What is a "soul?"

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

We're physically born when "the water breaks." That's what He meant when He said, "Except a man be born of water..." in verse 5. In verse 8, He was telling us that from a human perspective, one cannot tell if another has been "born of the spirit," unless he or she TELLS us for "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks."

Well that is your opinion. And how wrong can a person be? 

Jesus is explaining the need for water baptism by full immersion - death, burial and resurrection - later upheld in action and doctrinally explained throughout Acts and the epistles. 

There are two required baptisms for the born new again disciple to enter the kingdom of God - water and Spirit. 

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Waggles said:

Well that is your opinion. And how wrong can a person be? 

Jesus is explaining the need for water baptism by full immersion - death, burial and resurrection - later upheld in action and doctrinally explained throughout Acts and the epistles. 

Shalom, Waggles.

LOL! How wrong indeed! Yeshua` explained what He meant in the VERY NEXT VERSE!

John 3:4-6 (KJV)

4 Nicodemus saith unto him,

"How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?"

5 Jesus answered,

"Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be ...

(1) born of water and ...
2) [born] of the Spirit, ...

he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 

6 (1) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and ...
(2) that which is born of the Spirit is spirit."

Yeshua` explained that being born of water was being born of the flesh.

Quote

There are two required baptisms for the born new again disciple to enter the kingdom of God - water and Spirit. 

Water baptism is merely a PICTURE that represents the death, burial and resurrection that Yeshua` experienced. There's no efficacy in justification ("salvation") in water baptism. Baptism is a way for the new believer to identify with others of like faith. And, in some families, to be baptized could mean being shunned or ostracized or disowned.

Sometimes, people errantly say that the Great Commission in Mark 16:16 is proof that baptism plays a part in "salvation" (justification), but they neglect the latter part of the verse:

Mark 16:14-18 (KJV)

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15 And he said unto them,

"Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

See, they neglect the part that says, "he that believeth not shall be damned," which doesn't say anything about baptism at all, and it should have been mentioned if one is not "saved" without baptism being a part of the process!

And, the REAL issue is that "salvation" is not about one's justification by God! It is a word that signifies the RESCUE or DELIVERANCE of God's people, the children of Israel, in the last days. This is especially seen in the prophecies of the TANAKH (the "Old Testament").

Edited April 12, 2021 by Retrobyter
to fix wording

[warrior12]

11 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

The thing one must understand is that the death of Yeshua` the Messiah and the blood that was poured out as a Sacrifice was the MEANS by which we can be justified by God, but the actual justification is done when God detects a repentant heart and DECLARES that person "His righteousness," in spite of his or her sins. THAT'S when one is "born again."

Right then.  

But you must agree that the born again man has been made aware of his new nature by his acknowledgement of the spiritual man that he is now become and made aware of.  If you deny this, then how can Romans 8 be understood then, as it points exactly to the renewed or born again to recognize that he is indeed a spiritual man.  The difference being, before his salvation or born again experience, he was not aware of his spiritual nature, now he is fully assured, hence the verse below.

Romans 8 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)

¹⁶ The Spirit Himself [thus] testifies together with our own spirit, [assuring us] that we are children of God.

[Waggles]

I have come into this thread very very late - page 69 wow - 

OK our soul cannot just be our physical air-breathing bodies for there are far too many scriptures concerning spirit and soul and bodies and afterlife, etc.

What about after death or near death experiences when people actually die for a short while and can see their own body from afar, or allegedly 

have visions (many and varied) and then wham - back into their bodies and the real world. 

Does any of this tell us something about soul and spirit - our consciousness.

Interesting how scripture always refers to the heart as the seat of inner thoughts and desires. 

19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, fornication, theft, false witness, slander.  Matthew 15:

23 Keep your heart with all vigilance;
    for from it flow the springs of life. Proverbs 4:

[DeighAnn]

On 4/8/2021 at 10:18 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

SURE it does! A seed BECOMES a plant! Have you no experience with growing things? That's what Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 15 when he mentioned the two bodies! But, I guess you'll just have to see it again: (I'll just mention this, in case you've forgotten; the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "nefesh" is "psuchee," both mean the "an air-breathing creature," and its adjective form is "psuchikon.")

1 Corinthians 15:35- (KJV)

35 But some man will say,

"How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened (brought back to life), except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is SOWN in corruption; it is RAISED in incorruption: 43 It is SOWN in dishonour; it is RAISED in glory: it is SOWN in weakness; it is RAISED in power: 44 IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written,

"The (first) man (Adam) was made a living soul"; (Genesis 2:7)

the last Adam was made a quickening spirit (a life-giving wind). 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

And, verse 46 proves that each one of us is not a "spiritual body" (Greek: sooma pneumatikon = "air-blasting body") first; each of us is first a "soul-ual" body (Greek: sooma psuchikon = "air-breathing body")! We are MADE spiritual bodies when we rise in the General Resurrection at the Messiah's Coming! And, every planted seed TAKES TIME to sprout!

One at a time.

Well, the reason why you feel this is so important is right there in 1 Corinthians 15, too. It's in verse 50:

1 Corinthians 15:50-57 (KJV)

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, AT THE LAST TRUMP: for THE TRUMPET SHALL SOUND, and THE DEAD SHALL BE RAISED INCORRUPTIBLE, and WE SHALL BE CHANGED. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

"Death is swallowed up in victory."

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

But, to prove to you that flesh is still important and does NOT go away, remember Yeshua`s words in Luke after His Resurrection:

Luke 2436-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them,

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for A SPIRIT HATH NOT FLESH AND BONES, AS YE SEE ME HAVE."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat (food)? 

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

Yeshua`s Resurrection body was (and still is) a "flesh and bones" body!

We are two different kinds of bodies, but NOT AT THE SAME TIME! The first one must either (1) BE CHANGED AT THE GENERAL RESURRECTION WHEN THE MESSIAH RETURNS, or (2) DIE, AND BE RAISED, CHANGED INTO A RESURRECTION BODY WHEN THE MESSIAH RETURNS!

THAT'S what Paul told us!

I am a spiritual body covered in flesh.  There are angels ascending and descending on Jacobs ladder, the spiritual seeds being planted in the human flesh.   ALL of them souls before being covered in flesh, all of them souls when ascending as they descended aka returning to the father.  YES, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SAME UNDERSTANDING, I UNDERSTAND.  SO.......

Here is the tiny little perfect seed.  We put it in the ground and give it some food and water.  WHAT happens to that seed?  It breaks apart and a plant grows CONSUMING that tiny seed until that tiny seed is NO MORE and in its place is a plant.  THAT SEED CAN NEVER BECOME A SEED AGAIN.  It has CHANGED into something completely different.  It is sown a seed,  it is raised/COMES UP a plant.  

AND AGAIN, you can stay in death/sleep if you would like but as for me, I am passing through death and returning back to God and then returning back to the earth with Christ when He returns for the day of vengeance.  HOW do I know this?  Because I am not ignorant, 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him.

AND Yes, I understand you will be waiting for the last day to be raised out of the grave the body that has been decaying and eaten by worms re-newed.  

As you read Paul.  

[BeyondET]

On 10/19/2020 at 6:54 PM, Retrobyter said:

Shalom to all.

Sometimes, people will refer to an "eternal soul" or an "immortal soul" and will think of the "soul" as the "real you," as opposed to a person's body, but I'd like to discuss this point. The ramifications of the definition of such a thing as a "soul" are HUGE! And, how a person defines "soul" will determine how one looks at our final destiny. What does God promise about the future and how does it involve a person's "soul?"

Let me start with a few basic points, and we'll go from there:

First, the words translated as "soul" in the Scriptures are ...

"nefesh," spelled "nun-(segol)-fei-(segol)-shin," in the Hebrew of the TANAKH (the OT), often written "nephesh," and ...

"psuchee," spelled "psi-upsilon-chi-eta,"  in the Greek of the B'rit Chadashah (the NT), often written "psuche" or "psyche."

Here are the entries in the dictionaries of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that correspond directly or indirectly to the word "soul":

5315 nephesh [nefesh] (neh'-fesh). From naphash; properly, a breathing creature, i.e. Animal of (abstractly) vitality; used very widely in a literal, accommodated or figurative sense (bodily or mental)
-- any, appetite, beast, body, breath, creature, X dead(-ly), desire, X (dis-)contented, X fish, ghost, + greedy, he, heart(-y), (hath, X jeopardy of) life (X in jeopardy), lust, man, me, mind, mortally, one, own, person, pleasure, (her-, him-, my-, thy-)self, them (your)-selves, + slay, soul, + tablet, they, thing, (X she) will, X would have it.

5314 naphash [naafash] (naw-fash'). A primitive root; to breathe; passively, to be breathed upon, i.e. (figuratively) refreshed (as if by a current of air)
-- (be) refresh selves (-ed).

5590 psuche [psuchee] (psoo-khay'). From psucho [psuchoo]; breath, i.e. (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from pneuma, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from zoe, [zooee], which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew nephesh, ruwach and chay)
-- heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.

5594 psucho [psuchoo] (psoo-kho'). A primary verb; to breathe (voluntarily but gently, thus differing on the one hand from pneo [pneoo], which denotes properly a forcible respiration; and on the other from the base of aer [aeer], which refers properly to an inanimate breeze), i.e. (by implication, of reduction of temperature by evaporation) to chill (figuratively) -- wax cold.

This introduces us to a few more terms we should consider (presented in the order is which they were introduced) for this discussion:

4151 pneuma (pnyoo'-mah). From pneo [pneoo]; a current of air, i.e. Breath (blast) or a ; by analogy or figuratively, a spirit, i.e. (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, demon, or (divine) God, Christ's spirit, the Holy Spirit
-- ghost, life, spirit(-ual, -ually), mind. Compare psuche.

2222 zoe [zooee] (zo-ay'). From zao [zaoo]; life (literally or figuratively)
-- life(-time). Compare psuche [psuchee].

7307 ruwach (roo'-akh). From ruwach (too-akh'); wind; by resemblance breath, i.e. A sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively, life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension, a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions)
-- air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit((-ual)), tempest, X vain, ((whirl-))wind(-y).

2416 chay (khah-ee'). From chayah; alive; hence, raw (flesh); fresh (plant, water, year), strong; also (as noun, especially in the feminine singular and masculine plural) life (or living thing), whether literally or figuratively
-- + age, alive, appetite, (wild) beast, company, congregation, life(-time), live(-ly), living (creature, thing), maintenance, + merry, multitude, + (be) old, quick, raw, running, springing, troop.

4154 pneo [pneoo] (pneh'-o). A primary word; to breathe hard, i.e. Breeze
-- blow. Compare psucho [psuchoo].

109 aer [aeer] (ah-ayr'). From aemi [aeemi] (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. Respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)
-- air. Compare psucho [psuchoo].

and,

2198 zao [zaoo] (dzah'-o). A primary verb; to live (literally or figuratively)
-- life(-time), (a-)live(-ly), quick.

2421 chayah [chaayaah] (khaw-yaw). A primitive root (compare chavah, chayah); to live, whether literally or figuratively; causatively, to revive
-- keep (live, make) alive, X certainly, give (promise) life, (let, suffer to) live, nourish up, preserve (alive), quicken, recover, repair, restore (to life), revive, (X God) save (alive, life, lives), X surely, be whole.

The first occurrence of the word nefesh is NOT about the creation of the Man, Adam. The first occurrences are on a day earlier in the Creation Week:

Genesis 1:20-23 (KJV)

20 And God said,

"Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22 And God blessed them, saying,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth."

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

The important verse is ...

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This verse doesn't say anything about the LORD God forming the BODY of the man; it says that He formed the MAN of the dust of the ground! Then, He breathed into the nostrils of the man a puff of life, and the MAN became a living SOUL! a living, AiR-BREATHING CREATURE!

Now, notice the curse for Adam's sin:

Genesis 3:17-19 (KJV)

17 And unto Adam he [God] said,

"Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, 'Thou shalt not eat of it': cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."

God didn't say his BODY was made of dust; He said to Adam, "YOU shall return unto the ground, for out of the ground YOU were taken!" He concludes "YOU are dust, and to dust YOU shall return!"

Haven’t quite gotten what the post is saying, from Eccl 12:7 it appears to be a separation of body n soul.

Ecclesiastes 12

7before the dust returns to the ground from which it came and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

[Waggles]

WHAT IS A SOUL? can we get clues from god's creation?

      

from husks to shells to kernels - the inner fruit

[Retrobyter]

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

I am a spiritual body covered in flesh.  There are angels ascending and descending on Jacobs ladder, the spiritual seeds being planted in the human flesh.   ALL of them souls before being covered in flesh, all of them souls when ascending as they descended aka returning to the father.  YES, YOU DO NOT HAVE THE SAME UNDERSTANDING, I UNDERSTAND.  SO.......

Shalom, DeighAnn.

No. Jacob was having a DREAM!!! It meant ONLY that He was at a spot that should be noted as God's House! Hebrew: Beit-Eel ("Bethel") = the "House of God." This was the spot that housed the Tabernacle when the children of Israel arrived in the Land from Egypt.

Angels are NOT "souls," nor are you a "spiritual body covered in flesh." I don't know where you get such a notion, but it does NOT come from the Scriptures!  

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Here is the tiny little perfect seed.  We put it in the ground and give it some food and water.  WHAT happens to that seed?  It breaks apart and a plant grows CONSUMING that tiny seed until that tiny seed is NO MORE and in its place is a plant.  THAT SEED CAN NEVER BECOME A SEED AGAIN.  It has CHANGED into something completely different.  It is sown a seed,  it is raised/COMES UP a plant.  

Precisely! And, that process TAKES TIME! You're not wrong on this: The plant that comes out of the ground is of a different caliber than the seed that goes into the ground, and that IS what Paul was teaching us. HOWEVER, that is not a "same-day" change!

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

AND AGAIN, you can stay in death/sleep if you would like but as for me, I am passing through death and returning back to God and then returning back to the earth with Christ when He returns for the day of vengeance.  HOW do I know this?  Because I am not ignorant, 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus
will God bring with Him.

God will bring those of us who sleep in Yeshua` with Yeshua` NOT from some "Heaven" but from where we will be awakened from sleep! He's bringing us with Yeshua` TO ISRAEL! Why is that? Because He'll be on a MISSION to stop the genocide of His people! Meanwhile, most of us will have to be brought up to speed first; we won't be ready to help in the fight. However, that's a good thing, because our part in the war will be like the Red Cross! We'll be there not to help with the fighting, but to care for the injured and ensure the rescue efforts of those escaping from Jerusalem!

18 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

AND Yes, I understand you will be waiting for the last day to be raised out of the grave the body that has been decaying and eaten by worms re-newed.  

As you read Paul.  

Then you should also be aware that those descriptive words will in no way be accurate for the body that is raised from the dead! We know that those who have died will come back as PHYSICAL AND POWERFUL bodies because that's how Yeshua` came back to life!

[Waggles]

Hello anybody out there ?? 

OK our soul cannot just be our physical air-breathing bodies for there are far too many scriptures concerning spirit and soul and bodies and afterlife, etc.

What about after death or near death experiences when people actually die for a short while and can see their own body from afar, or allegedly have visions (many and varied) and then wham - back into their bodies and the real world. 

Does any of this tell us something about soul and spirit - our consciousness which can separate from our bodies. 

[Retrobyter]

On 4/13/2021 at 11:40 PM, Waggles said:

Hello anybody out there ??

Shalom, Waggles.

For about another minute or two. Then, it's off to bed.

Quote

OK our soul cannot just be our physical air-breathing bodies for there are far too many scriptures concerning spirit and soul and bodies and afterlife, etc.

Yes, there are a lot of Scriptures and most of them are read incorrectly.

Quote

What about after death or near death experiences when people actually die for a short while and can see their own body from afar, or allegedly have visions (many and varied) and then wham - back into their bodies and the real world. 

It's called "hallucinations." When we are deprived of oxygen for some extended period, the result is a feeling most of us have never experienced. There's a sense of euphoria and disorientation. Our brains MAKE THINGS UP! Read about the OBE's that Muslims or Bhuddists have, and they are FAR different than those recorded by Christians.

Quote

Does any of this tell us something about soul and spirit - our consciousness which can separate from our bodies. 

Yes, it tells us that we have VERY VIVID imaginations!

Edited April 16, 2021 by Retrobyter
to fix sleepiness