Daniel 11 -first 6 verses - Can we identify them?

[Charlie744]

Anyone want to continue and discuss 11:4 to 11:6? 

Is Rome the 4th kingdom in Daniel’s chapter 2?

Does the 4th kingdom begin in chapter 11 in verse 11:5?

And therefore is the KOS Israel?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Revelation Man]

On 2/14/2021 at 11:44 AM, Charlie744 said:

Anyone want to continue and discuss 11:4 to 11:6? 

Is Rome the 4th kingdom in Daniel’s chapter 2?

Does the 4th kingdom begin in chapter 11 in verse 11:5?

And therefore is the KOS Israel?

 Thank you, Charlie 

I did an Exegesis on the whole chapter a few years back. I cover ever verse in detail and name every king and how they came to power via the palace intrigue.

 

[Charlie744]

44 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I did an Exegesis on the whole chapter a few years back. I cover ever verse in detail and name every king and how they came to power via the palace intrigue.

 

RM, thank you very much for sending this! I can not imagine the knowledge and effort it must have taken to generate this work! 

But without offending you in ANY way I don’t believe chapter 11 speaks of the individuals and conflicts that took place post Alexander and pre-pagan Rome.

If I were to try and sum up that thought it could NEVER be one that could refute your level of work but it would be based on only one point- 11 is a major prophetic chapter in one of the most prophetic books in the Bible. 

Prophetic not in an historical way where it is reveals those actors within your study but one that speaks / reveals the most important person (Messiah) and the events, both short and long term which focus solely on His Plan of Salvation. 

The 4th kingdom is where EVERYTHING happens - the beast comes to power (4th kingdom$, the 10 horns previously symbolizes as 10 toes will move on top or become prominent in this 4th kingdom, another “little horn” will emerge that gains power over this 4th kingdom by trying to mirror or assimilate with these 10 horns. He will succeed and then he (man) will dispose of 3 of them in order to gain even more power, authority and control over mankind. 

These actors and events do not relate to historical man but to the Messianic Man- to the coming Messiah.  

I don’ believe God is having Daniel write such a prophetic book without revealing His Plan of Salvation- 1st to and for the Jews, and then to and for all mankind. 

This is why it is so important to try and change the “approach”to interpreting the last 2 chapters of Daniel (along with chapter 9 which has also been completely corrupted by the RCC)- we have HIS last two chapters to see HIS revelation of things to come about HIM - not a few historical folks that happen to live after Alexander (3rd kingdom) and before the coming Messiah (since HE comes in the 4th kingdom of pagan Rome). 

Chapter 11 IS THE MOST difficult and complicated chapter perhaps in the Bible (have not attempted Revelation which I suspect will surpass 11), but even though I have not completed it, there is NO DOUBT IT MUST BE INTERPRETED IN A MESSIANIC way not a purely historical way NOT focused on God’s Plan of Salvation. 

Look forward to your thoughts and once again, your work on this is tremendous (but that really doesn’t mean too much since there are so many truly talented academics, theologians, scholars, etc., that would have the same opinion- I am none of the above). 

So, it is really a different “approach / focus” here regarding 11. Thanks for responding, Charlie 

 

 

[Charlie744]

4 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

I did an Exegesis on the whole chapter a few years back. I cover ever verse in detail and name every king and how they came to power via the palace intrigue.

 

RM, to try and continue this discussion and if you might be agreeable, I believe one of the best approaches to understanding the message within Daniel 11 is to go back to the beginning of Daniel.  This is where it all starts - Chapter 2 when Nebuchadnezzar is given the image of the metal man and Daniel is given the ability to interpret it..... This image symbolizes the rest of mankind AND how God will introduce HIMSELF to the world through the 4th kingdom and HIS PEOPLE.

Consequently, the most important task would be to identify just who are these 4 kingdoms of the metal man. If you want to take this a step at a time and see if and when our interpretations might begin to move apart, that would be great.... but it must start at the beginning not with 11. Thanks, Charlie

[Revelation Man]

On 2/16/2021 at 10:11 PM, Charlie744 said:

RM, to try and continue this discussion and if you might be agreeable, I believe one of the best approaches to understanding the message within Daniel 11 is to go back to the beginning of Daniel.  This is where it all starts - Chapter 2 when Nebuchadnezzar is given the image of the metal man and Daniel is given the ability to interpret it..... This image symbolizes the rest of mankind AND how God will introduce HIMSELF to the world through the 4th kingdom and HIS PEOPLE.

Consequently, the most important task would be to identify just who are these 4 kingdoms of the metal man. If you want to take this a step at a time and see if and when our interpretations might begin to move apart, that would be great.... but it must start at the beginning not with 11. Thanks, Charlie

I was just dropping this for you guys discussions, I have been out of pocket for a few days. I will go back and read the other post and reply/rebut as I am want to do (the way to learn end time Eschatology is to debate it). I personally find too many people come with ideas they are not ready to put down and allow God to show them His truths. God told me that about 5 years ago when my prayer was Lord why are we nor seeing these end time events clearly, why are there hundreds of understandings of who the Harlot is, what the Four Beasts are, who Babylon is etc. And I got this, "Ron, you guys already now it all". 

After this, I understood, all God wants us to do is put down the Eschatology we learned from other men as young Christians, the "POSITIONS" we took up, and to just simply say, God what does this mean, and the Holy Spirit would thus show us. So, that is what I did, and along the way, while ASKING I figured, since God is showing me things, (which started coming easy) I might as well tackle the hardest to learn subjects, Daniel 11 which became 11 & 12 and should have been 10, 11 and 12 I later learned, its ONE VISION. And the whole book of Revelation. So, by tackling the hardest, and just asking, God was like, sure, My will is to give mankind this understanding in the end times, but men already have their answers, in their own  minds, so its much harder for Me to reach them. 

Anyway, I will look at the reply above. I have some free time tonight.

Edited February 18, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

2 minutes ago, Revelation Man said:

I was just dropping this for you guys discussions, I have been out of pocket for a few days. I will go back and read the other post and reply/rebut as I am want to do (the way to learn end time Eschatology is to debate it). I personally find too many people come with ideas they are not ready to put down and allow God to show them Hid truths. God told e that about 5 years ago when my prayer was Lord why are we nor seeing these end time events clearly, why are there hundreds of understandings of who the Harlot is, what the Four Beasts are, who Babylon is etc. And I got this, "Ron, you guys already now it all". 

After this, I understood, all God wants us to do is put down  the Eschatology we learned from other men as young Christians, the "POSITIONS" we took up, and to just simply say, God what does this mean, and the Holy Spirit would thus show us. So, that is what I did, and along the way, while ASKING I figured, since God is showing me things, (which started coming easy) I might as well tackle the hardest to learn subjects, Daniel 11 which became 11 & 12 and should have been 10, 11 and 12 I later learned, its ONE VISION. And the whole book of Revelation. So, by tackling the hardest, and just asking, God was like, sure, my will is to give mankind this understanding in the end times, but men already have their answers, in their own  minds, so its much harder for Me to reach them. 

Anyway, I will look at the reply above. I have some free time tonight.

Thank you so much for taking the time and consideration to respond. Since I have come onto this forum I have seem more than a few folks who are absolutely certain they have the most correct and impressive understanding and interpretations of certain verses....... I believe, unfortunately, I now might have fallen into that category ....... well, I certainly have a foot in the door! But I do agree with you that these very complicated verses and chapters (double emphasise on 11) should be discussed and not forced on anyone. I look forward to hearing from you in the near future should you find the time, best wishes always, Charlie

[Revelation Man]

On 2/16/2021 at 6:50 PM, Charlie744 said:

RM, thank you very much for sending this! I can not imagine the knowledge and effort it must have taken to generate this work! 

But without offending you in ANY way I don’t believe chapter 11 speaks of the individuals and conflicts that took place post Alexander and pre-pagan Rome.

Alexander died when he was like 32-33 so it would have to be post Alexander would it not? Unless you mean post his Greek Beast Kingdom.

On 2/16/2021 at 6:50 PM, Charlie744 said:

If I were to try and sum up that thought it could NEVER be one that could refute your level of work but it would be based on only one point- 11 is a major prophetic chapter in one of the most prophetic books in the Bible. 

Prophetic not in an historical way where it is reveals those actors within your study but one that speaks / reveals the most important person (Messiah) and the events, both short and long term which focus solely on His Plan of Salvation. 

Daniel 9 speaks of the Messiah getting killed (CUT-OFF) after 69 weeks. Then in Daniel 10 we see a Demonic battle where the prince of Persia (IMHO, Apollyon) resists Michael for 21 days, and Michael's orders from God was to allow Alexander the Great to defeat Persia. Then continuing on into Daniel 11 we get the most important rundown and the most precise rundown of the lineage of any kingdom in history via prophesy via Gabriel's description of the Greek Kings from  Alexander to the TYPE Anti-Christ in Antiochus (verses 21-33 maybe 34) and then we get the real Anti-Christ in verses 36-45.

It's not a Chronological dream per se. We get the WHOLE RUNDOWN and even the 2000 plus year gap, of the Greek Kings, and there is a reason we get all of this detail, the Anti-Christ is born in Greece, Daniel 8:9 makes that perfectly clear, he can not be born anywhere else but Greece, via the little SQUARE BOX God gives us with four directions, which makes it very, very easy to understand this. Verse 9 says he waxes GREAT TOWARDS the East, South and Israel thus that tells us in the TARGET BOX where he has to come from, the Northwest or Greece. Seleucus can not conquer towards the east, Iran and Russia are to his east, Egypt(Ptolemy) can not conquer towards the south, it is the southern most part of the Four generals territory. 

We are given the Greek kings from Alexander to his TYPE Antiochus, then we are given the END TIME Greek king who will be the Anti-Christ. He is brought to his end in verse 45, THEN, Daniel 12 is what the 70th week looks like in a more concise telling, kind of like Genesis chapter one is the Creation from God's point of view, and Genesis 2 is the Creation from a Man (Adam and Eves) point of view, a more concise rendering thereof as it applies to mankind.

On 2/16/2021 at 6:50 PM, Charlie744 said:

The 4th kingdom is where EVERYTHING happens - the beast comes to power (4th kingdom$, the 10 horns previously symbolizes as 10 toes will move on top or become prominent in this 4th kingdom, another “little horn” will emerge that gains power over this 4th kingdom by trying to mirror or assimilate with these 10 horns. He will succeed and then he (man) will dispose of 3 of them in order to gain even more power, authority and control over mankind. 

There is actually a 5th kingdom, but just like there are 7 Beast Heads (which tells us there are THREE MORE than Daniel mentions) Daniel is only told about 4 and ANOTHER (Little Horn) that arises from the Head pf the Fourth Beast at the END TIME. Which makes it a 5th Beast. The proper reading of Daniel 7 tells us it is a 5th Beast, if we read between the lines. I will show how people overlook this:

Dan. 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

So, we agree that ALL FOUR Beasts were DIFFERENT from one another right? 

Lets delve deeper then.........

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; .........AND it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

I will explain this first, then give Gabriel's interpretation of the dream which comes later in the chapter, so as not to conflate things.

Verse 7 speaks about the Roman Beast rising up (Fourth Beast), then we are told it was DIFFERENT from all the Beasts that were before it, but that shouldn't be a surprise, since verse 3 says ALL the Beasts were different, BUT I think this has an added dimension to the meaning DIFFERENT when Gabriel interprets the dram later on in the chapter. 

I think the ABOVE DIFFERENCE is way deeper in that it has a GAP between TWO DIFFERENT Beasts that come from the SAME PLACE. Thus the ..........AND it has 10 horns, just like the 10 toes that are a part of the Iron and Clay feet. In the bible, God uses numbers, the numbers 10 and 7 mean COMPLETENESS, 12 means FULNESSS, etc. etc, thus the 10 here doesn't man 10 just like the 10 in Rev. 2:10 via the Church of Smyrna having tribulation 10 days doesn't mean 10 days, it means for the entire 2000 some odd year Church Age period. Just like where God says there are 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits in Revelation, that means God sees ALL and is EVERYWHERE. So, the 10 Horns simply mean ALL of Europe or the whole base where the Fourth Beast originally arose become SEPERATED (Iron & Clay, they will not CLEAVE to one another, even when Royal Marriage is tried via the SEED of men) and try as they might, neither Charlemagne, Napoleon, nor Hitler could bring Europe back as one entity, nor could Royal Marriage, so God stated there would become MANY NATIONS (10 means the full entity thereof, but they would be separate entities all along the way, a la France, Spain, Germany, etc. etc. etc. until the very end times, then when Israel is reborn, so will this entity be REBORN, and we know Israel became a nation in 1948, and the European Council of Rome was formed in the 50s.

Thus the Little Horn (Anti-Christ) was born AMONGST the 10 (COMES UP in a divided Europe) which comes back together in the end times, and then Jesus (Ancient of days) will conquer them. He is a MAN who has EYES and a MOUTH. He is never a Kingdom like the others because he gets cast into hell and never passes his kingdom on to another man, thus he is THE BEAST himself. This is what Rev. 13 means by a Mortal Wound, it is speaking of the 7 Headed Beast going away during the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, then returning after the Rapture of the Church. It means Israel has to be under bondage, else there can be NO BEAST. The 70 weeks Judgment is a judgment against Israel not the Church of Jesus Christ, it is designed to get Israel to turn back unto God, not the Church. Thus the Beast GOES AWAY when Israel is as Dead Men's Bones and returns when God revives Israel, but only after the Church is Raptured to heaven.

GABRIEL'S INTERPRETATION

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them (Rev. 13);22 Until (Rev. 13/END TIMES) the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and HE shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And HE shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (See the 1260 in Daniel 12:7)

NOTICE the HE in verse 24, it says HE is DIVERSE from the FIRST.......Not ALL THE BEASTS (KEY POINT) as Daniel 7:3 says, we know ALL the Beasts were different from each other, but right here Gabriel is speaking about the FOURTH BEAST ONLY, the FIRST BEAST is Rome, not Babylon, HE (The Anti-Christ) is DIFFERENT from the First Beast (Rome). If Gabriel meant from ALL THE BEASTS like verse 3 indicates, He would have stated that, but instead, he says HE was different from the FIRST BEAST, and that is not talking about Babylon, if it were saying Rome was different from Babylon specifically, it would make NO SENSE, we were told in verse 3, ALL OF THE BEASTS WERE DIFFERENT !! So, what Daniel is being told is the Fourth Beast has TWO SEPERATE BEATS that come to power, one 2000 some odd years ago, who receives a Mortal Wound, then a MAN (HE) who arises at the very end of time, where Jesus DESYROYS HIM, and as Dan. 7:11 says clearly, casts him into hell fire, so there is a 5th Beast in Daniel 7. 

The E.U. will conquer all of North Africa, Lebanon, Syria, most of Jordan save the Petra/Bozrah area, and Israel, and thus it will look exactly like the Fourth Beast did on a map. ONE MAN will be the Beast however, that is why the number given him is 666 the number of mankind IMHO, not a specified name. God is 777 man is 666.

The Anti-Christ is seen in Daniel 11 brother. 

God Bless. 

Edited February 18, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Alexander died when he was like 32-33 so it would have to be post Alexander would it not? Unless you mean post his Greek Beast Kingdom.

Daniel 9 speaks of the Messiah getting killed (CUT-OFF) after 69 weeks. Then in Daniel 10 we see a Demonic battle where the prince of Persia (IMHO, Apollyon) resists Michael for 21 days, and Michael's orders from God was to allow Alexander the Great to defeat Persia. Then continuing on into Daniel 11 we get the most important rundown and the most precise rundown of the lineage of any kingdom in history via prophesy via Gabriel's description of the Greek Kings from  Alexander to the TYPE Anti-Christ in Antiochus (verses 21-33 maybe 34) and then we get the real Anti-Christ in verses 36-45.

It's not a Chronological dream per se. We get the WHOLE RUNDOWN and even the 2000 plus year gap, of the Greek Kings, and there is a reason we get all of this detail, the Anti-Christ is born in Greece, Daniel 8:9 makes that perfectly clear, he can not be born anywhere else but Greece, via the little SQUARE BOX God gives us with four directions, which makes it very, very easy to understand this. Verse 9 says he waxes GREAT TOWARDS the East, South and Israel thus that tells us in the TARGET BOX where he has to come from, the Northwest or Greece. Seleucus can not conquer towards the east, Iran and Russia are to his east, Egypt(Ptolemy) can not conquer towards the south, it is the southern most part of the Four generals territory. 

We are given the Greek kings from Alexander to his TYPE Antiochus, then we are given the END TIME Greek king who will be the Anti-Christ. He is brought to his end in verse 45, THEN, Daniel 12 is what the 70th week looks like in a more concise telling, kind of like Genesis chapter one is the Creation from God's point of view, and Genesis 2 is the Creation from a Man (Adam and Eves) point of view, a more concise rendering thereof as it applies to mankind.

There is actually a 5th kingdom, but just like there are 7 Beast Heads (which tells us there are THREE MORE than Daniel mentions) Daniel is only told about 4 and ANOTHER (Little Horn) that arises from the Head pf the Fourth Beast at the END TIME. Which makes it a 5th Beast. The proper reading of Daniel 7 tells us it is a 5th Beast, if we read between the lines. I will show how people overlook this:

Dan. 7:3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.

So, we agree that ALL FOUR Beasts were DIFFERENT from one another right? 

Lets delve deeper then.........

7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; .........AND it had ten horns.

8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. 9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

I will explain this first, then give Gabriel's interpretation of the dream which comes later in the chapter, so as not to conflate things.

Verse 7 speaks about the Roman Beast rising up (Fourth Beast), then we are told it was DIFFERENT from all the Beasts that were before it, but that shouldn't be a surprise, since verse 3 says ALL the Beasts were different, BUT I think this has an added dimension to the meaning DIFFERENT when Gabriel interprets the dram later on in the chapter. 

I think the ABOVE DIFFERENCE is way deeper in that it has a GAP between TWO DIFFERENT Beasts that come from the SAME PLACE. Thus the ..........AND it has 10 horns, just like the 10 toes that are a part of the Iron and Clay feet. In the bible, God uses numbers, the numbers 10 and 7 mean COMPLETENESS, 12 means FULNESSS, etc. etc, thus the 10 here doesn't man 10 just like the 10 in Rev. 2:10 via the Church of Smyrna having tribulation 10 days doesn't mean 10 days, it means for the entire 2000 some odd year Church Age period. Just like where God says there are 7 Eyes and 7 Spirits in Revelation, that means God sees ALL and is EVERYWHERE. So, the 10 Horns simply mean ALL of Europe or the whole base where the Fourth Beast originally arose become SEPERATED (Iron & Clay, they will not CLEAVE to one another, even when Royal Marriage is tried via the SEED of men) and try as they might, neither Charlemagne, Napoleon, nor Hitler could bring Europe back as one entity, nor could Royal Marriage, so God stated there would become MANY NATIONS (10 means the full entity thereof, but they would be separate entities all along the way, a la France, Spain, Germany, etc. etc. etc. until the very end times, then when Israel is reborn, so will this entity be REBORN, and we know Israel became a nation in 1948, and the European Council of Rome was formed in the 50s.

Thus the Little Horn (Anti-Christ) was born AMONGST the 10 (COMES UP in a divided Europe) which comes back together in the end times, and then Jesus (Ancient of days) will conquer them. He is a MAN who has EYES and a MOUTH. He is never a Kingdom like the others because he gets cast into hell and never passes his kingdom on to another man, thus he is THE BEAST himself. This is what Rev. 13 means by a Mortal Wound, it is speaking of the 7 Headed Beast going away during the 2000 some odd year Church Age Period, then returning after the Rapture of the Church. It means Israel has to be under bondage, else there can be NO BEAST. The 70 weeks Judgment is a judgment against Israel not the Church of Jesus Christ, it is designed to get Israel to turn back unto God, not the Church. Thus the Beast GOES AWAY when Israel is as Dead Men's Bones and returns when God revives Israel, but only after the Church is Raptured to heaven.

GABRIEL'S INTERPRETATION

Dan 7:19 Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, which was diverse from all the others, exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, and his nails of brass; which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet;

20 And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. 21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them (Rev. 13);22 Until (Rev. 13/END TIMES) the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and HE shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.

25 And HE shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (See the 1260 in Daniel 12:7)

NOTICE the HE in verse 24, it says HE is DIVERSE from the FIRST.......Not ALL THE BEASTS (KEY POINT) as Daniel 7:3 says, we know ALL the Beasts were different from each other, but right here Gabriel is speaking about the FOURTH BEAST ONLY, the FIRST BEAST is Rome, not Babylon, HE (The Anti-Christ) is DIFFERENT from the First Beast (Rome). If Gabriel meant from ALL THE BEASTS like verse 3 indicates, He would have stated that, but instead, he says HE was different from the FIRST BEAST, and that is not talking about Babylon, if it were saying Rome was different from Babylon specifically, it would make NO SENSE, we were told in verse 3, ALL OF THE BEASTS WERE DIFFERENT !! So, what Daniel is being told is the Fourth Beast has TWO SEPERATE BEATS that come to power, one 2000 some odd years ago, who receives a Mortal Wound, then a MAN (HE) who arises at the very end of time, where Jesus DESYROYS HIM, and as Dan. 7:11 says clearly, casts him into hell fire, so there is a 5th Beast in Daniel 7. 

The E.U. will conquer all of North Africa, Lebanon, Syria, most of Jordan save the Petra/Bozrah area, and Israel, and thus it will look exactly like the Fourth Beast did on a map. ONE MAN will be the Beast however, that is why the number given him is 666 the number of mankind IMHO, not a specified name. God is 777 man is 666.

The Anti-Christ is seen in Daniel 11 brother. 

God Bless. 

RM, thank you for all the consideration in preparing this response..... again, there is absolutely no way more than a few folks could generate or duplicate this level of detail...... I will CERTAINLY enjoy reading this and try and ask relevant questions but I would respectfully request that we might take this very slowly where we might be able to easily learn where our interpretations depart. If we simply had a disagreement on 11 that would be one thing and we could jump directly to this verse or that verse and discuss, but I honestly believe this is an "approach" issue that begins in the beginning = that would be chapter 2. Again, if you do not mind, if we take this slowly it should smooth out the demand on us and allow us to learn why we have come to our interpretations on a micro scale. 

I hope you don't mind, especially since you have obviously done all the heavy lifting in your Daniel study.

Just to try and start this....... In Daniel chapter 2, Nebuchadnezzar is given a dream to be interpreted by Daniel. I believe he recognizes 4 kingdoms with each having a different metal covering for their respective parts of the metal man. 

Without moving on to chapter 7 or 8 where we are given additional information and symbols for those kingdoms, would you mind telling me your interpretations of these kingdoms and of course the feet and toes as well as the Stone that will be hurled down to destroy the entire image.

I believe if we have any major differences they will begin in chapter 2. Thank you, Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Revelation Man]

21 hours ago, Charlie744 said:

RM, thank you for all the consideration in preparing this response..... again, there is absolutely no way more than a few folks could generate or duplicate this level of detail...... I will CERTAINLY enjoy reading this and try and ask relevant questions but I would respectfully request that we might take this very slowly where we might be able to easily learn where our interpretations depart. If we simply had a disagreement on 11 that would be one thing and we could jump directly to this verse or that verse and discuss, but I honestly believe this is an "approach" issue that begins in the beginning = that would be chapter 2. Again, if you do not mind, if we take this slowly it should smooth out the demand on us and allow us to learn why we have come to our interpretations on a micro scale. 

I hope you don't mind, especially since you have obviously done all the heavy lifting in your Daniel study.

Just to try and start this....... In Daniel chapter 2, Nebuchadnezzar is given a dream to be interpreted by Daniel. I believe he recognizes 4 kingdoms with each having a different metal covering for their respective parts of the metal man. 

Without moving on to chapter 7 or 8 where we are given additional information and symbols for those kingdoms, would you mind telling me your interpretations of these kingdoms and of course the feet and toes as well as the Stone that will be hurled down to destroy the entire image.

I believe if we have any major differences they will begin in chapter 2. Thank you, Charlie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, it begins in Daniel 2, and that is a dream from Nebuchadnezzar's perspective, in other words he saw these kingdoms as precious metals, God sees them as Beasts of Prey [or Beast of Dominance]. (What a contrast hey? Lol).

God gives us all the history in these dreams, via the Statue of Metals and the Beasts of Dominance. They both cover the Beasts over Israel, BUT......Israel became as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, only to be reborn again at the very end times, God via Ezekiel told us this was going to happen. So the Statue SPANS from Babylon to Rome via the Four Precious Metals of Dominating Kingdoms, the kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, then there is no Beast or Precious Metals, it becomes Iron MIXED with Clay instead, meaning the Statue becomes divided or weak, thus the Church Age took over and rendered the Dominating Beast as sub par so to speak. Israel could not be ruled over because God threw Israel overboard and brought forth the gentile church which changed Rome (Mortal Wound) from an IRON KINGDOM of strength into a segmented kingdom of small countries (thus the Iron and Clay feet and 10 toes or MANY Nations in general, not 10) which could not cleave unto one another, try as they might, even via Royal Marriage (seed of men). 

Only when we get to the very end times does this kingdom reunite, and God then via Jesus' Second Coming, God hurls the rock into the feet to destroy this statue at its base. So, we have the Kingdoms............The Church Age with NO ISRAEL until 1948....... then after the Rapture God calls once again on Israel to repent during their 70th week of Judgment, which is a requirement for the 70 weeks to end. Thus it has not happened yet, Israel as a Nation has never repented, but they will during the 70th week, as Zechariah 13:8-9 says AND as Malachi 4:5-6 says. The mistake I see men make is they do not understand God's relation with time, God sets a timeline of 70 weeks of Judgment on Israel, His will was to bring the Kingdom unto Israel in 70 AD, but Israel wouldn't repent, thus Jesus says this in Matt. 23, how many times did I desire to gather you unto myself but YE WOULD NOT, thus the next time you see me you will say Blessed is he who comes in the name of God (Paraphrasing there). 

In other words, Jesus told the Jews 2000 years ago that because they rejected him/God, that God would forsake them, and that when he did return, they were going to be crying out Blessed is Jesus who is come in the Fathers name !! Because both Zechariah 13 and Malachi 4:5 tells us that is exactly what happens. The Jews (1/3) accept Jesus during the 70th week, this is why the Statue spans a 2500 year period of time, even though Rome was not a power over the last 1500 years or so, its all about bringing Israel unto repentance via this Statue or via the Beasts. Once God forsook Israel and called on the Gentile Church He deserted Israel until the last 7 years, then after the Rapture the Israel penance is revived, and they must then repent for turning away from God over 2500 years ago. 

That, in general is what Daniel 2 is about, now we can go over it line by line, but I like to do a broad overture on these subjects first. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Revelation Man

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

Yes, it begins in Daniel 2, and that is a dream from Nebuchadnezzar's perspective, in other words he saw these kingdoms as precious metals, God sees them as Beasts of Prey [or Beast of Dominance]. (What a contrast hey? Lol).

Yes, if it were so true it would be funny. And thanks for providing this overall summary of Daniel!

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

God gives us all the history in these dreams, via the Statue of Metals and the Beasts of Dominance. The cover the Beasts over Israel, BUT......Israel became as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, only to be reborn again at the very end times, God via Ezekiel told us this was going to happen. So the Statue SPANS from Babylon to Rome via the Four Precious Metals of Dominating Kingdoms, the kingdoms of Babylon, Persia, Greece and Rome, then there is no Beast or Precious Metals, it becomes Iron MIXED with Clay instead, meaning the Statue becomes divided or weak, thus the Church Age took over and rendered the Dominating Beast as sub par so to speak. Israel could not be ruled over because God threw Israel overboard and brought forth the gentile church which changed Rome (Mortal Wound) from an IRON KINGDOM of strength into a segmented kingdom of small countries (thus the Iron and Clay feet and 10 toes or MANY Nations in general, not 10) which could not cleave unto one another, try as they might, even via Royal Marriage (seed of men).

 

Ok, so we certainly agree there are 4 kingdoms and we agree on each with Rome appearing as a beast that can not be compared to any animal on earth because it will indeed be the final kingdom and exist until the end of time. However, as you state, it will be pagan Rome throughout this 2,000 year with the same terrible and worldly evil characteristics but NOT in that name. This beast will take on many names and powers but it represents mankind and their evil practices (it is composed of the previous 3 kingdoms PLUS).

Now, I would like to add some things here regarding this metal man image that, in my opinion, causes so many to drive off the track, if you will later in Daniel. Daniel reveals only 4 kingdoms of metal which reveal NO separation between each metal type. He uses this metal image for many reasons but one is to tell us that this 4 metals come together one after another and almost "welding together like" --- God is not giving mankind an opportunity to add or subtract any other power or kingdom between them.... 4 means 4 and they ARE AND MUST STAY UNTIL THE END OF TIME.....and they are the 4 you identified.

Further, God has "bracketed" this metal man so we also recognize the beginning and the end. The beginning of course is Babylon and the end is when this "Stone" is hurled down and destroys all of mankind's kingdoms, powers, practices, etc.

This metal man image is now a "closed system" if you will; we have the beginning and the end; we have each of the 4 kingdoms between the "brackets" with NO possibility of being added or subtracted between them. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas!

Unless I missed it, we are in agreement (too early to comment on church age and Revelation.... just want to study Daniel as though the two of us were doing this around the 1st century AD where we only have the OT on our desk.

Now, I believe we might want to carve up these 4 kingdoms by time. We both agree it runs from Babylon to now but we have to try and identify the verses within each kingdom into their respective time slots.

Since we agree that pagan Rome is the 4th kingdom after Greece we might want to identify the actors, events and characteristics given us in chapter 2 as best we can BUT JUST GIVEN THE INFORMATION IN CHAPTER 2 ONLY - WE CAN NOT PEAK AHEAD TO 7 OR 8...

Do you find:

1) there is no gap between Greece and Rome and Greece, as a kingdom ended with Alexander? Certainly there was a dividing of HIS KINGDOM into 4 territories but they are not represented in the metal man image. 

2) pagan Rome is symbolized by the legs of pure iron appropriately since it does reflect their "operating characteristics"; they welded the iron sword in a devastating manner, they had no heart or concern with any other group and they would use those powerful legs to travel the known world conquering any in their path..... totally ruthless and uncaring wherever they walked.

3) we now see the feet and toes change from pure iron to a mixture of iron and clay and, as you mentioned, it represents a breakdown of the pure iron; it is no longer as strong and is breaking apart, developing cracks and being mixed with clay. This clay may symbolize a few different things but I do agree with you that one of the most important is that clay = introduction of man into this metal image.

4) the 10 toes of iron and clay are noticed but at this time we can not identify who or what they are but their symbolism as 10 and toes is very important and must be identified later on.

So, without leaving chapter 2 would you mind offering your thoughts on the above - whether you agree or not.... also, please add your findings to this keeping in mind we can not look further than chapter 2. I am not bringing attention to the "Stone" now because we all accept it represents HIS second coming and it is without controversy. 

Once again, sorry for the slow walk but I have found in my own studies just how easy it is to gloss over what seem like insignificant facts. 

Look forward to your comments and thoughts, Charlie

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Revelation Man said:

 

Only when we get to the very end times does this kingdom reunite, and God then via Jesus' Second Coming hurls the rock into the feet to destroy this statue at its base. So, we have the Kingdoms............The Church Age with NO ISRAEL until 1948....... then after the Rapture God calls once again on Israel to repent during their 70th week of Judgment, which is a requirement for the 70 weeks to end. Thus it has not happened yet, Israel as a Nation has never repented, but they will during the 70th week, as Zechariah 13:8-9 says AND as Malachi 4:5-6 says. The mistake I see men make is they do nit understand God's relation with time, God sets a timeline of 70 weeks of Judgment on Israel, His will was to bring the Kingdom unto Israel in 70 AD, but Israel wouldn't repent, thus Jesus says this in Matt. 23, how many times did I desire to gather you unto myself but YE WOULD NOT, thus the next time you see me you will say Blessed is he who comes in the name of God (Paraphrasing there). 

In other words, Jesus told the Jews 2000 years ago that because they rejected him and God, that God would forsake them, and that when Jesus did return, they were going tom be crying out Blessed is Jesus who is come in the Fathers name !! Because both Zechariah 13 and Malachi 4:5 tells us that is exactly what happens. The Jews (1/3) accept Jesus during the 70th week, this is why the Statue spans a 2500 year period of time, even though Rome was not a power over 1500 years ago, its all about bringing Israel unto repentance via this Statue or via the Beasts. Once God forsook Israel and called on the Gentile Church He deserted Israel until the last 7 years, then after the Rapture the Israel penance is revived, and they must then repent for turning away from God over 2500 years ago. 

That, in general is wat Daniel 2 is about, now we can go over it line by line, but I like to do a broad overture on these subjects first.