What is a "soul?"

[Speks]

  

On 10/23/2020 at 9:13 PM, enoob57 said:

It is in the simplicity of Scripture we understand that our physical makeup is of the clay but life did not come to the clay until God breathed (spirit) into the clay and it was then classified as a living soul

This is an entirely appropriate conclusion to reach based on the whole of Scripture, including the likes of Ecclesiastes 12:7, Isaiah 42:5, James 2:26... The divine breath is indeed life and spirit.

The fullness of the Hebrew definition is: “1. breath of God as hot wind kindling a flame; as destroying wind; as cold wind producing ice; as creative, giving breath to man. 2. breath of man; breath of life; as breathed in by God it is God’s breath in man; and it is characteristic of man. 3. syn. of every breathing thing. 4. spirit of man” (from Brown-Driver-Briggs).

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

(poorly translated as a "natural body")

I’m always a little cagey when I come across a comment like this. We ought to flag it simply because the major versions translate the Greek “natural body” (1st Corinthians 15:44).

This means a single student is pitting himself against the many qualified scholars represented by the NASB, ESV, NET, CSB, AMP (also "physical body"), and NIV. Claiming they have all done a poor job is just a bit of a problem...

 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

Amen!

Shalom, Josheb.

You weren't reading along. The "corner stone" is not some block at the bottom in the corner of a foundation; it's the PINNACLE STONE! It's the LAST STONE put in place! And, that didn't happen until the mountains were thrust upward from the weight of the water pushing down in the valleys, causing them to sink, forcing the mountains to go higher, like a see-saw! That's what the Scriptures SAY had happened in the time of the Flood!

[Charlie744]

On 12/4/2020 at 1:48 PM, rhomphaeam said:

Well Charlie, that diplomatic aberration seems to have left you. Or perhaps the Emperor lost his clothes.  

I hope ALL of you folks do not mind but this has been bothering me since romphaeam responded (anove) to my attempt to make a joke using a post from Alive....

I just want to make it crystal clear that I was ONLY attempting to make lite of a part of our discussions about “the Soul....” and how it moved to a couple of brief comments on whether Lazarus had or had not decayed during the 4 days in the ground.

If my response was not clear that I was making (attempting) to make a joke out of this, AND / OR it offended ANYONE, please accept my sincere apology!!!

It was the farthest thing from my mind..

Thanks, Charlie 

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, rhomphaeam said:

Just to confirm that I certainly wasn't offended by your comment. In fact I was impressed by the original comment that had me exclaim that you should have been a diplomat. So if you have been worried by this comment you have highlighted now then I apologise. There seems no need for you to have been worried because I feel sure that no one was seeking to criticise of infer any wrong doing. 

Thank you very much for your prompt and well received response. This will certainly remove any further thoughts that my response may have been offensive (especially Alive since I happened to use his post to respond to).

Anyway, thank you again and God Bless always, Charlie 

 

[Charlie744]

13 minutes ago, rhomphaeam said:

Thanks for that, Charlie. My original comment about exclaiming that you should have been a diplomat was made because when I read your somewhat detailed expression of appreciation to be sitting in a class with PhD's and the like I chuckled. I did wonder if you were genuinely being somewhat ironic in a reasonable way. But I have to say that it would appear that you may have been rather serious. And that would explain your reply to myself about thinking diplomats were less that truthful as it were. Well they are less than truth at times and no mistake. In like manner in my experience sitting in a class room with 15 PhD types is a sheer nightmare. So you made me think of the British stiff upper lip kind of response and the diplomat came to mind. Then when you yourself exclaimed that you "got it" and proceeded to tell us that you just mentioned Lazarus and didn't expect it to descend into a full blown discourse (my emphasise) I literally laughed out loud to myself. So rest assured my response then was quiet literally a jest and not a genuine attempt to demean you at all. So glad that you are able to settle your mind. Always In Christ, Robert Chisholm.

Thank you !!!! That was certainly a terrific response and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it... I think I will read it another 10 times or so before the end of this evening. 

Since I came onboard this forum I have indeed learned so much from so many talented and knowledgeable folks. It is so apparent that many have spent so much of their lives studying and improving their relationship with God.... something that has been so foreign to me.

This forum has given me the opportunity to communicate with many different individuals from different parts of the globe and where they clearly would be considered an intellectual, an academic, a theologian, etc. -  I was so surprised at the level of talent here... and I get to see into their mind and see some of their relationship with God. It is quite remarkable to witness the thinking process of many of the highly successful and educated folks within this forum... 

It took me so many years before I realized that God must be my priority and now I get to sit in the same classroom as all of these very knowledgeable folks who have been at this for years! God is Good! And once again, thank you for your comments and don’t keep them for yourself... keep sharing please! Charlie 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, everyone.

I've posted this in another topic, but I think, based on the turn of the conversation, it bears repeating here:

Another intangible particular that should be included (in a list of "holy" words that have changed in meaning over the last 2,000 years) is the word "resurrection" itself! There are some who see this as a "spiritual" attitude instead of an actual, physical event. Others see it as happening individually and "spiritually" at death instead of generally and physically applied to a group of people when the Master Yeshua` the Messiah returns. Some even say that, in Heaven, we'll have "spiritual" bodies, sometimes shortened to "spirit" bodies!

(Can anyone see why I really dislike the terms "spiritual" and "spiritually?" The terms "spiritual" and "spiritually" are not only misused and misunderstood, but they are the catch-all words that people will use to mean ANYTHING that has to do with "churchy" things. Since people don't have a good definition for these words, they should be AVOIDED in preference for more descriptive words that may take more effort to determine what to say! We don't have a good vocabulary; so, we tend to use terms we've heard all our lives IN SPITE of not knowing what they mean or knowing how they should be used in NORMAL, COMMON conversation.

In my opinion, such terms are JUST AS BAD TO SAY as words that are considered SWEAR WORDS! Both show a HUGE lack of vocabulary and a LAZINESS in the ability to THINK!)

Let's bring this back to reality. The resurrection is not primarily an event; it's a PERSON:

John 11:21-27 (KJV)

21 Then said Martha unto Jesus,

"Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 22 But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee."

23 Jesus saith unto her, 

"Thy brother shall rise again."

24 Martha saith unto him,

"I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day." 

25 Jesus said unto her,

"I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth (Greek: ho pisteuoon , a present-tense, active-voice participle treated as a noun [like a gerund], a nominative, masculine, singular noun = "the truster") in me, though he were dead (Greek: kan apothanee = "and-even-if he-should-die-off"), yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in meshall never die (Greek: ou mee apothanee eis ta aioona = "not [positively] not [negatively] shall-die-off into the age"). Believest thou this?" 

27 She saith unto him, 

"Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world."

Yeshua`s words at the end were "pisteueis touto," which literally mean "Do-you-trust-[me] about-this?" That's why Martha's answer was not impersonal but was directed to Him:  "Yes, Sir. I trust you to be the Messiah, the Son of God, who should come into this world-system." The reason why she could come to that conclusion is because, (1) as a good Jewess, she knew the prophecies about the Messiah to be King - God's Choice for Israel's King, and (2) she recognized Him as the fulfillment of those prophecies!   

Notice, too, however, that she WAS ALSO familiar with the prophecies about a resurrection at the last day [of this age].  The words "yet shall he live" is the one word "zeesetai." It's a 3rd-person, singular verb in its future tense, indicative mood, and middle voice, which means it is partially reflexive. In other words, that one who shall live has the action performed upon him, but he is not the one responsible for the action.

Then, she got the chance to SEE the resurrection of her brother FIRST HAND!

John 11:38-44 (KJV)

38 Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39 Jesus said, 

"Take ye away the stone."

Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, 

"Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days."

40 Jesus saith unto her,

"Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?"

41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, 

"Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me."

43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, 

"Lazarus, come forth!" 

44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, 

"Loose him, and let him go!"

Notice, however, that in the resurrection of her brother, Eleazar ("Lazarus") was quite alive physically! He was a dead body and suddenly he was an air-breathing, living body, again! He was a LIVING SOUL, again!

There's an apparent contradiction in terms in 1 Corinthians 15, but really, there's no contradiction at all:

1 Corinthians 15:42-49 (KJV)

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The contradiction comes into play IF one defines "spiritual" as "non-physical," as some do. Some contrast the "natural" (physical) with the "spiritual" (non-physical), but then, what happens later when one reads:

1 Corinthians 15:51-54 (KJV)

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."

And, one shouldn't forget Yeshua`s words after His OWN Resurrection:

Luke 24:36-43 (KJV)

36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, 

"Peace be unto you."

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit (a ghost). 38 And he said unto them,

"Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts? 39 Behold (Check out) my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle (touch) me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have."

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. 41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them,

"Have ye here any meat?"

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb. 43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

So, He HAS "flesh and bones," a PHYSICAL body! And, we are told,

I John 3:2 (KJV)

2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

So, we, too, shall have "flesh and bones" in our resurrection! And, therein is the perceived "contradiction." We shall be physical, like the Master, in the resurrection; we won't be "non-physical!" The apparent "contradiction" here is found in the faulty DEFINITION of the word "spiritual!" "Spiritual" does NOT mean "non-physical!"

Within 1 Corinthians 15, the term "spiritual" (Greek: pneumatikos) is contrasted with the term "natural" (Greek: psuchikos). It's the difference between "air-breathing" (the adjective form psuchikos from psuchee, meaning 'an air-breathing creature') and "air-BLASTING (the adjective form pneumatikos from pneuma, meaning 'a WIND')!" THAT'S the contrast, not "physical vs. non-physical!"

Hope this helps any and all who read it.

I'll also add this: The Hebrew word for "spirit" is "ruwach," and the Greek word for "spirit" is "pneuma." BOTH words have the primary meaning of the "WIND!" It's not our personality or our intelligence or our emotions or anything that is commonly associated with the psychological make-up of an individual. It is our "BREATH!" It's IMPERSONAL! It's only the movement of air, and some call it "immaterial?" God gave Adam a "PUFF" of living things, same as He did for OTHER living things, like mammals, reptiles, and birds! People think there's something more to the word, but there isn't. What makes people different than animals is that we were created in God's image. Period. People breathe air; animals breathe air. People are air-breathers; animals are air-breathers.

[DeighAnn]

21 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Am I now to be told that "fled and abated" are the same? 

Jeez, that is almost the same as "return and coming" NOT being the same.  

 

 

22 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, DeighAnn.

It is if you understand the Hebrew words for "corner stone":

The Hebrew is "even pinnaataah," meaning "stone of-[the]-pinnacle." It's not some BOTTOM stone laid somewhere; it's the PEAK stone last laid, and today, we call that "Mount Everest." There's even a passage of Scripture that describes the mountain up-thrusting that occurred after the Flood:

Psalm 104:1-9 (KJV)

1 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, thou art very great; thou art clothed with honour and majesty.
2 Who coverest thyself with light as with a garment: who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain:
3 Who layeth the beams of his chambers in the waters: who maketh the clouds his chariot: who walketh upon the wings of the wind:
4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
5 Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever.
6 Thou coveredst it with the deep as with a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.
7 At thy rebuke they fled; at the voice of thy thunder they hasted away.
8 They go up by the mountains; they go down by the valleys unto the place which thou hast founded for them.
9 Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

Here's verse 8 in a couple of other translations:

Psalm 104:7-9 (NLT)

7 At your command, the water fled;
at the sound of your thunder, it hurried away.
8 Mountains rose and valleys sank
to the levels you decreed.
9 Then you set a firm boundary for the seas,
so they would never again cover the earth.

Psalm 104:6-9 (NASB)

     6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment;
            The waters were standing above the mountains.

      7 At Your rebuke they fled,
            At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away.

      8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down
            To the place which You established for them.

      9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over,
            So that they will not return to cover the earth.

This is another passage that is CLEARLY about the Flood of Noach's day and God's rebuilding process after the Flood!

As far as my credentials, I've never made much ado about them, but I was a straight-A student and valedictorian at my high school during my senior year at a newly formed Christian high school back at the bicentennial. I took Bible science, which was based upon Scientific Creationism, the textbook from the Institute of Creation Research, and my project that year was to investigate 150 Scripture passages (far more than a mere 150 verses) and create a Creation/Flood Model. I took the task quite seriously and worked every last verse of the 150 Scripture passages into that model.

NONE of these verses have taken me by surprise; I've encountered them all in my studies.

I've had consultations with my science teacher (who later became our pastor), a brilliant man who understands the depths of Scripture, and with Evangelist J. Herbert Pugmire, a Creationist, archaeologist, and published author.

One of the FIRST things I had to learn is that the Bible is NOT subjective; it's OBJECTIVE! It's not up to the reader what a passage meant; it's up to the author and the AUTHOR behind the author (His prophet) what the Scripture passage meant! That is, it's not about "he said, she said"; it's about what GOD said and NOTHING LESS!

Well, this is a matter of THEOLOGY, not of biblical hermeneutics. But, I'll deal with this below when you speak of Genesis 1:1 and 2:

Well, I can appreciate your "getting into the letter," so to speak, but Scriptural passages from the TANAKH (the "Old Testament") are in the Hebrew language, not the Greek. Just the same, the Greek can be valuable, too, as the Greek of the B'rit haChadashah (the "New Testament") quotes from the TANAKH.

Themelios, themelioi in the plural, are Greek terms for "foundation(s)" or "footing(s)," and yes, the B'rit haChadashah says little about them referring to the world or the earth. However, that's why the initial passage is from Iyov ("Job"). One should be first investigating the Hebrew word for "foundation," which is "adown," pronounced "ah-doan'."

This second Greek word you insert here as a source for the translation of "foundation" means "a throwing-down" or "a setting-down." It often means an "establishing."

And, this verb, too, is a Greek word meaning "I throw down." Again, however, the word can be used to mean "I set down."

Here, I must draw the line. THIS is TOTALLY WRONG and IRRESPONSIBLE treatment of God's Word!

Genesis 1:1 did NOT come before Genesis 1:2! That is a FAR-TOO-COMMON ERROR that some English-speaking person who has absolutely NO CLUE how Hebrew works or how Jewish thinking and literature are approached! Instead, they've taken a few verses in Genesis 1 and a few verses in Jeremiah 4 and have built a Theology that should NEVER have been started!!!

Jewish literature would frequently begin a subject with the main points and THEN delve into the details! It's like stating a summary of what is to follow FIRST and THEN go into the details of that summary.

Such is the case in Genesis 1:1. 

B'reeshiyt 1:1

1 B'reeshiyt baaraa' Elohiym et hashaamayim v'et haa'aarets:

1 B'reeshiyt = 1 In-[the]-beginning
baaraa' = created
Elohiym = God
et = (next word is a direct object)
hashaamayim = the-skies (dual-plural)
v'et = and-(next word is a direct object)
haa'aarets: = the-land/earth:

This is a SUMMARY of what is to follow! Verses 7 and 8 was when God actually formed the firmament and named it "skies," and verses 9 and 10 was when God actually formed and named the dry ground "the land/earth." The verses after that bring even more order and inhabitants to the environments He created.

There's no "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2. In verse 2, God merely begins making order FOR THE FIRST TIME out of the chaos.

And, your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:3-13 is COMPLETELY FORGETTING the Flood of Noach's day! And, I THINK, that is because so few of your teachers really put any importance on a MAJOR CATACLYSMIC EVENT!

So, you're trying to "read into" 2 Peter 3 your theological theory about a "gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, and you DOWNPLAY the actual Flood!

Again, this is NOT TRUE. Learn some Hebrew, please.

Your problem in interpretation here is the understanding of the word, "haaytaah," which is a simple word of being. It doesn't mean "became"; it means "was." The chaos was ALREADY THERE! It didn't "COME INTO BEING!" Again, take a course in Biblical Hebrew! DON'T PAINT YOURSELF INTO A CORNER!

 JUST CAUSE YOU SAY IT DOESN'T MAKE IT TRUTH.  JUST CAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT DOESN'T MAKE IT NOT TRUTH.  AND YES, SAME HERE.  



I take what is written
and don't make it "mean" or "can mean" or "be taken" in another way FOR any purpose. 
I believe that God created language and so USES EXACTLY the words He wants.  If he wanted them to MEAN something else those words would have been used.  I don't believe there are any mistakes.  So when GOD SAYS SPECIFICALLY I DIDN'T CREATE IT A CERTAIN WAY and we see it WRITTEN STATING IT IS "WAS" THAT WAY AT ONE TIME, I SIMPLY believe that to be the truth.  I believe that is the Spirit of it.  I don't think God is out to "trick" us.  


YOUR understanding 2 Pet 2  Noahs Flood is followed by 2 Pet 3,  Noahs Flood???  

MY understanding 2 Pet 2 is Noahs Flood (get that out of the way) and 2 Pet 3 is something else in which THE PURE MIND MUST BE STIRRED  
(PURE)

2 Peter 3:1 This second epistle, beloved, I now write unto you; in both which I stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance:

Remember, Noahs flood was just mentioned along with other events.  It was not separated by anything as to be OUTSTANDING or standing out in anyway as distinctly different in "remembrance" of. 



BUT following the mention of the flood and Sodom etc, PURE MINDS ARE BEING CALLED UPON.   

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the Holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of His coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
Not Noahs flood

2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

NOAHS FLOOD IS NOT THE BEGINNING OF CREATION, it took place in THIS AGE.  THE BLOOD LINE OF CHRIST BEGINS WITH ADAM AND EVE AND CONTINUES before during and PAST NOAH.  THE FLOOD WAS AN EVENT THAT DIDN'T CHANGE THE "age" or the TIMELINE OR THE EXISTENCE of man upon the earth.  The earth did not perish at that time.  There were men and woman and animals and a sun and a moon and EVEN PLANTS that made it.  It wasn't in any way "sudden" or after a war.  

WHY would He be so specific to say in  Isaiah 45:18

FOR THUS SAITH THE LORD that created the heavens;
God Himself that formed the earth and made it; He hath established it, He created it NOT IN VAIN , He formed it to be inhabited: I am the LORD; and there is none else.

Did He formed it WITHOUT FORM?  did He formed it VOID?  Or not? 


NASB Lexicon
NASB ©    Hebrew    Strong's    Origin
The earth    וְהָאָ֗רֶץ
(ve·ha·'a·retz)    776: earth, land    a prim. root
was formless    תֹ֙הוּ֙
(to·hu)    8414: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness    from an unused word
and void,    וָבֹ֔הוּ
(va·vo·hu,)    922: emptiness    from an unused word
and darkness    וְחֹ֖שֶׁךְ
(ve·cho·shech)    2822: darkness, obscurity    from chashak
was over    עַל־
(al-)    5921: upon, above, over    from alah
the surface    פְּנֵ֣י
(pe·nei)    6440: face, faces    from panah
of the deep,    תְהֹ֑ום
(te·ho·vm;)    8415: deep, sea, abyss    from an unused word
and the Spirit    וְר֣וּחַ
(ve·ru·ach)    7307: breath, wind, spirit    from an unused word
of God    אֱלֹהִ֔ים
(e·lo·him,)    430: God, god    pl. of eloah
was moving    מְרַחֶ֖פֶת
(me·ra·che·fet)    7363b: to hover    a prim. root
over    עַל־
(al-)    5921: upon, above, over    from alah
the surface    פְּנֵ֥י
(pe·nei)    6440: face, faces    from panah
of the waters.    הַמָּֽיִם׃
(ham·ma·yim.)    4325: waters, water    a prim. root




NASB ©    Hebrew    Strong's    Origin
For thus    כֹ֣ה
(choh)    3541: thus, here    a prim. adverb
says    אָֽמַר־
(a·mar-)    559: to utter, say    a prim. root
the LORD,    יְ֠הוָה
(Yah·weh)    3068: the proper name of the God of Israel    from havah
who created    בֹּורֵ֨א
(bo·v·re)    1254a: to shape, create    a prim. root
the heavens    הַשָּׁמַ֜יִם
(ha·sha·ma·yim)    8064: heaven, sky    from an unused word
(He is the God    הָאֱלֹהִ֗ים
(ha·'e·lo·him)    430: God, god    pl. of eloah
who formed    יֹצֵ֨ר
(yo·tzer)    3335: to form, fashion    a prim. root
the earth    הָאָ֤רֶץ
(ha·'a·retz)    776: earth, land    a prim. root
and made    וְעֹשָׂהּ֙
(ve·'o·sah)    6213a: do, make    a prim. root
it, He established    כֹֽונְנָ֔הּ
(cho·vn·nah,)    3559: to be firm    a prim. root
it [and] did not create    בְרָאָ֖הּ
(ve·ra·'ah)    1254a: to shape, create    a prim. root
it a waste place,    תֹ֥הוּ
(to·hu)    8414: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness    from an unused word
[but] formed    יְצָרָ֑הּ
(ye·tza·rah;)    3335: to form, fashion    a prim. root
it to be inhabited),    לָשֶׁ֣בֶת
(la·she·vet)    3427: to sit, remain, dwell    a prim. root
"I am the LORD,    יְהוָ֖ה
(Yah·weh)    3068: the proper name of the God of Israel    from havah
and there is none    וְאֵ֥ין
(ve·'ein)    369: nothing, nought    a prim. root
else.    עֹֽוד׃
(o·vd.)    5750: a going around, continuance, still, yet, again, beside    from ud


The earth    וְהָאָ֗רֶץ 
was formless    תֹ֙הוּ֙
(to·hu)    
8414: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness    from an unused word
and void,    וָבֹ֔הוּ
(va·vo·hu,)    
922: emptiness    from an unused word

it [and] did not create    בְרָאָ֖הּ
(ve·ra·'ah)    1254a: to shape, create    a prim. root
it a waste place,    תֹ֥הוּ
(to·hu)    
8414: formlessness, confusion, unreality, emptiness    from an unused word

WAS FORMLESS 
WAS NOT CREATED THAT WAY,
had nothing to do with Noahs flood.    


THOSE AREN'T MY WORDS OR MY INTERPRETATIONS

THESE ARE WORDS SPOKEN about 

"IN THE BEGINNING".  GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS.  


 

2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

Once again, I am not saying it, GOD IS.  GOD is USING THE WORD PERISHED. 

DO YOU TAKE THAT TO MEAN "PERISHED" as it is simply written or

OR DOES  "PERISHED" NOT REALLY MEAN "PERISHED"
BUT actually means "what it can also mean"?

YOU wouldn't believe the number of people or the number of times those people SAY that GOD
"didn't use the correct word for His correct meaning" but used words for "what they also meant" instead of those "actual other words with the other also meant meaning". 


Returning and coming don't mean the same thing. 
Apostasy is not a falling away from faith but a "departure of the church". 
Pretty sure about to add "perished" to the list.  

 

 

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
THE HEAVENS DIDN'T GO BLACK FOR NOAHS FLOOD.  THE sun continued to exist as did the stars exactly as they do today  

IF IT IS TALKING ABOUT THE FLOOD OF NOAHS TIME THEN PERISHED WOULD NOT WORK AS NOAH AND HIS WIFE AND THE KIDS AND THE ANIMALS AND THE BRANCHES OF TREES DIDN'T "PERISH" DID THEY????



DOES THE WORD OF GOD SPEAK OF A TIME WHEN EVERYTHING PERISHED?  
AS IN NO MAN, NO ANIMAL, NO LIGHT, NO LIFE, ETC AND

THE EARTH

BECOMING NULL AND VOID??? 

Jeremiah 4:20 Destruction upon destruction is cried; for the whole land is spoiled: suddenly are my tents spoiled, and my curtains in a moment.
 THE FLOOD OF NOAHS TIME NOT "A SUDDEN EVENT"?

Jeremiah 4:21 How long shall I see the standard, and hear the sound of the trumpet?
WHERE IS THIS SPOKEN OF AT ANY TIME DURING NOAHS?

Jeremiah 4:22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.



SO WE HAVE DESTRUCTION UPON DESTRUCTION, THE WHOLE LAND BEING SPOILED

AND "BEHOLD"  WHAT????

ANY IDEA WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THERE IS 'NO LIGHT' FROM THE HEAVENS?  GO ASK SOME OF THOSE SCIENTISTS

Jeremiah 4:23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

Jeremiah 4:24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

Jeremiah 4:25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

 

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Jeremiah 4:27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

Jeremiah 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, AND THE HEAVENS ABOVE BE BLACK because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.


When did Satan go from the full pattern to the Serpent in the garden?

Take those verses you posted and see where if they fit. 
Not by what we "believe" but by WHAT IS WRITTEN.  

WAS GOD JUST living forever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.....then 14000 years ago created the heavens and the earth and we get anywhere from no day to 120 years to determine our eternal existence and that is just, well.....

 WHERE did the serpent come from?  Why does God use the words pre ordained, fore knew, predestined?  Is He trying to fool us?    The first shall be last and the last shall be first, FIRST AND LAST FROM WHEN? 


AND WHEN DID THIS TAKE PLACE?

Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

[Frits]

On 12/3/2020 at 5:43 AM, DeighAnn said:

Thus, if there's no "Heaven" and we're anticipating the "New Jerusalem," and if there's no separate entity called a "soul," which actually means "an air-breathing creature," then one can see how VERY IMPORTANT the Resurrection of our bodies is! Some call this "soul sleep," but I call it something closer to reality; I call it "soul annihilation!" When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST! From that point on until the Resurrection, one who has died ONLY exists in the MIND OF GOD!

@Retrobyter

Why "Thus, if there's no "Heaven"? There is heaven, created by God before he created the earth. These are clear facts. So the heaven existed before the first people were on earth. The heaven exists in this very moment, as the place for our Lord Jesus Christ to be and all the people beleve him to be God, being part of his church his body. (Ef.1:23) And the heaven will still be there in the world to come, when death and hell were cast into the lake of fire and our God Jesus Christ has wiped away all tears from his people eyes. (Rev.21:3)
Truly called the new heaven!

Then you write: "Some call this "soul sleep," but I call it something closer to reality; I call it "soul annihilation!" When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST! From that point on until the Resurrection, one who has died ONLY exists in the MIND OF GOD!
"
Something far away from the truth is called a lie; "something closer to reality", is still a lie!
I am sorry but your line, "When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST!", is one big lie. 
Even English is not my language, in my KJ Bible I can find the Lord Jesus Christ saying:
'Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death'. (John 8:51)
Same Gospel:
'I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.' (John 11:25)

Jesus Christ give us eternal life, at the very moment we accept him to be our Savior and God. Seizing the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospel gives us eternal life, starting that day he awakens our soul.
'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.' (John 5:25)
The apostle Paul knew this very well preaching:
'Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.' (Ef.5:14)

Even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who were on earth centuries ago are now alive. For, 'God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.' (Matt.22:32)
We don't lose that life when our body dies, we keep it and continue it in the heavenly body we already(!) have. (2Cor.5:1)
In that body - just like the Lord Jesus did - we in future will be able to appear on earth, when He comes accompanied by his followers. (1Thess.4:16)

My thoughts about you
my dear Retrobyter, is that in the past someone whom you looked up to spoke
about these themes, not knowing that he sympathized with watchtower community. Is that correct?

God bless you.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Frits

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Frits said:

@Retrobyter

Why "Thus, if there's no "Heaven"? There is heaven, created by God before he created the earth. These are clear facts. So the heaven existed before the first people were on earth.

Shalom, Frits.

Yes, God created the "heavens" on Day 2, one day prior to creating the "earth" on Day 3. And, yes, both were created and NAMED before Day 6, when He created the Man (Adam) and the woman (who was later named "Chavah").

Let's look at the proof in Genesis 1 (KJV) and in the Hebrew:

Genesis 1:1-13 (KJV)

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  (Hebrew: B-reeshiyt bara' Elohiym et hashaamayim v'et haa'aarets. = "In-[the]-beginning created God (the next word is the Direct Object) the-skies (in dual-plural) and-(the next word is the Direct Object) the-land/earth.)

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said,

"Let there be light":

and there was light. 4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5 And God called the light "Day," and the darkness he called "Night." And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said,

"Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters."

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8 And God called the firmament "Heaven" (Hebrew: Shaamaayim = "Skies" (in dual-plural)). And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said,

"Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear":

and it was so. 10 And God called the dry land "Earth" (Hebrew: erets = "land/earth"); and the gathering together of the waters called he "Seas": and God saw that it was good. 11 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth":

and it was so. 12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

...

Genesis 1:24-31 (KJV)

24 And God said,

"Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind":

and it was so. 25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26 And God said,

"Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them,

"Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."

29 And God said,

"Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat":

and it was so. 31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

See, the hei- prefix is the definite article in Hebrew. So, "shaamaayim" is "skies," but "hashaamayim" is "the-skies." Vowel pointing was introduced in the 14th Century A.D., but the vowel sounds change with inflection and with part of speech, as well as when prefixes or suffixes are added. THE CONSONANTS are what defines the word! This is why every letter in the Hebrew alefbet ("alphabet") is a CONSONANT!

So, when one adds the definite article to "erets," one gets "haa'aarets." "Erets" is "Land/Earth," but "haa'aarets" is "the-Land/Earth."

13 hours ago, Frits said:

The heaven exists in this very moment, as the place for our Lord Jesus Christ to be and all the people beleve him to be God, being part of his church his body. (Ef.1:23)

Nope. Here's what Paul said to the Ephesians:

Ephesians 1:15-23 (KJV)

15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, 16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; 17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: 18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, 19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, 20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, 21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: 22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

(After all, technically, it's ONE HUGE sentence in Greek!)

13 hours ago, Frits said:

And the heaven will still be there in the world to come, when death and hell were cast into the lake of fire and our God Jesus Christ has wiped away all tears from his people eyes. (Rev.21:3)
Truly called the new heaven!

Then you write: "Some call this "soul sleep," but I call it something closer to reality; I call it "soul annihilation!" When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST! From that point on until the Resurrection, one who has died ONLY exists in the MIND OF GOD!
"
Something far away from the truth is called a lie; "something closer to reality", is still a lie!
I am sorry but your line, "When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST!", is one big lie. 
Even English is not my language, in my KJ Bible I can find the Lord Jesus Christ saying:
'Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death'. (John 8:51)
Same Gospel:
'I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live.' (John 11:25)

Jesus Christ give us eternal life, at the very moment we accept him to be our Savior and God. Seizing the words of Jesus Christ in the Gospel gives us eternal life, starting that day he awakens our soul.
'Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.' (John 5:25)
The apostle Paul knew this very well preaching:
'Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.' (Ef.5:14)

Even Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, who were on earth centuries ago are now alive. For, 'God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.' (Matt.22:32)
We don't lose that life when our body dies, we keep it and continue it in the heavenly body we already(!) have. (2Cor.5:1)
In that body - just like the Lord Jesus did - we in future will be able to appear on earth, when He comes accompanied by his followers. (1Thess.4:16)

My thoughts about you
my dear Retrobyter, is that in the past someone whom you looked up to spoke
about these themes, not knowing that he sympathized with watchtower community. Is that correct?

God bless you.

Nah, I come by all of this by my own study with guidance from the Ruach HaQodesh Elohiym (the Holy Spirit of God). I do, however, find it fun to talk to the "Watchtower Community," as you call it. They know some things, but they neglect other truths. Baptists also know a DIFFERENT set of things, but they also neglect DIFFERENT other truths.

[DeighAnn]

 

15 hours ago, Frits said:

  On 12/2/2020 at 9:43 PM, DeighAnn said:

Thus, if there's no "Heaven" and we're anticipating the "New Jerusalem," and if there's no separate entity called a "soul," which actually means "an air-breathing creature," then one can see how VERY IMPORTANT the Resurrection of our bodies is! Some call this "soul sleep," but I call it something closer to reality; I call it "soul annihilation!" When we die, the "soul" - the "air-breathing creature" - CEASES TO EXIST! From that point on until the Resurrection, one who has died ONLY exists in the MIND OF GOD!

THESE ARE NOT MY WORDS.  I DON'T KNOW HOW YOU GOT MY NAME ATTACHED TO THIS POSTING BUT PLEASE FIGURE OUT HOW NOT TO DO IT AGAIN.  DEIGHANN DID NOT SAY THESE THINGS, THESE THINGS WERE SAID IN RESPONSE TO ME IF ANYTHING