Fishing for an answer, starting by opening a can of worms.

[Riverwalker]

In regards to Salvation

Romans 1:18-20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Before I go on I want to state clearly and for the record that there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved, than Jesus Christ.  There is no question that no one is saved except by the work  Jesus on the cross. . Even the Old testament law could not save *

But what if you never heard that name. What if you were born in Ethiopia in 900BC  but you saw God in creation and you bowed humbly before Him , would God "Account that to him as righteousness" as he did to many Old Testament saints? Do you have to know the name Jesus which is the enghlish translation of a Greek word of a Hebrew Name Y'shua.  

Did the Ethiopian in 900bc who humbled himself in faith, Or the Sioux and many other Native American tribes who looked to the Great Spirit, have access to the salvation of Jesus Christ, even though they never knew his name?

For the Hebrew, did the  faith in the promise of a coming savior, hold as much weight as our faith in the risen savior?

In the scripture it says God has revealed himself to man since the creation of the world. and those suppress the truth  (aka deny) will see God's wrath, but is it not also implied that those who embrace the truth will not taste his wrath?

God's part / action of Salvation was the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ....what is our part?  Faith. Would not that Souix, the Ethopian old testament saint et al, have the same access to God, by what he revealed and they accepted by faith, even if they do not know the name of Jesus?

 

Looking for input here, I realize this is a controversial question so I won't argue the point, but I will post if there is some clarification need.

 

* Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you[a] free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in the flesh, 4 in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

 

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Riverwalker

[OneLight]

Have you ever considered the words of Paul in Romans 2:12-16?

For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law (for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

[Marilyn C]

2 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

In regards to Salvation

Romans 1:18-20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Before I go on I want to state clearly and for the record that there is no other name given under heaven by which we must be saved, than Jesus Christ.  There is no question that no one is saved except by the work  Jesus on the cross. . Even the Old testament law could not save *

But what if you never heard that name. What if you were born in Ethiopia in 900BC  but you saw God in creation and you bowed humbly before Him , would God "Account that to him as righteousness" as he did to many Old Testament saints? Do you have to know the name Jesus which is the english translation of a Greek word of a Hebrew Name Y'shua.  

 

Hi Riverwalker,

I agree that it is because of the work of Jesus on the cross that any one can have salvation. 

Then you have brought up a very important point that reveals the heart of God the Father, `God so loved the world...` (John 3: 16) He loves those before the cross and after, those who knew of Jesus and those who don`t. God has His hand outstretched in the past, today and in the future, - tribulation and millennium.

So then we asked `How can people be saved if they know not Jesus.?` 

God the Father is well aware of this and has made provision for them, though they are only `saved` because of Jesus` sacrifice. We read in the Psalms that the heavens declare the glory of the Lord. Also in people`s hearts they know when they do wrong and what they should do. There is the outward witness and the inward one.

Thus God will judge all mankind, (not those in the Body of Christ or OT believers) at the Great White Throne. There we see that every person will be judged on `their works.` 

`And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.` (Rev. 20: 12).

The `books` will show the motivation of the works that the dead had done. If some people had lived rightly by their conscience then they would be `saved.` If not they would go into the lake of fire.

 

[other one]

Matt 25:31-46

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." 
NASB
 

[Riverwalker]

8 hours ago, other one said:

Matt 25:31-46

31 "But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 "Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.' 37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You drink? 38 'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 'And when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 "And the King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.' 41 "Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 42 for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink; 43 I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.' 44 "Then they themselves also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' 45 "Then He will answer them, saying, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." 
NASB
 

I would be interest in your take on that scripture contextually as it applies to the idea posted

[other one]

6 hours ago, Riverwalker said:

I would be interest in your take on that scripture contextually as it applies to the idea posted

To me it is expressing salvation to those who have not heard of Him in life, but did the things he told us to do by nature.    And to those that thought they were saved but were never actually followers of his teaching.  We quote him in saying that He is the only way to the Father, but miss the real meaning...    It is not knowing who he is that saves us, it's doing what he told us to do...   either by hearing of him, or doing so by nature.

Does that mean that we are saved by our works....    no, not at all.  Without Jesus and his sacrifice we would not be able to receive salvation at all. And it is Jesus who decides who will be "saved" and who will not.

Matthew shows us that we can believe and even do miracles in his name but if we do not live our lives the way he told us, we were only lying when we confessed him as Lord and as in Matthew chapter seven he says "I never knew you"

When you say in the OP that the nature of God was obvious and we have no excuse, Matthew 25 relates the end effect of it.    Those who recognize that and live their lives that way, Jesus will take note in His decision of our eternity.

I think Matthew 25 shows us that works can actually save a person if they had never heard of him, but a person with no works isn't really saved.   I know that makes me a heretic in most people's eyes.

[Gary Loger]

On 1/19/2021 at 10:15 PM, Riverwalker said:

In regards to Salvation

Romans 1:18-20 18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

 

This passage as well as the entire chapter is referencing backsliding christians. Those who suppress the truth are christians, not non-believers. 

 

As for those who haven't heard the gospel. Onelight posted a passage from Romans 2. That explains everything. 

[Charlie744]

Perhaps we can cut this possible answer / responses in haff----- If you believe in the flood, then ALL 8 of the world's survivors were God fearing people. Therefore, Noah, his wife, kids and sons in law ALL saw / witnessed the hand of God.

What happened?  Some chose to follow / obey the One True God, others went their own way. God took away any and all other possible reasons for man to worship after the flood  - they were taught by Noah about God, there was no nature to fall back on - it was all destroyed, etc., it simply comes down to CHOICE  - as it was in the beginning!

Now, IF one agrees with that, then we might look for reasons why folks turned their own way prior tot he flood.....  Adam certainly knew God on a personal level...... but he made his choice .... there doesn't seem to be ANY time on this earth when God was NOT known to mankind......

Just my thoughts, Charlie

[Gary Loger]

11 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

Perhaps we can cut this possible answer / responses in haff----- If you believe in the flood, then ALL 8 of the world's survivors were God fearing people. Therefore, Noah, his wife, kids and sons in law ALL saw / witnessed the hand of God.

What happened?  Some chose to follow / obey the One True God, others went their own way. God took away any and all other possible reasons for man to worship after the flood  - they were taught by Noah about God, there was no nature to fall back on - it was all destroyed, etc., it simply comes down to CHOICE  - as it was in the beginning!

Now, IF one agrees with that, then we might look for reasons why folks turned their own way prior tot he flood.....  Adam certainly knew God on a personal level...... but he made his choice .... there doesn't seem to be ANY time on this earth when God was NOT known to mankind......

Just my thoughts, Charlie

The fallen angels.