord made. (Col. 1: 16) Every real will have rulership under the Lord Jesus Christ.

[Uriah]

20 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

It does NOT say ON the earth! 

I concur.

 

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, Uriah.

Here's how it's done: First, the Scriptures NEVER says that the New Jerusalem is a cube! All it gives us is that its length, width, and height are all the same, 12,000 "furlongs" which is the Greek word "stadioon," the plural, masculine, genitive form of "stadios," and that it covers a square area; that is, it has a square footprint with four right angles.

It NEVER says it is a pyramid.

Revelation 21:16 (KJV)

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

In the pyramid configuration the above sentence could not be right. The height of the city would be less than equal to the wall height because the peak of each leans in.

The problem with that distance on the surface of the earth is that it covers almost 20 degrees (19.95 degrees) of the earth's circumference! (The earth's circumference is 24,901 miles at the equator.) That means that "down" at the middle gate of one side of the city will be 20 degrees different than "down" at the middle gate of the opposite side of the city! (And, both sides are about 10 degrees different than "down" in the middle of the city.) See, what YOU'VE shown above is that the city, being a perfect cube, would curve away from the ground on either side of the city, if the center of the city were able to rest upon the surface of the earth. Furthermore, if you do the math, it would be over 60 miles high (60.82275 mi) to the edge of the city from the surface of the ground at that point!

This has nothing to do with the declared parameters given in scriptures. You are only commenting on differences that come from a curved surface. the biblical measurements are not changed by this.

A second problem with a cube is that the TOP of the city would be SHORTER than the bottom of the city, when measured from the ground! Using your map above, if the bottom was over the Black Sea, the top would be somewhere over the middle of Turkey! And, that would be true on ALL FOUR SIDES of the cube!

See above.

 

Yes, I am going with a more satellite-like version. There is no reason, seeing as our own moon remains with the top and bottom in place. I see no problem for God to maintain the East/West bearing as well.

That's all I got for that , bro. ttyl

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, Marilyn C said:

It does NOT say ON the earth! Those in the New Jerusalem will be the rulership for the Principalities and Powers realm that the Lord made. (Col. 1: 16) Every real will have rulership under the Lord Jesus Christ.

Shalom, Marilyn C!

It's good to talk with you this fine morning! (Well, I STARTED this post this morning! LOL!)

Aw, sure it does. Maybe not in so many words to your liking, but it's there just the same. 

First, you've absolutely GOT to learn that the Greek word "ouranos" means the "sky!" Until you do, you will keep going on and on making the same mistake! Now, if you'd rather wait until the King Yeshua` must correct you personally (which may be a very humbling experience), that's up to you, but the contextual clues are there for all to see.

Study Matthew 16:1-4: (And, I'm using the KJV simply because they tried to translate it word for word from the Greek they had with as little altering as possible into English.)

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, 'It will be fair weather': for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, 'It will be foul weather to day': for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times? 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."

And he left them, and departed.

Now, here's the Greek:

Kata Maththaion 16:1-4 (UBS The Greek New Testament)

1 Kai proselthontes hoi Pharisaioi kai Saddukaioi peirazontes epeerooteesan auton seemeion ek tou ouranou epideixai autois. 2 Ho de apokritheis eipen autois,

"Opsias genomenees legete, 'Eudia,' purrazei gar ho ouranos; 3 kai prooi, 'Seemeron cheimoon,' purrazei gar stugnazoon ho ouranos. to men prosoopon tou ouranou ginooskete diakrinein, ta de seemeia toon kainoon ou dunasthe; 4 genea poneera kai moikalis seemeion epizeetei, kai seemeion ou dotheesetai autee ei mee ta seemeion."

Kai katalipoon autous apeelthen.

The Pharisees and the Sadducees meant the word as you do! Yeshua` turned it around and used the word THREE TIMES talking about "the sky!" What would a Greek-speaking person think about the word? He would notice that it was the same word FOUR times in this passage of Scripture.

But, what would an English-speaking person notice? He would notice that verse 1 has the words "from heaven," but Yeshua` used the words "the sky," "the sky," and "of the sky!"

Now, ask yourself, "Why would the English translators make a distinction between the word in verse 1 and verses 2 and 3 when there was no distinction in the Greek?"

Now, let's look at one of your favorite verses, Hebrews 12:22:

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, ...

And, again, the Greek:

Pros Hebraious 12:22 (UBS The Greek New Testament)

22 Alla proseleeluthate Sioon orei kai polei Theou zoontos, Ieerousaleem epouranioo, kai muriasin aggeloon, ...

Notice that, instead of "ouranos" here, we have "epouranioo" which is the dative form of the word "epouranios." And, "epouranios" is the adjective form of "epouranos," which means "above the sky." Here's how Strong's has it listed:

2032 epouranios (ep-oo-ran'-ee-os). From epi and ouranos; above the sky -- celestial, (in) heaven(-ly), high.

It's simple really. Right now, the city IS "above the sky," being constructed in space. Indeed, the crystals of such magnitude would be more easily formed in the weightlessness of space. But, when it comes down, we read:

Revelation 21:2 (KJV)

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Again, here's the Greek:

Apokalupsis Iooannou 21:2 (UBS The Greek New Testament)

2 Kai teen polin teen hagian Ieerousaleem kaineen eidon katabainousan ek tou ouranou apo tou Theou, heetoimasmeneen hoos numfeen kekosmeemeneen too andri autees.

Notice here that the word is the genitive form (ouranou) of ouranos. Literally, this verse reads:

2 And the city the holy Jerusalem new I-saw coming-down out-of the sky away-from the God, all-decked-out like a-bride prepared for-the man of-her.

All that to say this:

There's no such "white space" between the blue sky and the green grassy ground, as you see small kids draw. The sky MEETS the ground and we see that clearly at the horizon. IF the city comes down "out of the sky" (and it does), then it LANDS!

Edited October 7, 2020 by Retrobyter