Does water baptism precede regeneration?

[Waggles]

5 hours ago, Peterlag said:

When he was circumcised, we were circumcised with him.
(Colossians 2:11)

You are extremely one-eyed when interpreting scripture.

Col 2:11  In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, 
12  having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. 

having been buried with him in baptism, this is a clear unambiguous reference to water baptism by full immersion. Going under the water equates to burial (Romans 6) One is not buried in any sense when baptised in the Holy Spirit. 

[Regenerated-Adult]

I searched for God by practising meditation for over a decade.  Albeit it it was an eastern style meditation practice, yet I was searching for God and praying and asking Him to reveal Himself to me.  Jesus said, "seek and you will find".  God says, "If you seek for me with all your heart you will find Me".  So I did that part of the "deal" so to speak, before God did indeed reveal Himself to me.  Yet, it was in a way that I didn't expect.  I didn't expect to find God by reading the Bible, but that is indeed what happened.  

So after this experience of God, I also woke up from a dream that was about me going to have water baptism somewhere, and the words, "The fruit of the spirit of faith in restitution" which I found odd at the time because I wasn't aware that there was a word "restitution" that even existed.  So I wrote it down upon waking up.  I then discovered that it is a real word and it even has quite a Biblical meaning.  

So I felt God was trying to say to me that I needed to be water baptised so that I would experience the fruit of the spirit (peace and joy etc).  Indeed, my God experience or being "born again" did have the peace of God that passes understanding as a component.  It was the most thrilling fantastic experience or feeling I have ever had in my life.  I want that peace.  I wanted that peace ever since that experience happened, yet it didn't come back ever again - and that was 7 years ago now.  So, fast forward somewhat - and I started getting interested in Calvinism because I could identify a lot with the ideas in it.  I felt that it explained what happened to me very well, that of God's grace intervening in my life outside of my control.  But it wasn't outside of my DESIRE, because as I said above, I was actively SEEKING God before that.  Yet, when He did reveal Himself to me, it did indeed "feel" as if it wasn't in my control.  That somehow, I lost my free will in that moment.  Yet, intellectually, I have always struggled with the idea of not having any free will.  It is obvious to me from my own personal common sense experience that I have free will.  If I didn't have free will, how could I have chosen to seek for God at all, and how could the Bible say that if we seek for Him we will find Him?

Cracks started to appear in the Calvinistic framework or worldview I had almost unconsciously adopted.  But the thing that never ever made sense to me was how a just and loving God could send people to eternal hell whom he had already predetermined would go there, as if they were just puppets and not fleshy, finite, mortal yet loving, compassionate, caring innocent human beings.  Let's be clear: there are good and bad people on this planet and the Bible does say that no-one is righteous, and we have a fallen spiritual nature.  However, logically the above point about sending human puppets to eternal hell clearly does not make even an iota of sense.  It can ONLY make sense, in light of the fact that the Bible does indeed teach that some humans will end up in hell, by allowing for the fact that humans have free will and it is their choice to reject God, thereby ending up in hell.

I struggled with these two issues - free will and eternal hell for human robots - all these years since I was saved, so much so that I almost returned to the Catholic church, which I had been raised in.  I find it very odd indeed that Augustine was obviously supportive of the Catholic church and yet he was the man that brought in the ideas referred to above.  I could never return to Catholicism for numerous reasons that I need not go into, except to say that for me the biggest issue I have with it is infant baptism, which I totally do not agree with.  

A lot of this touches on miracles and Divine revelation and intervention, also.  In the Calvinistic circles I discovered on Youtube and the internet and in books, it seemed that anything like a healing miracle or a vision or a dream from God were either self-deceptions or from the devil at best and that they no longer took place.  The reason I simply cannot embrace this worldview or theological position is because when I was born again it included a full blown VISION!  And by no means was that vision in any way outside of Biblical revelation, but INSIDE it!  

So for all these reasons, I cannot any longer embrace any kind of Calvinistic stance, though I do appreciate the Reformed views of the Holy Spirit and many other things, in fact.  It's just that there's too much that is problematic with Calvinism for me.

Which leads me all the way to the point I wanted to make at the beginning of this post (I know I am long winded).  If my dream of water baptism and the words I "heard" in that dream came from God (and I do not doubt it myself), then it means I shall be using my FREE WILL to go and get water baptised so that I can finally rest in God's peace, joy and presence, which I have stubbornly resisted doing all these years.  It's the only way I can make sense out of all my experiences and beliefs so far.

[Guest clancy]

13 hours ago, Peterlag said:

There is no Scripture that teaches water baptism in the New Testament. Thus, there's nothing to look up.

Hello Peter, can you explain what John 3:5 means please.

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus.

 

Jesus answered .I tell you the truth,no-one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

[Regenerated-Adult]

2 minutes ago, clancy said:

Hello Peter, can you explain what John 3:5 means please.

Jesus was talking to Nicodemus.

 

Jesus answered .I tell you the truth,no-one can enter the Kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit.

This is easy to answer.  After Jesus said you must be born of the water and the spirit he said, "the flesh is born of the flesh and the spirit of the spirit".  It can't get more clearer than that can it?  Do you actually understand what it means?  If you don't, I can't help and I doubt that anybody else could either.  It's as simple as ABC, though some still don't get it.  

And just in case anybody thinks I am alone here, my KJV study Bible affirms the same thing.

[OneLight]

11 hours ago, Peterlag said:

It does not say Paul baptized with water.

When he was circumcised, we were circumcised with him.
(Colossians 2:11)

When he was baptized, we were baptized with him.
(Romans 6:3)

When he was crucified, we were crucified with him.
(Galatians 2:20)

When he died, we died with him.
(Galatians 2:20)

When he was buried, we were buried with him.
(Colossians 2:12)

When he arose, we arose with him.
(Ephesians 2:6)

When he ascended, we ascended with him.
(Ephesians 2:6)

When he sat down, we sat down with him.
(Ephesians 2:6)

Water has nothing to do with it.

I see you ignored the passage I gave you.  Is it because you refuse to accept correction?  Here is it again. 

1 Corinthians 1:14-18

I thank God that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius, lest anyone should say that I had baptized in my own name.  Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas.  Besides, I do not know whether I baptized any other.  For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect.

Only God baptizes with the Holy Spirit, so any other baptism is by water.

[Guest clancy]

13 minutes ago, Regenerated-Adult said:

This is easy to answer.  After Jesus said you must be born of the water and the spirit he said, "the flesh is born of the flesh and the spirit of the spirit".  It can't get more clearer than that can it?  Do you actually understand what it means?  If you don't, I can't help and I doubt that anybody else could either.  It's as simple as ABC, though some still don't get it.  

And just in case anybody thinks I am alone here, my KJV study Bible affirms the same thing.

What is water?  are you saying it’s the flesh?

 

born of water?

Edited February 9, 2021 by clancy

[OneLight]

11 hours ago, Peterlag said:

Philip was an Apostle? Holy Smokes I never saw that before. Well thanks. But it changes nothing. Water means nothing. It probably meant something to the guy that asked for it and Philip did not mind doing it if it blessed the guy. But it means nothing to God. Water went out with the resurrection of Christ.

If it means nothing, why would Jesus tells people to be baptized?  People cannot baptize anyone with the Holy Spirit, only water.  God is the only one who can baptize with the Holy Spirit.  Not sure where you are getting your theology from, but it really needs to be set beside scripture to see if it is true or of man.

[Starise]

Great testimony above  @Regenerated-Adult ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks for sharing it.

11 minutes ago, Regenerated-Adult said:

This is easy to answer.  After Jesus said you must be born of the water and the spirit he said, "the flesh is born of the flesh and the spirit of the spirit".  It can't get more clearer than that can it?  Do you actually understand what it means?  If you don't, I can't help and I doubt that anybody else could either.  It's as simple as ABC, though some still don't get it.  

And just in case anybody thinks I am alone here, my KJV study Bible affirms the same thing.

There is more at play here than simply reading a book. One reason we are told to read the Bible is because God speaks to use through it. Unlike a purely scholastic read. 

The Bible says in 2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

[Regenerated-Adult]

3 minutes ago, clancy said:

What is water?  are you saying it’s the flesh?

 

born of water?

Yes it means he flesh.  When a woman gives birth, water comes out because the baby in the womb is surrounded with amniotic fluids or "water".  When Jesus was dead on the cross and pierced, water came out of him.  So, obviously it does mean the flesh - that's why Jesus went on to elaborate that "the flesh comes from the flesh and the spirit from the spirit."  Why do you find this hard to understand?

[Regenerated-Adult]

2 minutes ago, Starise said:

Great testimony above  @Regenerated-Adult ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Thanks for sharing it.

There is more at play here than simply reading a book. One reason we are told to read the Bible is because God speaks to use through it. Unlike a purely scholastic read. 

The Bible says in 2 Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some men count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Thank you.  

I never meant to suggest that the scriptures are simply just like reading a book.