CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION IF YOU DON’T ‘Hold Firmly’?

[Waggles]

Hebrews chapter 6 is not about the unbelief of Jews - Hebrews is written to Jews who had converted to Christian discipleship and were wrestling still being under Law and old traditions - akin to the message in Galatians. 

verse 4 is totally applicable to first century Pentecostal Christians not Jews. 

Hebrews 2:1  Therefore we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. 
2:2  For since the message declared by angels proved to be reliable, and every transgression or disobedience received a just retribution, 
2:3  how shall we escape if we neglect such a great salvation? It was declared at first by the Lord, and it was attested to us by those who heard, 
2:4  while God also bore witness by signs and wonders and various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. 

[Waggles]

5 hours ago, Josheb said:

We are saved by grace.

So what happens when those saved by grace walk away from that grace and return back to living in the world?

[Marathoner]

 

3 hours ago, Waggles said:

So what happens when those saved by grace walk away from that grace and return back to living in the world?

 

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Got an example?

I'm not gifted in the manner that our brother Josh is, so I'll answer in the manner which the Lord prepared me for which is this: I'm an example.  

Is this to say that I turned away from grace and returned to the world? No, but in the eyes of men that's precisely what took place. So, according to the judgment of Christian men I fell away from the Lord who chose me and over time I came to believe in their judgment; but they were wrong and because my eyes were fixated upon myself and other men I was mistaken along with them. I fell into the ditch they occupied for a very long time. 

Yep, a bonehead.  

Ah, but isn't this the work of His Spirit? We're all afflicted in such a manner hence we see darkly and know not like we ought to, consumed with ourselves and the petty concerns of this flesh and world. As our brother Josh wrote earlier (I paraphrase), God doesn't abandon us because we're thick-skulled. No, He has mercy upon us instead. 

A little bit of humor. I'll use this example from my experience in Army Basic Training to make a point, not extolling the discipline of men but rather, pointing to the long suffering of the Almighty and His faithfulness to finish the work He started in us. 

Drill and Ceremony training seemed to last forever under the hot sun. Some of my fellows succumbed to the heat and passed out; the drill sergeants were in our faces every moment of the exercise. "Right shoulder, arms!" barked the senior drill sergeant one miserably hot afternoon, and when a number of us fumbled with the command we were ordered to form up on yonder hill with great haste... a rather steep hill, I might add.  

"You WILL learn, privates! I will teach you by the numbers," our senior drill sergeant vowed. He issued the command for us to assume the pushup position facing downhill... ugh. 

"The four count pushup!" the drill sergeant sang out, and so we had to echo his command with all the zeal we could muster. If we didn't, then the exercise might turn into the "six-count pushup" or something more heinous. The drill sergeant signaled the start of our glorious break from D&C. "Ready, exercise!"

(This wasn't actually a four-count pushup, but no one dared say a word) 

One, two, three... WE... WILL... LEARN!
One, two, three... WE... WILL... LEARN!

In this way the Lord is patient with us, refining us like silver is refined in the fire and testing us like gold is tried. We will learn to focus upon Him and Him alone.  

Edited March 16, 2021 by Marathoner

[Waggles]

27 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

In this way the Lord is patient with us, refining us like silver is refined in the fire and testing us like gold is tried. Will will learn to focus upon Him and Him alone.  

Not everybody repents and has contrition. Many stay back in the world and remain there in self denial. 

I know of one Pentecostal Spirit-filled woman who left the faith and lives in a lesbian relationship, claiming that she is happy. 

Not all truly saved Christians remain loyal and steadfast until the end. Saints can and do backslide. 

But according to some she need not worry because she will always be saved. Jesus will not cast her away. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Waggles

[Charlie744]

Great comments and this is why I enjoy this forum so much... and it is free! 

I get to learn about God. Get to learn what others think about God. I get to grow in God. I get to grow with others in God. I get the opportunity to be with these folks WITH God whenever I desire and wherever I am....

Or not!

Just my thoughts, Charlie 

PS. You guys really do sound terrific! 

 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Charlie744

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, Waggles said:

Not everybody repents and has contrition. Many stay back in the world and remain there in self denial. 

I know of one Pentecostal Spirit-filled woman who left the faith and lives in a lesbian relationship, claiming that she is happy. 

Not all truly saved Christians remain loyal and steadfast until the end. Saints can and do backslide. 

But according to some she need not worry because she will always be saved. Jesus will not cast her away. 

According to some.

I'm reminded of those men who judged me in such a way, proof-texting the same verses which I have witnessed here and which many of us are all too familiar with. There is a way which seems right to a man but that way ends in death, brother. 

So here's what I've been sharing whenever a topic such as this one surfaces and what one of those men who judged me witnessed for himself decades later: who are we to judge whether or not an individual is "truly saved?" Has the Lord revealed this to you? The Lord most certainly didn't reveal His will to those who judged me in error but I don't hold any to account. I forgive them, remembering my own shortcomings.  

How do you know if someone is truly saved or not? "The scriptures say this..." is the common retort, but since when does our judgement supplant the will of the Lord who inspired the scriptures? If He does not choose to reveal the secrets of a heart and His will and purpose to a man, then what is the result of judging others according to that way which seems right to a man?

Error, condemnation, and great suffering on the part of those who are so judged. Unless God is pleased to illuminate our heart regarding matters such as these, we should refrain from rendering judgment because every idle word, including verses of scripture men twist to justify their fleshly opinions, will be proven WRONG. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Marathoner

[Jaydub]

On 3/14/2021 at 6:37 PM, Josheb said:

 

@Open7 and @Jaydub, when ALL of scripture is surveyed and understood cohesively we understand that we measure our salvation by God and His attributes, not those of the sinner and we do not subordinate the former to the latter to question the former. You can be assured that if you are actually saved then you will be saved and your "holding firm" is a means of measuring the fruitfulness of that salvation, not its existence. Scripture provides completely different metrics for that. Existence is not quality, nor vice versa, and the two should not be conflated (even though many mistaken or misguided teachers do so).

Could you please repeat that, maybe talking to A 6th grader

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Marathoner said:

How do you know if someone is truly saved or not? "The scriptures say this..." is the common retort, but since when does our judgement supplant the will of the Lord who inspired the scriptures?

That is not what Jesus and the Apostles teach. 

The apostles in their epistles often refer to the confidence that we have in our salvation. And both our Saviour and his apostles preach of one gospel and one faith and one baptism and one body.

Why would I believe anybody who would witness to me about the gospel of salvation if I could not have an assurance that the scriptures that I can read for myself are not true. That the goalposts move for every individual. That there are many gospels. Am I saved? 

There is no need for me to make to depart from evil and to do righteousness if all are saved, including reprobates.

There is always hope for the lesbian who has departed from the faith, but that is up to her. She needs to allow Jesus as the good shepherd to come and rescue her again. But if she continues to quench the Spirit and to continue in unrighteousness then the scriptures judge her; not you nor I. 

1Cor 11:28  But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 
11:29  For he that eats and drinks unworthily, eats and drinks damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 
11:30  For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 
11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 
11:32  But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 

And how do we judge ourselves but by the word of God.

So if those who are called out of the world return back into the world then they shall be condemned with the world. 

Luke 12:45  But if that bondman shall say in his heart, My lord delays his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 
12:46  the lord of that bondman shall come in a day when he expects not, and in an hour when he knows not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the unfaithful. 

Edited March 16, 2021 by Waggles

[Waggles]

Proverbs 10:9  He that walks uprightly walks surely: but he that perverts his ways shall be known.

Prov 10:17  He is in the way of life that keeps instruction: but he that refuses reproof errs.

Prov 10:21  The lips of the righteous feed many: but fools die for want of wisdom.

Prov 17:2  A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causes shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.

[Waggles]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

Still waiting on an example. Can you show me an example in scripture where in God's word actually reports someone doing what you're on about? 

1Cor 1:2  To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

1Cor 5:1  It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that is not tolerated even among pagans, for a man has his father's wife. 
5:2  And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him who has done this be removed from among you. 
5:3  For though absent in body, I am present in spirit; and as if present, I have already pronounced judgment on the one who did such a thing.