What is a "soul?"

[Frits]

13 hours ago, Josheb said:

Same question I asked others: If the soul is the intersection of body and soul, as some have stated, does God then have a body? Christian doctrine has long held the does not (although both the incarnation and the premise no one can look upon Him and live would seem to indicate otherwise (did you catch that last part @Frits?) If the soul is the intersection of the spirit and soul and God has no body how then can He have a soul (yet clearly, as Frits has shown us, God claims Himself to have a soul). Is His soul a product of Spirit and body? Are we then to argue God's constituent elements can be separated they way some here have argued the human body, soul, and spirit can be separated? 

 

Assuming these inquiries are answered in a consistent manner it would appear we can readily discard the classic tripartite model without injury to conscience or disobedience to God's word and rethink (pun intended ) that paradigm. While useful, the tripartite model proves too inconsistent with the whole of scripture. 

Hi Josheb,

Your comments partly matched Charlie's.  Please forgive me if I ask you to take a look at the answer I gave Charlie.

God bless you.

[Charlie744]

57 minutes ago, Frits said:

Hi Charlie,

Of course, the will to die does not belong to us, we all want to stay with our loved ones.  Me too.
But Paul is referring to the glory of Christ Jesus and he would like to rejoice in that after a hard time of service on earth.
Dying is no reason for the born-again Christian to be afraid of. The holy angels will continue to accompany him into the glory of the Kingdom of the Lord Jesus Christ. (2Tim.4:18) There is no intermediate station for this Christian, he does not see death and does not enter hades when he dies.  He lives because God's word Jesus Christ made him alive, and he lives even though he died.  (John 11:25)
As for the statement that the soul is the "product of the earth" and the Spirit of God, I do not subscribe.
The soul does not dependent on the earth, because the soul of God Himself already existed before there was any mention of the earth.  The human soul is also not dependent on 'earth' or 'the earth'.
The spirit and soul belong together as a whole, and are located in the heavenly realms. There the believing child of God already has a personal spiritual body.
 When a person is spiritually dead "through trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2: 1), spirit and soul are in the "shadow of death", that is, in darkness.
The Lord Jesus, as you know, came to us to deliver us from this darkness, to raise us up to eternal life through His preaching.  On the day that we hear the Lord Jesus and take hold of Him, become our mind and soul transferred in the light of His Kingdom.

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son"
(Col.1:13)

In addition, I think to suppose that the soul is the 'product' of spirit and earth, is ment in order that the place and the final destination of man is always 'earthly' on the earth.  The thought is, man was created on the earth and he should stay there.  You can even have 'all the kingdoms of the world', as long as you don't make a claim to heaven!  (Luke 4: 6.7)
But that is exactly what I intend to, I will follow the Lord Jesus in heaven.
Are you coming too, Charlie?

God bless you.
 

Thank you Frits. I certainly hope I will be joining you! God bless, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

35 minutes ago, Frits said:

Hi Josheb,

Your comments partly matched Charlie's.  Please forgive me if I ask you to take a look at the answer I gave Charlie.

God bless you.

Well thank you very much for the compliment Frits... I am at least partially right!  Charlie 

[Frits]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

vague and not actually about the nature of the soul. It also appears to contain the implication the soul and spirit are inherently immortal or eternal and if that is what is intended that that is just wrong.

Hi Josheb,

I think my answer is indeed about the soul, but I suppose that your idea of the soul is based on unbiblical assumptions, I'll explain that. The soul is definitely eternal:
1) Either with the Lord Jesus in His Kingdom for all eternity.
2) Or forever in a desolate state and completely dismantled in the lake of fire, where their 'worm' does not die! (Mar.9:44,46,48)

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Nothing is eternal but God and the fact the soul can be destroyed has already been well covered in earlier posts. 

 I have not seen the earlier posts that the soul could be destroyed, but the soul never disappears completely. As said, it enters into the Kingdom of God in everlasting bliss. Or the soul attaches itself to the devil and becomes one with him, and subsequently disappears together with the devil into the lake of fire.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

It also doesn't actually answer the questions I have asked.

If you still have specific questions bro, please ask them briefly again. I do my best to read everything and answer all questions.

God bless you.
 

Edited December 21, 2020 by Frits

[Alive]

1 hour ago, Frits said:

Hi Josheb,

I think my answer is indeed about the soul, but I suppose that your idea of the soul is based on unbiblical assumptions, I'll explain that. The soul is definitely eternal:
1) Either with the Lord Jesus in His Kingdom for all eternity.
2) Or forever in a desolate state and completely dismantled in the lake of fire, where their 'worm' does not die! (Mar.9:44,46,48)

 I have not seen the earlier posts that the soul could be destroyed, but the soul never disappears completely. As said, it enters into the Kingdom of God in everlasting bliss. Or the soul attaches itself to the devil and becomes one with him, and subsequently disappears together with the devil into the lake of fire.

If you still have specific questions bro, please ask them briefly again. I do my best to read everything and answer all questions.

God bless you.
 

Just curious--what do you do with this verse?

Ezek. 18:4 (ESVS) Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

I forgot this verse...sorry.

Matt. 10:28 (ESVS) And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Thayer (Greek Entry)

622. ἀπόλλυμι; apollumi and apolluō ((apolluei John 12:25 T Tr WH), imperative apollue Rom. 14:15 (cf. Buttmann, 45 (39); WH’s Appendix, p. 168f)); …

Mounce Greek Dictionary (Greek Entry)

GK G660 | S G622   ἀπόλλυμι   apollymi   90x  

to destroy utterly; to kill, Mt. 2:13; to bring to nought, make void, 1 Cor. 1:19; …

Greek Strong’s Dictionary (Greek Entry)

622. ἀπόλλυμι apollumi, ap-ol´-loo-mee; from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), …

NIDNTT (Greek Entry)

ἀπώλεια G724 (apōleia), destruction; ἀπόλλυμι G660 (apollymi), destroy; Ἀπολλύων G661 (Apollyōn), Apollyon, Destroyer.

Edited December 21, 2020 by Alive
added stuff

[Frits]

16 minutes ago, Alive said:

ἀπόλλυμι apollumi

a) to destroy

b) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

c) render useless

d) to kill

e) to declare that one must be put to death

d) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

e) to perish, to be lost, ruined

You see, Alive, it means a bit more.

According to the words of our Lord Jesus, people who sided with the devil face eternal punishment.

So if there were no soul and spirit, these people's punishment for disobedience and rebellion would not be eternal.

'Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mat.25:43)

[Alive]

22 minutes ago, Frits said:

a) to destroy

b) to put out of the way entirely, abolish, put an end to ruin

c) render useless

d) to kill

e) to declare that one must be put to death

d) metaphorically to devote or give over to eternal misery in hell

e) to perish, to be lost, ruined

You see, Alive, it means a bit more.

According to the words of our Lord Jesus, people who sided with the devil face eternal punishment.

So if there were no soul and spirit, these people's punishment for disobedience and rebellion would not be eternal.

'Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels' (Mat.25:43)

Thanks for answering my question. These things have been dealt with in other threads in detail, so let's save it for another day.

For the record--I do not believe in a everlasting eternal forever torturing of individuals. I believe in a measure of punishment and then annihilation. To cease to exist 'is' by definition an eternal punishment. Eternally without existence separate from God.

Here is a link to one of those threads. Its  along one. Don't let the title throw you off.

 

[Frits]

43 minutes ago, Alive said:

Thanks for answering my question. These things have been dealt with in other threads in detail, so let's save it for another day.

For the record--I do not believe in a everlasting eternal forever torturing of individuals. I believe in a measure of punishment and then annihilation. To cease to exist 'is' by definition an eternal punishment. Eternally without existence separate from God.

Alive, I gladly answered your question.

I agree with you, let's stick to the topic.
The crux of course lies in the fact that with 'ceasing to exist' you assume that, when the punishment is undergone, the soul will also cease to exist.  So that consciousness will no longer be there.
But if a criminal does not have to consciously undergo the punishment that comes with his conviction, it is a punishment without meaning.  Not only does this not find any support in the Bible, but it is also illogical from a common sense point of view.

God bless.

[Alive]

34 minutes ago, Frits said:

Alive, I gladly answered your question.

I agree with you, let's stick to the topic.
The crux of course lies in the fact that with 'ceasing to exist' you assume that, when the punishment is undergone, the soul will also cease to exist.  So that consciousness will no longer be there.
But if a criminal does not have to consciously undergo the punishment that comes with his conviction, it is a punishment without meaning.  Not only does this not find any support in the Bible, but it is also illogical from a common sense point of view.

God bless.

OK---show me where in scripture it says that eternal life exists outside of Christ. I can cite many that say that eternal life is for those 'In Christ'. And that Christ is Life. If ya don't eat from the tree--you die.

[David1701]

23 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, David1701.

LOL! Ironically, you're both right and wrong! I don't think your understanding of "soul" is correct; nevertheless, God the Word, who BECAME FLESH, Yeshua` the Messiah ("Jesus the Christ"), IS a soul - an "air-breathing creature!" Not only that, but since Jesus Christ, "the same yesterday, today, and forever," is therefore "immutable," then He IS an "immutable soul!"

"Soul", from Gen. 2, can mean "air-breathing creature", but that is far from its only usage, in other places in the Bible; so, while I agree with what you posted, from "...God the word.." onwards, there is more to it than that.

Edited December 21, 2020 by David1701