David1701 Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Your closest friendnt said: I cannot say anything against as this applies within a church setting. If that is what the church asks from those who want to be members, which church has the right to impose their perspective on their membership, to screen them out for membership eligibility. But how about if we look at the issues at hand objectively keeping the local church rules on check and discuss the issues objectively, if you can do that, and that what we should do in discussion groups and what we should not do is imposing to others our sets of beliefs, instant of seeking to establish our selves in some clarify by thorough examination and not by interpretation. This is your departure from the core basic Gospel. The invitation to the Gospel is: believe in Jesus Christ who died for the forgiveness of our sins. The above strongly suggests the following: do you want your sins forgiven in the name of Jesus Christ, then you have to believe in him. At that moment let no one teach you to act the way the Israelites were acting before the sacrifice of their yearly atonement. Why they acted that way is obvious, their last years atonement it was about to finish in a day and they wanted to be included in the next years atonement. It's like from the old year to the new, the exchange happens instantaneously. They did not want to find them selves out of the atonement not even one second as those were the instructions in the Law to beat up themselves and cry for mercy. We are in Jesus Christ all the time because we believe, we rejoice in the Lord always. I am delighted to read your post, it is music to my ears and a burned offering in my heart. I feel the same way the Lord felt when he accepted Abel's burned offspring. Keep your crusade against speculative gaping alive. What are you talking about? No-one mentioned "church membership" or "rules". What do you do with all the NT passages where sinners are told to repent? God commands all men everywhere to repent, not merely accept the truth about Jesus Christ. What is "speculative gaping", when it's at home? Edited January 9, 2021 by David1701 typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Your closest friendnt Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 18 Topic Count: 7 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 7,878 Content Per Day: 2.41 Reputation: 2,769 Days Won: 3 Joined: 06/05/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, David1701 said: What are you talking about? No-one mentioned "church membership" or "rules". Why do you do with all the NT passages where sinners are told to repent? God commands all men everywhere to repent, not merely accept the truth about Jesus Christ. What is "speculative gaping", when it's at home? The post it was not about church membership, it was about church membership rules. Which are the same in principle as personal beliefs. But did you read the rest of the post, if you did, do you have something to say because in that post I have posted a challenge to your post as quoted. Do you have something to say to the issues raised, do you not agree? Then post your disagreement and set out your points for discussion... You posted: "Why do you do with all the NT passages where sinners are told to repent? "God commands all men everywhere to repent, not merely accept the truth about Jesus Christ ". Please post scripture reference that support your point and how you consider those who examine your point. From reading your comment: "God commands all men everywhere to repent, not merely accept the truth about Jesus Christ", and then "Why do you do with all the NT passages where sinners are told to repent?" These your statements, you have failed to do one of the following, whether to post the definitions of the key words in your above statements or to post scriptures that define the key words in your statements. I have taken the position that your comments suggest the following, that God has given us the instruction to tell people not to believe if they are not willing to repent and stay with their repentance or that Jesus Christ does not accepts your faith in him unless it comes with repentance. Please clarify for a discussion on those key issues. Edited January 9, 2021 by Your closest friendnt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2021 3 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said: The post it was not about church membership, it was about church membership rules. Which are the same in principle as personal beliefs. But did you read the rest of the post, if you did, do you have something to say because in that post I have posted a challenge to your post as quoted. Do you have something to say to the issues raised, do you not agree? Then post your disagreement and set out your points for discussion... You posted: "Why do you do with all the NT passages where sinners are told to repent? "God commands all men everywhere to repent, not merely accept the truth about Jesus Christ ". Please post scripture reference that support your point and how you consider those who examine your point. From reading your comment: "God commands all men everywhere to repent, not merely accept the truth about Jesus Christ", and then "Why do you do with all the NT passages where sinners are told to repent?" These your statements, you have failed to do one of the following, whether to post the definitions of the key words in your above statements or to post scriptures that define the key words in your statements. I have taken the position suggesting God has given us the instruction to tell people not to believe if they are not willing to repent and stay with their repentance or that Jesus Christ does not accepts your faith in him unless it comes with repentance. Please clarify for a discussion on those key issues. <sigh> Never mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.29 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Josheb said: Then you have illustrated my point. Only those who believe in God repent to the God in Whom they believe. There are no examples in scripture of non-believers repenting of anything and it is illogical to think otherwise because no one can repent of sins they don't believe occur to a god they don't believe exists. There are no good men in hell. Jesus told us that no one is good except our Father in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.29 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Josheb said: Why do you have to believe that? As I have pointed out several times now, Matthew 4:17 was spoken to a covenant people who already believed in the God of creation. It was not spoken to any other group. Yes, it can be made to apply to all people but it is not the basis for a "I have to believe...." statement. God could want some not to repent. He implied as much when he said, Isaiah 6:10 "Render the hearts of this people insensitive, their ears dull, and their eyes dim, otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and return and be healed." Did you get that? God rendered their hearts insensitive, otherwise they might see, hear, and understand and be healed. This prophesy is repeated about a half-dozen times in the NT. Jesus himself reported the Isaiah prophesy came true in his day as he was teaching AND he reported the understanding of what he was teaching was given to the disciples where it was not given to others. Matthew 13:10-16 KJV "And the disciples came, and said unto him, 'Why speakest thou unto them in parables? ' He answered and said unto them, 'Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear." Matthew 13:10-16 ESV "Then the disciples came and said to him, 'Why do you speak to them in parables?' And he answered them, 'To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says: 'You will indeed hear but never understand, and you will indeed see but never perceive.' For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear." So why must you believe God wants everyone to experience the same thing? Is God not also glorified when He metes out the just recompense for sin? Is He not just as glorified when He does that as when He saves? Mark 4:10-12 "As soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God, but those who are outside get everything in parables, so that while seeing, they may see and not perceive, and while hearing they may hear and not understand, otherwise they might return and be forgiven." Why do I HAVE to believe that? Because it's in the Bible (Matthew 4:17), and when I did as Jesus said, my life was transformed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.29 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 hour ago, David1701 said: How did God lead you to repent? Hardly anything you post is scripturally accurate, which is frustrating. Where does the Bible say that peace of mind is the prize for repenting? Hardly anything I post is scripturally accurate? All I'm saying is, "Repent," the exact thing Jesus told us to do (Matthew 4:17). I'm just telling you what happened to me after I repented. Jesus said heaven is the reward (again, Matthew 4:17). I know you won't believe me if I say heaven is the reward, so I put it differently: Peace of mind. What good is heaven if we don't have peace of mind? As for how God led me to repent, I was unhappy, and he convinced me if I repented, I would be happy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.29 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted January 9, 2021 47 minutes ago, Josheb said: That is not true. What you are telling us is God wants all people to have the same experience of repentance. What you're telling is is a single verse, Matthew 4:17 defines all there is to say about God's desire for repentance. Whatever else can be said about either God's desire or repentance must comply with that one verse. What you're telling us is you measure God's word by your personal experience and not the other way around. What you're telling us is you refuse to consider other scriptures that directly bear on Mt. 4:17, or those that bear indirectly upon it. You may intend to tell us your story, and your view of Mt. 4:17 but what is actually happening is much larger than that. Jesus said repent. Why don't people just do it? (And you know as well as I do, if we don't repent of our sin, then our repentance isn't really repentance.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnthebaptist Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Non-Conformist Theology Followers: 6 Topic Count: 118 Topics Per Day: 0.06 Content Count: 4,361 Content Per Day: 2.29 Reputation: 2,109 Days Won: 0 Joined: 02/25/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 02/03/1953 Share Posted January 9, 2021 44 minutes ago, Josheb said: And we are overjoyed God saw fit to work in your life that way and you have seen fit to continue in that vein with His guidance and obedience to His word. However, you've already acknowledge a belief in God preceded the repentance. You have thereby confirmed what I posted: only those who believe in God repent. I say there's no examples of non-believers repenting. How easy would it be for any poster to prove me wrong if such a precedent in scripture existed? You know there are some here salivating over the opportunity to do so. Do you see it happening? No, and there's a reason for that. No one is good so there are no good men in hell. While God wants all men everywhere to repent there are clearly times when He acts in ways to prevent that which He supposedly wants and desires. These verses cannot be pitted against one another. I suspect you are right: That only people who believe in God repent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enoob57 Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 35 Topic Count: 100 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 41,377 Content Per Day: 8.00 Reputation: 21,555 Days Won: 76 Joined: 03/13/2010 Status: Offline Birthday: 07/27/1957 Share Posted January 9, 2021 I think Judas shows a worldly form of repentance... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David1701 Posted January 9, 2021 Group: Royal Member Followers: 8 Topic Count: 15 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 5,731 Content Per Day: 3.52 Reputation: 3,524 Days Won: 12 Joined: 11/27/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted January 9, 2021 2 hours ago, johnthebaptist said: Hardly anything I post is scripturally accurate? All I'm saying is, "Repent," the exact thing Jesus told us to do (Matthew 4:17). I'm just telling you what happened to me after I repented. Jesus said heaven is the reward (again, Matthew 4:17). I know you won't believe me if I say heaven is the reward, so I put it differently: Peace of mind. What good is heaven if we don't have peace of mind? As for how God led me to repent, I was unhappy, and he convinced me if I repented, I would be happy. It is godly sorrow (i.e. for sinning against God) that leads to repentance, not a desire to be happy. This is just another example of how what you post differs from Scripture. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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