Joyce Meyers

[Tristen]

8 hours ago, David1701 said:

Maybe you don't consider these false teachings to be heretical; but most knowledgeable Christians do.

If you have a cake with 95% wholesome ingredients and 5% poison, will you eat it?

It's the truths that trap you into accepting the errors.  The most effective counterfeit looks as close to the real thing as possible, without being the real thing.

Really?  Well, it took me about two minutes of searching online, to find her teaching faith as a force.

"Faith is something God gives you that you need to use and release in your life. It’s a powerful force, but it’s not just automatic. You put your trust in God. You put your faith in Him."

https://www.eternitynews.com.au/culture/prosperity-teacher-joyce-meyer-changes-mind-on-suffering/

I see; so, you don't think that denying Christ's victory on the cross is a heresy.  Well Evangelicals, Classic Pentecostals, Lutherans, etc. all do think that it's a heresy; and one of the most serious possible - undermining the cross of Calvary.

The problem is not the teaching that Christ descended into Hades; the problem is that they teach that Satan DEFEATED Christ on the cross and tortured him in hell.  Then the Father allegedly rescued him, because Satan had no legal right to torture him.

Well now, that's strange, because it's one of their common teachings!

This clip from Joyce Meyers took me about 10 seconds to find.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y4eVu2oxP8

It appears that you have a very selective experience (maybe God has been graciously shielding you from some of their more outrageous false teachings).

This is taken grossly out of context and is nothing to do with assessing false teachers, which we are SUPPOSED to do.

None so blind as those who will not see. 

I see you heading for a cliff, so I warn you.  You turn round, while still heading for the cliff and insult me for warning you.

I'm Scottish and, although we are more straightforward than the English (generally speaking) I still have some British indirectness in my approach.

I'll be blunt.  I believe that you are being adversely affected by the WoF teachings.

Or, it could be that the shoe is on the other foot.

“Maybe you don't consider these false teachings to be heretical”

That is correct. I do not see mistakes, errors, or out-of-balance teaching pertaining to non-essential doctrines as “heretical”. God has had to correct me over so many errors since my conversion, that I am more than ready to pay that grace forward.

 

“but most knowledgeable Christians do.”

This is a form of True Scotsman fallacy. It's also an Unsupported Assertion.

 

“If you have a cake with 95% wholesome ingredients and 5% poison, will you eat it?”

Are you claiming that your understanding of doctrine is the only true, undefiled, error-free interpretation of scripture; i.e. 100% “wholesome” and therefore beyond correction?

 

“It's the truths that trap you into accepting the errors. The most effective counterfeit looks as close to the real thing as possible, without being the real thing”

OK – but this is little more than Innuendo.

Again, you are taking a small grouping of data points, and using them to condemn decades worth of ministry.

Is it possible that Joyce Meyer is sincere before God, but given her prolific preaching and writing profile, she occasionally makes mistakes – i.e. 'mistakes' that someone like yourself latches onto to denigrate her motives, and the entirety of her work performed for God?

 

“ Really? Well, it took me about two minutes of searching online, to find her teaching faith as a force.

"Faith is something God gives you that you need to use and release in your life. It’s a powerful force, but it’s not just automatic. You put your trust in God. You put your faith in Him." ”

I have no problem with anything in this quote. It basically says that faith is active, rather than passive. Do you disagree with that? Or maybe you latched onto the word “force” - and decided it means something beyond the obvious.

Nevertheless, I have two objections to your use of this example;

1 - Even if this quote was problematic, you would still be quote-mining from decades worth of teaching. Did you examine the context? Was she really pushing the idea that faith is some kind of naturalistic “force” (as your original comment suggested), or was she simply teaching that faith is something we need to actively apply?

2 – Your original claim (i.e. the one to which I was responding) included teaching that faith is “a force that anyone, whether Christian or otherwise, can use (this is witchcraft, not Christianity)”. The provided quote does not say this in any respect. So your “Really?” comment was either ill-considered or disingenuous.

 

“I see; so, you don't think that denying Christ's victory on the cross is a heresy”

So this is an Equivocation, and a Strawman argument. Being in error about Jesus going to hell after His death is not the same as “denying Christ's victory on the cross”.

I can see how one might relate them, but they are not the same thing.

 

“The problem is not the teaching that Christ descended into Hades”

My point was that 'hell' and 'Hades' are often incorrectly used interchangeably – which contributes to people's confusion about where Jesus was between crucifixion and resurrection.

 

“the problem is that they teach that Satan DEFEATED Christ on the cross and tortured him in hell”

Does Joyce Meyer teach that “Satan DEFEATED Christ on the cross”?

Another common doctrinal error is that demons torture people “in hell”.

 

“ Well now, that's strange, because it's one of their common teachings!

This clip from Joyce Meyers took me about 10 seconds to find”

- I have probably heard hundreds of her sermons and have no specific memory of hearing her teach this. So by what metric are you claiming it to be “one of their common teachings”? Is it like; 'Every time I hear her teach, she carries on about us being “little gods”'? Or is it just more unjustified hyperbole you hoped would slip by me. The clip itself was posted in 2007, but unfortunately does not reference the date of the sermon itself (but safely - at least 12 years old). So exactly how “common” is this teaching in her overall ministry – i.e. if we have to go back 12 years to find an example?

- So you “found” it – did you listen to it? I have no problem with anything she said in this ~5 minute excerpt. To summarise her point; We are made in the image of God, and should therefore be mindful to act as such; including being aware of the power and dominion that God has delegated to those created in His image. She built her point around quoting both Jesus, and then the Psalmist (Asaph);

John 10:34-35 - Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Psalm 82 - God stands in the congregation of the mighty;

He judges among the gods.

2 How long will you judge unjustly,

And show partiality to the wicked? Selah

…

6 I said, “You are gods,

And all of you are children of the Most High.

7 But you shall die like men,

And fall like one of the princes.”

- And yet again, you employ the disingenuous strategy of pretending your evidence supports your claim, when it only supports the innocuous aspect of your claim. Nowhere in this “clip” does Joyce Meyer teach “that we (i.e. Christians) do not have God in us”. It is neither stated, nor implied.

 

“It appears that you have a very selective experience (maybe God has been graciously shielding you from some of their more outrageous false teachings)”

I suppose that is possible. Though it seems unlikely that the Holy Spirit would protect me from their “common”, “outrageous”, “false teachings”, but allow me to grow spiritually under what is supposedly leftover truths amidst all that alleged corruption.

It is more plausible to me that you have developed a false impression based on limited information – and are using that false impression to justify speaking against God's anointed.

 

“This is taken grossly out of context and is nothing to do with assessing false teachers, which we are SUPPOSED to do”

Actually, Romans 14 is talking about how to deal with disagreeing with people over whether or not we are to keep the Sabbaths and dietary rules prescribed under the Law (Christian subjection to the Law arguably does rise to the level of heresy).

And remind me – by what measure are we “SUPPOSED” to be “assessing false teachers”?

 

“None so blind as those who will not see”

I'm happy to consider a rational argument. Empty Innuendo is a logic fallacy – i.e. the opposite of rational argument.

 

“I see you heading for a cliff, so I warn you. You turn round, while still heading for the cliff and insult me for warning you”

Lol. “insult”, “trashed”. Are you really so precious?

Maybe if you'd stick to rational argument instead of emotive retort, I'd be more inclined to heed your “warning”.

 

“I'm Scottish and, although we are more straightforward than the English (generally speaking) I still have some British indirectness in my approach”

Well – I'm Australian (which is largely irrelevant) - and I consider fallacy to be a waste of time in most contexts.

 

“I'll be blunt. I believe that you are being adversely affected by the WoF teachings”

OK – at least that is something I can take to God.

Will you take to God the possibility that you have been enticed into slandering His servants?

 

“Or, it could be that the shoe is on the other foot”

It is common for me to pray that God would open my eyes to protect me from damaging error. I will continue to do so.

 

[Figure of eighty]

On 2/10/2021 at 6:55 PM, Riverwalker said:

She and Joel Osteen strike me as off. They may preach a version of the word, but I am not sure, their motivation is pure. If their aim is to make this life the best you will ever have....then the afterlife is not.

 

Matthew 16:25

For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.

Osteen I understand. I rememeber him saying plainly there were more ways to God besides Jesus but Joyce Meyers seems really solid to me her teachings have helped me as well. Haven't heard her in a while though.

[Whyme]

Why do we need a teacher? We follow Jesus and his apostles (scripture) We have their words and we have each other. We have the Spirit teacher. We even have something other Christians didn't have 2000 years ago, computers and internet for instant communication and we have bible study software.  

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by Whyme

[Justin Adams]

4 hours ago, Tristen said:

“Maybe you don't consider these false teachings to be heretical”

That is correct. I do not see mistakes, errors, or out-of-balance teaching pertaining to non-essential doctrines as “heretical”. God has had to correct me over so many errors since my conversion, that I am more than ready to pay that grace forward.

 

“but most knowledgeable Christians do.”

This is a form of True Scotsman fallacy. It's also an Unsupported Assertion.

 

“If you have a cake with 95% wholesome ingredients and 5% poison, will you eat it?”

Are you claiming that your understanding of doctrine is the only true, undefiled, error-free interpretation of scripture; i.e. 100% “wholesome” and therefore beyond correction?

 

“It's the truths that trap you into accepting the errors. The most effective counterfeit looks as close to the real thing as possible, without being the real thing”

OK – but this is little more than Innuendo.

Again, you are taking a small grouping of data points, and using them to condemn decades worth of ministry.

Is it possible that Joyce Meyer is sincere before God, but given her prolific preaching and writing profile, she occasionally makes mistakes – i.e. 'mistakes' that someone like yourself latches onto to denigrate her motives, and the entirety of her work performed for God?

 

“ Really? Well, it took me about two minutes of searching online, to find her teaching faith as a force.

"Faith is something God gives you that you need to use and release in your life. It’s a powerful force, but it’s not just automatic. You put your trust in God. You put your faith in Him." ”

I have no problem with anything in this quote. It basically says that faith is active, rather than passive. Do you disagree with that? Or maybe you latched onto the word “force” - and decided it means something beyond the obvious.

Nevertheless, I have two objections to your use of this example;

1 - Even if this quote was problematic, you would still be quote-mining from decades worth of teaching. Did you examine the context? Was she really pushing the idea that faith is some kind of naturalistic “force” (as your original comment suggested), or was she simply teaching that faith is something we need to actively apply?

2 – Your original claim (i.e. the one to which I was responding) included teaching that faith is “a force that anyone, whether Christian or otherwise, can use (this is witchcraft, not Christianity)”. The provided quote does not say this in any respect. So your “Really?” comment was either ill-considered or disingenuous.

 

“I see; so, you don't think that denying Christ's victory on the cross is a heresy”

So this is an Equivocation, and a Strawman argument. Being in error about Jesus going to hell after His death is not the same as “denying Christ's victory on the cross”.

I can see how one might relate them, but they are not the same thing.

 

“The problem is not the teaching that Christ descended into Hades”

My point was that 'hell' and 'Hades' are often incorrectly used interchangeably – which contributes to people's confusion about where Jesus was between crucifixion and resurrection.

 

“the problem is that they teach that Satan DEFEATED Christ on the cross and tortured him in hell”

Does Joyce Meyer teach that “Satan DEFEATED Christ on the cross”?

Another common doctrinal error is that demons torture people “in hell”.

 

“ Well now, that's strange, because it's one of their common teachings!

This clip from Joyce Meyers took me about 10 seconds to find”

- I have probably heard hundreds of her sermons and have no specific memory of hearing her teach this. So by what metric are you claiming it to be “one of their common teachings”? Is it like; 'Every time I hear her teach, she carries on about us being “little gods”'? Or is it just more unjustified hyperbole you hoped would slip by me. The clip itself was posted in 2007, but unfortunately does not reference the date of the sermon itself (but safely - at least 12 years old). So exactly how “common” is this teaching in her overall ministry – i.e. if we have to go back 12 years to find an example?

- So you “found” it – did you listen to it? I have no problem with anything she said in this ~5 minute excerpt. To summarise her point; We are made in the image of God, and should therefore be mindful to act as such; including being aware of the power and dominion that God has delegated to those created in His image. She built her point around quoting both Jesus, and then the Psalmist (Asaph);

John 10:34-35 - Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods” ’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),

Psalm 82 - God stands in the congregation of the mighty;

He judges among the gods.

2 How long will you judge unjustly,

And show partiality to the wicked? Selah

…

6 I said, “You are gods,

And all of you are children of the Most High.

7 But you shall die like men,

And fall like one of the princes.”

- And yet again, you employ the disingenuous strategy of pretending your evidence supports your claim, when it only supports the innocuous aspect of your claim. Nowhere in this “clip” does Joyce Meyer teach “that we (i.e. Christians) do not have God in us”. It is neither stated, nor implied.

 

“It appears that you have a very selective experience (maybe God has been graciously shielding you from some of their more outrageous false teachings)”

I suppose that is possible. Though it seems unlikely that the Holy Spirit would protect me from their “common”, “outrageous”, “false teachings”, but allow me to grow spiritually under what is supposedly leftover truths amidst all that alleged corruption.

It is more plausible to me that you have developed a false impression based on limited information – and are using that false impression to justify speaking against God's anointed.

 

“This is taken grossly out of context and is nothing to do with assessing false teachers, which we are SUPPOSED to do”

Actually, Romans 14 is talking about how to deal with disagreeing with people over whether or not we are to keep the Sabbaths and dietary rules prescribed under the Law (Christian subjection to the Law arguably does rise to the level of heresy).

And remind me – by what measure are we “SUPPOSED” to be “assessing false teachers”?

 

“None so blind as those who will not see”

I'm happy to consider a rational argument. Empty Innuendo is a logic fallacy – i.e. the opposite of rational argument.

 

“I see you heading for a cliff, so I warn you. You turn round, while still heading for the cliff and insult me for warning you”

Lol. “insult”, “trashed”. Are you really so precious?

Maybe if you'd stick to rational argument instead of emotive retort, I'd be more inclined to heed your “warning”.

 

“I'm Scottish and, although we are more straightforward than the English (generally speaking) I still have some British indirectness in my approach”

Well – I'm Australian (which is largely irrelevant) - and I consider fallacy to be a waste of time in most contexts.

 

“I'll be blunt. I believe that you are being adversely affected by the WoF teachings”

OK – at least that is something I can take to God.

Will you take to God the possibility that you have been enticed into slandering His servants?

 

“Or, it could be that the shoe is on the other foot”

It is common for me to pray that God would open my eyes to protect me from damaging error. I will continue to do so.

 

Brilliant. Thanks!!

[Justin Adams]

To those of us that are fairly toothless, we have learned to pick the meat off the bones and not get overly concerned with skeletons. Most folk's closets are a jumbled mass of those remains and in the closet they should remain.

Being reminded of one's own foibles and fallacies should be sufficient to keep us humble and we ought to take great care when 'internet quoting' of the many people that make it their life's work to denigrate others.

[steve morrow]

JUDGING  AND  THE  TRUTH  OF  GODS  WORD

TEACH  ALL  THE  WORDS  OF  THIS  LIFE  

 

ROMANS 15:14  and I myself also am persuaded of you my brethren that you also are full of goodness filled with --ALL  KNOWLEDGE--able also to --ADMONISH--one another  -----???

JAMES 5:19  brethren if any of you do err from the truth and one convert him --5:20-- let him know that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death and shall hide a multitude of sins 

 

               **************************************************

1 CORINTHIANS  5:11  BUT  NOW  HAVE  I  WRITTEN  UNTO  YOU  ---NOT  TO  KEEP  COMPANY--- IF  ANY  MAN  THAT  IS  CALLED  A  BROTHER  BE  A  FORNICATOR  OR  COVETOUS OR  AN  IDOLATER  OR  A  RAILER  OR  A  DRUNKARD  OR  AN  EXTORTIONER ---WITH  SUCH  AN  ONE  DO  NOT  EAT

--5:12-- FOR  WHAT  HAVE  I  TO  DO  TO  JUDGE  THEM  ALSO  THAT  ARE  WITHOUT  --- DO  NOT  YOU  JUDGE  THEM  THAT  ARE  WITHIN 

--5:13-- BUT  THEM  THAT  ARE  WITHOUT  --GOD  JUDGETH-- THEREFORE  PUT  AWAY  FROM  AMONG  YOURSELVES  THAT  WICKED  PERSON

               **************************************************

1 COINTHIANS  6:1  DARE  ANY  OF  YOU  HAVING  A  MATTER  AGAINST  ANOTHER  GO  TO  LAW  BEFORE  THE  UNJUST  AND  NOT  BEFORE  THE  SAINTS 

--6:2-- DO  YOU  NOT  KNOW  THAT  THE  SAINTS  SHALL  JUDGE  THE  WORLD  AND  IF  THE  WORLD  SHALL  BE  JUDGED  BY  YOU  ARE  UNWORTHY  TO  JUDGE  THE  SMALLEST  MATTERS 

--6:3-- KNOW  YOU  NOT  THAT  WE  SHALL  JUDGE  ANGELS  HOW  MUCH  MORE  THINGS  THAT  PERTAIN  TO  THIS  LIFE 

--6:4-- IF  THEN  YOU  HAVE  JUDGEMENTS  OF  THINGS  PERTAINING  TO  THIS  LIFE  SET  THEM  TO  JUDGE  WHO  ARE  LEAST  ESTEEMED  IN  THE  CHURCH 

--6:5-- I SPEAK  TO  YOUR  SHAME  IS  IT  SO  THAT  THERE  IS  NOT  A  WISE  MAN  AMONG  YOU  NO  NOT  ONE  THAT  SHALL  BE  ABLE  TO  JUDGE  BETWEEN  HIS  BRETHREN 

               ************************************************** 

JOHN 7:24  judge  not  according  to  the  appearance  but  judge  righteous  judgement

 

JOHN 12:47  and if any man hear  MY  WORDS  and believe not I judge him not for I came not to judge the world but to save the world 

--12:48-- he that --REJECTETH  ME--  and receiveth not  MY  WORDS  hath  one that that judgeth him the word that  I  have spoken the same shall judge him ---IN  THE  LAST  DAY

 

*****PROVERBS 27:5  OPEN  REBUKE  IS  BETTER  THAN  SECRET  LOVE*****

 

PROVERBS 15:31  the ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise 

--15:32-- he that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding 

 

ACTS 5:29  THEN  PETER  AND  THE  OTHER  APOSTLES  ANSWERED  AND  SAID  WE  OUGHT  TO  OBEY  GOD  RATHER  THAN  MEN

 

LOVING  THE  LORD  JESUS  CHRIST

[Starise]

The OT was asking us here what we think about JM. 

I won't guess here as to why the question was asked. Usually questions are asked for answers but not always. I'm going to keep it simple and at face value and simply say they asked because they wanted to know with no regard for an expected outcome. All I know is @clancy wanted to know what we all think about JM.

So it should come as no great surprise when you actually get opinions. I don't see how you can disagree with something you asked for?If you already had strong opinions why would you be asking for ours? Everyone here has simply complied with your request. I feel some here were put in the doghouse for having an opinion?

A few things Christians are clearly told to do in the Bible. We are told to study and to try the spirits. WE are told to know how to recognize false teachers. In fact if we don't do this we are failing. Any responsible Christian will be diligent to look at ALL teaching they come across.

Back to JM. Can we say a brother is at fault for looking at her or any other teacher who claims to teach the gospel according to the Bible? How can we say we are judging those people when this is a RESPONSIBILITY for the christian?

The whole purpose of the scriptures that tell us to be wary of false teachers isn't so we can stand above them with our fingers pointed as if we were morally better because we caught them at something they should not have said or done, no. The REASON we are careful is because we could be mislead to believe something that clearly isn't true.So YES we look at ALL of them VERY closely.

I don't think a consistent false teaching is the same thing as a pastor who occasionally said something they really didn't mean or didn't know about. I have seen a few of those uncomfortable times in churches where the pastor has to back pedal on something he said because it "came out the wrong way". This is ENTIRELY different than a person who prints books, continues to repeat statements that solidify and further confirm that what they said was NOT accidental. People who supposedly "repent" and yet continue on doing much the same things. I don't think it is in any way wrong to question such people. 

 

 

[existential mabel]

https://broadoakpiety.org/2019/01/17/exposing-false-teachers-no-1-joyce-meyer/

i noticed this was already submitted.

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by existential mabel

[existential mabel]

transcript from ; from a video; Joyce Meyer is a False preacher exposing her false gospel teachings

 

 

Quote

 

what does she say and teach

07:51

 

 

that's of concern

07:52

well one Jesus did not atone for our

07:57

sins on the cross there was more that he

08:01

had to do Jesus not only did that there

08:03

but he had to go to hell and suffer and

08:06

die as a man become literally sin take

08:12

our full punishment in hell to pay for

08:15

our debt of sin

quote when Jesus

08:31

entered hell and became sin he then was

08:35

no longer the Son of God when he became

08:40

man and became sin in hell he was no

08:45

longer the Son of God

 

she says this in even more detail in her own words on her own video releases

[1to3]

I can only speak for myself and my ongoing relationship with Christ Jesus.

Many false teachers exist.

And as it has been said by Starise:

"A few things Christians are clearly told to do in the Bible. We are told to study and to try the spirits. WE are told to know how to recognize false teachers. In fact if we don't do this we are failing. Any responsible Christian will be diligent to look at ALL teaching they come across."

If I am allowed to speak of my own experience, yes I too once licensed to Joyce Meyers in my very early walk back to Christ Jesus, as she was easily found on the radio and t.v. at the time, until I began to see certain inconsistencies.

They have been addressed and mentioned here in this thread.

The same goes with any ministry.

If it does not align with God Word complete, leave it lest you be further deceived.

I also  have been deceived , and have for awhile been caught up in some things :people, places, things, ministries... that eventually the Holy Spirit guided me to SEE that message delivered in these,  was NOT aligning up with HIS WORD, no matter how well prepared, or intelligent the message be conveyed.

A few years back I really liked the message of a Jewish man - who claimed to be a christian, mentioned scripture and used Christ Jesus a lot in his message. This man in particular had great common sense wisdom of the human condition, and just licensing to some of what he had to say about the human condition, helped me a lot to find forgiveness in people as well as in myself. That was a good thing, I also learned through his teachings on the human condition, not to get caught up with people, but I always remained skeptical on a few things he would mention, yet chose to try and just keep the good and discard the rest, until I once I learned for sure, that this man did not believe in the TRINITY of God the FATHER , SON, Holy Spirit, that was my breaking point for me to listen to him, I stopped listening to him.

The same goes with any thing we may get caught up in.

It may look good, sound good but is it truly authentic aligning fully to Gods WORD?

"all that glitters is not true gold".

That is what we should pray about and ask God to speak to our hearts and warn us if we are being deceived.

Its not easy to accept being told by another that we may be deceived by a certain ministry or other,( especially if we are caught up in the deception) but if we take heed and investigate for ourselves and ask God to give us discernment concerning a particular ---- He will show us.

Proverbs 3:5-6

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And lean not on your own understanding;
⁶ In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He shall direct your paths.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 19, 2021 by 1to3