What is a "soul?"

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all.

Sometimes, people will refer to an "eternal soul" or an "immortal soul" and will think of the "soul" as the "real you," as opposed to a person's body, but I'd like to discuss this point. The ramifications of the definition of such a thing as a "soul" are HUGE! And, how a person defines "soul" will determine how one looks at our final destiny. What does God promise about the future and how does it involve a person's "soul?"

Let me start with a few basic points, and we'll go from there:

First, the words translated as "soul" in the Scriptures are ...

"nefesh," spelled "nun-(segol)-fei-(segol)-shin," in the Hebrew of the TANAKH (the OT), often written "nephesh," and ...

"psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta,"  in the Greek of the B'rit Chadashah (the NT), often written "psuche" or "psyche."

Here are the entries in the dictionaries of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that correspond directly or indirectly to the word "soul":

5315 nephesh [nefesh] (neh'-fesh). From naphash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naphash [naafash] (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

5590 psuche [psuchee] (psoo-khay'). From psucho [psuchoo]; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe, [zooee], which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay)
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

5594 psucho [psuchoo] (psoo-kho'). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneo [pneoo], which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aer [aeer], which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively) -- wax cold.

This introduces us to a few more terms we should consider (presented in the order is which they were introduced) for this discussion:

4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah). From pneo [pneoo]; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a ; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare psuche.

2222 zoe [zooee] (zo-ay'). From zao [zaoo]; life (literally or figuratively)
-- life(-time). Compare psuche [psuchee].

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach (too-akh'); wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

2416 chay (khah-ee'). From chayah; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively
-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

4154 pneo [pneoo] (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze
-- blow. Compare psucho [psuchoo].

109 aer [aeer] (ah-ayr'). From aemi [aeemi] (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. Respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
-- air. Compare psucho [psuchoo].

and,

2198 zao [zaoo] (dzah'-o). A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively)
-- life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

2421 chayah [chaayaah] (khaw-yaw). A primitive root (compare chavah, chayah); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive
-- keep (live, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

The first occurrence of the word nefesh is NOT about the creation of the Man, Adam. The first occurrences are on a day earlier in the Creation Week:

Genesis 1:20-23 (KJV)

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

The important verse is ...

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This verse doesn't say anything about the LORD God forming the BODY of the man; it says that He formed the MAN of the dust of the ground! Then, He breathed into the nostrils of the man a puff of life, and the MAN became a living SOUL! a living, AiR-BREATHING CREATURE!

Now, notice the curse for Adam's sin:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he [God] said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

God didn't say his BODY was made of dust; He said to Adam, "YOU shall return unto the ground, for out of the ground YOU were taken!" He concludes "YOU are dust, and to dust YOU shall return!"

[Retrobyter]

Shalom to all.

Come on, now. Why do theologians claim that there's such a thing as an "immortal soul?" An "immortal air-breathing-creature?" CAN there be such a thing? If so, WHEN?

[warrior12]

33 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom to all.

Come on, now. Why do theologians claim that there's such a thing as an "immortal soul?" An "immortal air-breathing-creature?" CAN there be such a thing? If so, WHEN?

Watchman Nee wrote a two volume book on this subject titled  " The spiritual Man ".    Not an easy read, but takes you to an in-depth composition of  "Man" and  from creation to living being.  Worth the read.   

This book can be downloaded free in pdf format , just google it.

Here is an excerpt from the beginning of Chapter 1.

"Spirit, Soul and Body
The ordinary concept of the constitution of human beings is dualistic—soul and body. According to this concept soul is the invisible inner spiritual part, while body is the visible outer corporal part. Though there is some truth to this, it is nevertheless inaccurate. Such an opinion comes from fallen man, not from God; apart from God’s revelation, no concept is dependable. That the body is man’s outward sheath is undoubtedly correct, but the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as though they are the same. Not only are they different in terms; their very natures differ from each other. The Word of God does not divide man into the two parts of soul and body. It treats man, rather, as tripartite—spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5.23 reads: “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” This verse precisely shows that the whole man is divided into three parts."

Edited October 21, 2020 by warrior12

[Retrobyter]

22 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Watchman Nee wrote a two volume book on this subject titled  " The spiritual Man ".    Not an easy read, but takes you to an in-depth composition of  "Man" and  from creation to living being.  Worth the read.   

This book can be downloaded free in pdf format , just google it.

Here is an excerpt from the beginning of Chapter 1.

"Spirit, Soul and Body
The ordinary concept of the constitution of human beings is dualistic—soul and body. According to this concept soul is the invisible inner spiritual part, while body is the visible outer corporal part. Though there is some truth to this, it is nevertheless inaccurate. Such an opinion comes from fallen man, not from God; apart from God’s revelation, no concept is dependable. That the body is man’s outward sheath is undoubtedly correct, but the Bible never confuses spirit and soul as though they are the same. Not only are they different in terms; their very natures differ from each other. The Word of God does not divide man into the two parts of soul and body. It treats man, rather, as tripartite—spirit, soul and body. 1 Thessalonians 5.23 reads: “May the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be kept sound and blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” This verse precisely shows that the whole man is divided into three parts."

Shalom, warrior12.

Thank you. I appreciate your contribution.

Watchman Nee was a great man of God and a true blessing to China's past; however, it's important that one understand that he is just another man, and the Scriptures are much more powerful than any man's theological opinion.

I will also give you another man's opinion, that of Randy Alcorn in his book simply entitled Heaven. In "Appendix A: Christoplatonism's False Assumptions," he writes:

Quote

 

It's no coincidence that Paul wrote his detailed defense of physical resurrection to the Corinthians, who were immersed in the Greek philosophy of dualism. They'd been taught that the spiritual was incompatible with the physical. But Christ, in his incarnation and resurrection, laid claim not only to the spiritual realm but to the physical as well. His redemption wasn't only of spirits but also of bodies and the earth.

Plato was "the first Western philosopher to claim that reality is fundamentally something ideal or abstract. To think of the spiritual realm in physical terms or to envision God's presence in the physical world was to do it a disservice. Plato considered the body a liability, not an asset. "For Plato ... the body is a hindrance, as it opposes and even imprisons the soul (Phaedo 65-68; 91-94)."

But according to Scripture, our bodies aren't just shells for our spirits to inhabit; they're a good and essential aspect of our being. Likewise, the earth is not a second-rate location from which we must be delivered. Rather, it was handmade by God for us. Earth, not some incorporeal state, is God's choice as mankind's original and ultimate dwelling place.

 

He then added,

Quote

 

To distinguish the version of Platonism seen among Christians from secular forms of Platonism, I've coined the term Christoplatonism. This philosophy has blended elements of Platonism with Christianity, and in so doing has poisoned Christianity and blunted its distance differences from Eastern religions. Because appeals to Christoplatonism appear to take the spiritual high ground, attempts to refute this false philosophy often appear to be materialistic, hedonistic, or worldly.

Because of Christoplatonism's pervasive influence, we resist the biblical picture of bodily resurrection of the dead and life on the New Earth; of eating and drinking in Heaven; of walking and talking, living in dwelling places, traveling down streets, and going through gates from one place to another, and of ruling, working, playing, and engaging in earthly culture.

 

I believe he's absolutely RIGHT! The ONLY thing about which I disagree with Randy Alcorn is that there is a "Heaven."

I believe that "Heaven" is a MISNOMER. The place where there are streets of gold, gates of pearl, a golden city with walls of jasper, and has foundations is not "Heaven"; it's the New Jerusalem (or Yerushalayim haChadashah in Hebrew; see Revelation 21:1-22:4)! While the Scriptures DO talk about "heaven," the word refers to the atmosphere in which the birds fly and the clouds float.

Paul's letters recorded for us in New Testament Greek also give us additional words for "heaven," "heavens," "heavenly" and "heavenlies," as well as in the "midst of heaven," all of them stemming from the concept of the earth's atmosphere or the sky. "Ouranos" means the "sky" or the "atmosphere," as Yeshua` ("Jesus") used the word in Matthew 16:1-4. "Ouranios" means "of or belonging to the sky"; "mesouraneema" means "in the middle of the sky" and refers to where the birds fly in Revelation 19:11; "ouranothen" means "from the sky"; and "epouranios" means "of or belonging to above-the-sky." This is the word that is used in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41, referring to outer space where the sun, moon, and stars exist.

This is true for the Hebrew of the Old Testament, as well. While there's basically only ONE word used in Hebrew for the earth's atmosphere or sky, shaamayim, the compound words, "shmeey shaamayim" translated "the heaven of the heavens" actually means "the expanses of the expanses," for God called the expanse between the waters below the expanse and the waters above the expanse, "shaamayim." Therefore, I believe that "shmeey shaamayim" refers to outer space, for the waters above the expanse no longer exist in large quantities as it did before the Flood of Noach's time.

Thus, if there's no "Heaven" and we're anticipating the "New Jerusalem," and if there's no separate entity called a "soul," which actually means "an air-breathing creature," then one can see how VERY IMPORTANT the Resurrection of our bodies is! Some call this "soul sleep," but I call it something closer to reality; I call it "soul annihilation!" When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST! From that point on until the Resurrection, one who has died ONLY exists in the MIND OF GOD!

Passages of Scripture like 1 Thessalonians 5:23 merely mention the three "parts," but they do not explain how these three parts interact.

1 Thessalonians 5:23 (KJV)

23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 

I believe that we were always meant to think through a problem and come to a right conclusion, thinking with the power of the Ruwach haQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God).

The word "spirit" means "wind," and by analogy, it means "breath." By extension, this can also mean one's "speech." The "soul" means an "air-breathing creature," and the "body" (from the Greek word "soma") means "the lifeless bodies we are after death." These lifeless bodies, having died, begin almost immediately to decay and are buried to prevent contamination of those still living. They are buried in a place of memorial and are ASKED ABOUT by one's children. This translates to Hebrew as "sh'owl" or as it is typically written, "Sheol," which means "Asked about." Unfortunately, in the same influence of Christoplatonism described above, "Sheol" is translated as "hell," with all the imaginations that word conjures, as a counterpart to the "Heaven" that Christoplatonism supports!

Just something to think about.

Thus, these three things are NOT three things that work together to make a human being; rather, they are more disjoint from each other but are still three things that Paul wanted preserved: their teaching or speech, their actions while alive, and their memory.      

[warrior12]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

halom, warrior12.

Thank you. I appreciate your contribution.

Watchman Nee was a great man of God and a true blessing to China's past; however, it's important that one understand that he is just another man, and the Scriptures are much more powerful than any man's theological opinion

 

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I believe he's absolutely RIGHT! The ONLY thing about which I disagree with Randy Alcorn is that there is a "Heaven."

So Watchman Nee is just another man and has a theological opinion and You , Retobyter believes another man is "Absolutely right", even though you think his is an opinion also. You see the contradiction.   

On 10/19/2020 at 6:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

God didn't say his BODY was made of dust; He said to Adam, "YOU shall return unto the ground, for out of the ground YOU were taken!" He concludes "YOU are dust, and to dust YOU shall return!"

"God didn''t say his Body was made of dust" as you said above.   You play with words to fit your narrative of the "word" which is a dangerous path that leads into many pitfalls. 

I wonder how many here agrees with your statement, and if his [man] body was not made of dust then what was is made of.   

Now tell me how to conclude from the verse below, how man was formed. Please give me some Greek, Hebrew or other words and expound on it to show how it differs from the English translation below.   

Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)

⁷ And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

Edited October 23, 2020 by warrior12

[Mantis]

Spirit + flesh = soul

[missmuffet]

The human soul is the part of a person that is not physical. It is a part of every human being that lasts an eternity. For believers in heaven and for non believers in hell. 

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, warrior12 said:

 

So Watchman Nee is just another man and has a theological opinion and You , Retobyter believes another man is "Absolutely right", even though you think his is an opinion also. You see the contradiction.   

Shalom, warrior12.

(It's almost Shabbat, being Friday and Shabbat starts at sundown. So, if this post is postponed, then Shabbat shalom.)

Not really. See, we ALL have opinions but WHICH opinions are closest to the truth of God's Word? THAT'S the issue! Randy Alcorn, like everyone else, is not right about everything; however, ON THE POINTS HE MADE ABOUT WHAT HE CALLS "CHRISTOPLATONISM," I believe that He is DEAD ON! It FITS with history, and it explains many things in the Scriptures that others take as "difficult passages" or "problem texts."

See, I'm not afraid to ask the hard questions - the "taboo" questions, the questions others ARE squeamish to broach. I guess I've been doing it all my life, being a preacher's kid. I was ALWAYS disagreeing with others in school about philosophy, theology and the subject of God, but I always had my church family and my theology into which I could retreat. However, with the failings of a personal "hero of the faith," I questioned even those shelters.

Watchman Nee, like Randy Alcorn, was right about many things and was courageous to take the gospel to the Chinese people, but he, too, was imperfect and fallible.

17 hours ago, warrior12 said:

"God didn''t say his Body was made of dust" as you said above.   You play with words to fit your narrative of the "word" which is a dangerous path that leads into many pitfalls. 

I wonder how many here agrees with your statement, and if his [man] body was not made of dust then what was is made of.   

I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not saying that the Man's body was made of some other substance; I was saying that the Man WAS the body!

In dealing with English-speaking people, I always use a transliteration scheme rather than confuse people with the Hebrew block letters. However, I also always try to use italics for a transliteration of any foreign language, whether Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek for biblical transliterations.

The Hebrew word for "the man" here is "haa'aadaam," spelled "hei-alef-dalet-mem-sofit," four Hebrew letters. 

The Hebrew "hei-" is like our letter "h" in sound and is a prefix that is Hebrew's definite article translated as "the" in English. Without it, the noun MAY be translated with an indefinite article, "a" or "an."

The "alef," represented by the apostrophe (' ), is a letter we don't have in English; however, we DO have the sound, even if it's not independently identified. It's the explosive sound we hear at the beginning of certain words that begin with vowels, like "apple," "egg," or "umbrella."

The "dalet" is like our letter "d" sound.

The "mem sofit" means an "ending mem." The "mem" is like our letter "m" in sound, which has two different forms: One form is used at the beginning and in the middle of words, and the other form is used solely at the end of words.

Thus, strictly speaking, the word is spelled as "h-'-d-m." Vowel pointing may also be added, usually for foreigners or children, for clarity in how the vowels are to be voiced between these letters. In this particular case, all of the vowel pointing is the single sound, "qamets," which is transliterated (for me) as "aa" and is pronounced like the "aw" in "saw." Inserting this vowel pointing into the word, we get, "haa'aadaam."

The Hebrew root word spelled " '-d-m" means "red." Thus, the word means "the-red-[man]." Thus, the NAME "Adam" means "the-red-[man]." This word was taken from another word, "haa'adaamaah," which is a feminine form of "haa'aadaam," that is translated as and means "the-red-[ground]."

 

17 hours ago, warrior12 said:

Now tell me how to conclude from the verse below, how man was formed. Please give me some Greek, Hebrew or other words and expound on it to show how it differs from the English translation below.   

Genesis 2 King James Version (KJV)

⁷ And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul

Okay, here's the Hebrew (transliterated) of this same verse: (I've added the beginning alef  [' ], however I normally don't include it since the English word, beginning with a vowel, usually includes the alef sound anyway.)

B'reeshiyt 2:7 (JPS Hebrew-English TANAKH)

7 Vayyiytser YHWH 'Elohiym 'et haa'aadaam `aafaar min-haa'adaamaah vayyipach b'apaayow nishmat chayyiym vayhiy haa'aadaam l-nefesh chayyaah:

7 Vayyiytser = 7 And-formed
YHWH = YHWH (the LORD)
'Elohiym = God
'et = (the next word is the direct object)
haa'aadaam = the-red-[man]
`aafaar = of-dust
min-= from
haa'adaamaah = the-red-[ground]
vayyipach = and-puffed
b'apaayow = into-his-nostrils
nishmat = a-puff
chayyiym = of-living-[things]
vayhiy = and-became
haa'aadaam = the-red-[man]
l-nefesh = into-an-air-breathing-creature
chayyaah: = living:

Putting it all together, we get ...

7 And-formed YHWH (the LORD) God the-red-[man] (d.o.) of-dust from the-red-[ground] and-puffed into-his-nostrils a-puff of-living-[things] and-became the-red-[man] into-an-air-breathing-creature living:

Slightly rearranging the words into English order (subject-verb-direct-object), we get ...

7 And YHWH (the LORD) God formed the red [man] of dust from the red [ground] and puffed into his nostrils a puff of living [things] and the red [man] became into a living, air-breathing creature. 

So, similar to how a person is revived by a person trained in CPR, God puffed the puff of life into the first Man. HOWEVER, He puffed the puff of life into the first MAN, not "the body of the Man!" Hebrew has words that mean "body," like "geviyah" (meaning a "lifeless corpse"), if that's what God wanted to say. He didn't say that, though!

[Retrobyter]

1 hour ago, missmuffet said:

The human soul is the part of a person that is not physical. It is a part of every human being that lasts an eternity. For believers in heaven and for non believers in hell. 

Shalom, missmuffet.

... OR so goes the theological rhetoric! THEOLOGY, which is mostly the thoughts of fallible MEN, says, "The human soul is the part of a person that is not physical"! BIBLICALLY speaking, that's NOT TRUE! This idea that the "human soul ... is not physical" is what Mr. Alcorn and I are talking about! It comes from this concept of "Christoplatonism" that was introduced into the Christianity of the First, Second, and Third Centuries A.D! It's a GREEK PHILOSOPHICAL INTRUSION into Christianity that Origen and others introduced!

I believe you're right that "The human soul ... lasts an eternity." However, it doesn't happen until AFTER a person is raised back to life! That's why the Resurrection is so important! The human air-breathing creature ... lasts an eternity" "for believers in 'Heaven' (which is really the New Earth, its New Sky, and the New Jerusalem) and for non-believers in 'Hell' (which is really the Lake of Fire and Sulfur)!"

Understand what I'm saying?

Edited October 23, 2020 by Retrobyter
to fix my English

[missmuffet]

29 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, missmuffet.

... OR so goes the theological rhetoric! THEOLOGY, which is mostly the thoughts of fallible MEN, says, "The human soul is the part of a person that is not physical"! BIBLICALLY speaking, that's NOT TRUE! This idea that the "human soul ... is not physical" is what Mr. Alcorn and I are talking about! It comes from this concept of "Christoplatonism" that was introduced into the Christianity of the First, Second, and Third Centuries A.D! It's a GREEK PHILOSOPHICAL INTRUSION into Christianity that Origen and others introduced!

I believe you're right that "The human soul ... lasts an eternity." However, it doesn't happen until AFTER a person is raised back to life! That's why the Resurrection is so important! The human air-breathing creature ... lasts an eternity" "for believers in 'Heaven' (which is really the New Earth, its New Sky, and the New Jerusalem) and for non-believers in 'Hell' (which is really the Lake of Fire and Sulfur)!"

Understand what I'm saying?

Our soul meets with our body and our body is then a glorified resurrected body. This happens with the believers. Although the soul meets with the resurrected body for those who are not believers as well to be judged at the Great White Throne judgment. They will all be thrown into hell with a eternal and conscious awareness forever and ever never ending.