Daniel 2, 7 and 8 - Identifying the 3 actors

[douggg]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

So, if the 6 things were not fulfilled in the first 69 weeks of Daniel and they don’t belong or have a meaning or purpose in the end times, they must belong and have meaning in the last 7 years! 

Palms Sunday - John 12:12-15 Jesus arrived in Jerusalem as the messiah.

Good Friday - Jesus was crucified

Easter Sunday - Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.

The 69 weeks completed.

_______________________________________________

The 70th week still future, to be fulfilled in the parable of the fig tree generation. i.e. soon.

Jesus returns on the last day of the 70th week to seal up prophecy and the vision of the little horn>Antichrist>beast person.      The vision and prophecy of that person and the 2300 days associated with  in Daniel 9:24 are part of the six things.     Which includes Daniel 8:25.

The Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of Salvation in the middle part of that 7 years, and will say "blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord" the day that Jesus returns.

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by douggg

[Charlie744]

4 minutes ago, douggg said:

Psalm Sunday - John 12:12-15 Jesus arrived in Jerusalem as the messiah.

Good Friday - Jesus was crucified

Easter Sunday - Jesus rose from the dead on the third day.

The 69 weeks completed.

_______________________________________________

The 70th week still future, to be fulfilled in the parable of the fig tree generation. i.e. soon.

Jesus returns on the last day of the 70th week to seal up prophecy and the vision of the little horn/Antichrist/beast person.      The vision and prophecy of that person and the 2300 days associated with  in Daniel 9:24 are part of the six things.     Which includes Daniel 8:25.

The Jews will turn to Jesus and the gospel of Salvation in the middle part of that 7 years, and will say "blessed is he who comes in the name of Lord" the day that Jesus returns.

 

I guess we are both locked into our own interpretation. But thanks for the discussion, Charlie 

[douggg]

Just now, Charlie744 said:

I guess we are both locked into our own interpretation. But thanks for the discussion, Charlie 

  probably so.  

 

If I am still around at the time, when the little horn>Antichrist>beast person comes to power among the ten leaders of the EU, then I will identify him as such.     You might change your mind then.

btw, as a convention I came up with,   I refer to the person as the little horn>Antichrist>beast  (with the arrows) and not little horn/Antichrist/beast (with slashes) is because the arrows denote a mini-timeline.

 

The person starts as the little horn - leader of the EU

Then, following Gog/Magog, becomes the king of Israel, coming in his own name, the Antichrist.

Then after committing the transgression desolation (ending his stint as the king of Israel), he becomes the beast - dictator of the EU.

 

 

[WilliamL]

On 1/17/2021 at 1:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

AE is nothing more than a thug, a wannabe king who happens to come on the scene after a truly great king, Alexander passed on. He had nothing to add to Greece or the coming Roman Empire. He and others like Ptolemy were attempting to gain power over others after Alexander- between the last two kingdoms. He certainly mistreated the Jews and others and he was from one of the 4 territories but he amounted to a relatively unimportant military figure.

Antiochus Epiphanes has more written about him than any other post-Babylonian historical king in the Book of Daniel. He was the transition figure between the Greek and Roman Empires, having himself spent 14 years in Rome. And he was the antetype of the King of the North/Son of Perdition of Dan. 11:40-45. Hardly unimportant either militarily or prophetically.

On 1/17/2021 at 1:26 PM, Charlie744 said:

The 4th kingdom in 7 is clearly pagan Rome and out FROM it will ARISE the 10 horns and then the little horn. Then in Daniel 8 the symbols focus on the king or power or ruler only and this is the same little horn

False. Daniel 8 is about the Greek Empire overcoming the Persian Empire, and says nothing about Rome. These things are extensively described in the following blog posts:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8%CA%BCs-original-vision-of-%E2%80%9Cthe-pesharebellion%E2%80%9D-of-the-jews/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Antiochus Epiphanes has more written about him than any other post-Babylonian historical king in the Book of Daniel. He was the transition figure between the Greek and Roman Empires, having himself spent 14 years in Rome. And he was the antetype of the King of the North/Son of Perdition of Dan. 11:40-45. Hardly unimportant either militarily or prophetically.

False. Daniel 8 is about the Greek Empire overcoming the Persian Empire, and says nothing about Rome. These things are extensively described in the following blog posts:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1575-daniel-924-27-examined-part-2-daniel-8ʼs-original-vision-of-“the-pesharebellion”-of-the-jews/

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1576-part-2-conclusion/

Thank you William, and I certainly agree that the MAJORITY of folks believe as you do- they contend AE is spoken of in Daniel. 

But as you know, this is not my opinion! For me the 3rd kingdom is Greece and is appropriately symbolized by the brass belly and thighs. 

The 4th and final kingdom is of course the legs of iron and on down to the feet / toes. There is no space, if you will between the 3rd and 4th kingdoms. And pagan Rome is the beginning of the 4th. 

Pagan Rome came out of or from the NW territory of the 4 territories post Alexander. 

AE and others of that time were not represented by any one of the 4 images/animals in chapters 2, 7 or 8. 

But you are so right- there is a tremendous amount written about AE but this is because folks have grossly misinterpreted much of Daniel 8, 9 and definitely 11. Most contend 11 speaks very clearly of AE and his conflicts... but they are NOT looking for the Messiah and His Plan of Salvation in Daniel. They keep trying to identify the actors and events through our history books. 

The 4th kingdom is focused on:

1) the final kingdom on earth that begins with pagan Rome,

2) we have the coming of the Messiah early on and where He completes the 6 requirements of His mission in Daniel 9, 

3) His Word and Plan are to be spread to both Jew and Gentiles BUT within a relatively short amount of time the “little horn” comes forward from out of this 4th kingdom and wants to claim to represent God on earth, he can forgive sins, etc. This is the focus and message found on the last chapters of Daniel. It focuses on those individuals and events that will take place over the next 2,000 years (regardless of the name of the power or group that come to power) - those who will believe in Jesus and obey His commandments OR choose another path - one of course is the following of the prophesied “ little horn”.

There is a reason why God had Daniel reveal the 4 kingdoms and ALL their characteristics, timing and conquering features... IN 3 SEPARATE ways. 

Again, I do understand your thoughts on this because it IS the most accepted view... 

William, who do you believe is the 4th kingdom and who is the “little horn” that comes out of it?

And just as important is the TIMING of these two - I expect you might contend they arrive on the scene in the still near future as opposed to them arriving in the time of either pagan or papal Rome... 

Thanks William, Charlie 

 

[WilliamL]

5 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Thank you William, and I certainly agree that the MAJORITY of folks believe as you do- they contend AE is spoken of in Daniel. 

If you do not recognize that the historical acts of AE are described in accurate detail in 11:21-32, then you are way out in the far fringe.

And as far as Daniel 8 is concerned, 8:21 says:

And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

How you can equate this chapter to Rome is, again, way out there.

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

If you do not recognize that the historical acts of AE are described in accurate detail in 11:21-32, then you are way out in the far fringe.

And as far as Daniel 8 is concerned, 8:21 says:

And the rough goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

How you can equate this chapter to Rome is, again, way out there.

Sorry William, I am not saying that the rough goat is anyone but Greece- it certainly is Alexander. This is the 3rd kingdom not Rome. 

Rome (pagan) is the beginning of the 4th kingdom. This is represented by the “beast” in Daniel 7. 

Also, and I UNDERSTAND that most believe or contend that chapter 11 is post Alexander but it is not . It is all about the transition from pagan to papal Rome and the “little horn” corrupting God’s Plan of Salvation - His Word. The “little horn” will attempt to change times and laws and do those things against the Word of God. This is the real battle- a spiritual battle ending when Jesus returns to destroy the wicked and evil... the stone in chapter 2. 

So, who is the beast, this 4th kingdom and who is the “little horn” and when do you believe they arrive?

Thanks again, Charlie 

[WilliamL]

18 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Also, and I UNDERSTAND that most believe or contend that chapter 11 is post Alexander but it is not .

Everything from 11:4 onward is post-Alexander. The history of the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria are described in accurate detail up to 11:32+. Again, if you do not understand these things, your views are way out there. But of course, you do not feel any need to support your claims with substantive evidence.

 

24 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

So, who is the beast, this 4th kingdom and who is the “little horn” and when do you believe they arrive?

As I have said, the 4th kingdom is the Roman Empire in history. The little horn in its final manifestation will come to power after the Rapture, and persecute the remnant of Jacob for 3-1/2 times/1260 days. Details in my blog here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/

 

[Charlie744]

15 minutes ago, WilliamL said:

Everything from 11:4 onward is post-Alexander. The history of the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria are described in accurate detail up to 11:32+. Again, if you do not understand these things, your views are way out there. But of course, you do not feel any need to support your claims with substantive evidence.

 

As I have said, the 4th kingdom is the Roman Empire in history. The little horn in its final manifestation will come to power after the Rapture, and persecute the remnant of Jacob for 3-1/2 times/1260 days. Details in my blog here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1449-the-1260-days/

 

Thank you William. Daniel 11:5 begins with the 4th kingdom and there is nothing in 11 that speaks of AE or the Ptolemy empire, etc. They are not a kingdom and although they do come me after Alexander and pre pagan Rome, they have no standing or relevance in Daniel.... although just about all contend these verses closely match with our history books of the post Alexander timeline. 

The 10 horns and the little horn come out of the beast - the 10 horns were already “in play”, if you will, prior to pagan Rome and the little horn arose out of this beast (pagan Rome) around 500 AD or so- that is the papacy. 

Unfortunately, I am not at liberty to disclose the 10 horns at this time nor the 3 that this little horn disposed of... 

Sorry, but chapter 11 has been grossly misinterpreted- the key to 11 is to identify those who had come to power (pagan Rome) and then the transition to papal Rome. The majority of 11 addresses the actions / activities this little horn will bring upon man and against God —- this is the message of the latter chapters of Daniel. God is not interested in simply reveal to us another history lesson on some very unimportant characters like AE. He is revealing to us those things that will take place over / during the 4th kingdom or the last 2,000 years. 

Charlie

 

[Dennis1209]

3 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Everything from 11:4 onward is post-Alexander. The history of the Ptolemies of Egypt and the Seleucids of Syria are described in accurate detail up to 11:32+

Hi WilliamL,

Sounds like you're a history buff like myself. Without going into all the details of history, Alexander's four generals, the eastern and western legs of the Roman empire, the continuance of the empire through the church-state Roman Catholic Church, the Ottoman empire etc. 

It's interesting to note, putting an overlay of the old Roman empire at its zenith, over a modern day map of today; 2/3 of that area is now Islamic nations. 

With this Pope Francis and his successful ecumenical movement, signing letters of agreement with the Muslim's, and bringing back the "protesters" under the umbrella of the one true church. That every religion worships the same god, only by a different name...

I find this very interesting prophetically. Iron and miry clay doesn't mix, it's partially strong and partially weak. The RCC has about 1.4 billion adherents, Islam has about 1.2 billion adherents. That seems to me to be pretty strong. The two major factions of Islam (Shia - Sunni) hate each other and are constantly at war killing each other [weak]. There's great turmoil and infighting within the RCC with what this Francis is saying and doing. 

I just find the aforementioned interesting relating to prophetic scripture in Daniel, Revelation and elsewhere. I'm not suggesting anything, but just watching as things and events unfold. You have any thoughts?