Protestant? Catholic? Confused...

[Jayne]

This has been a heated debate for so long and it will not be addressed to your satisfaction here.

All I can say is this.

• It is not Protestant TRADITION that denies the papacy and Peter's foundation of it.  It is scripture - not tradition.  Peter and other sinful men cannot be the sole and faultless voice of God - well, BECAUSE they are sinful. Too many Catholic people [not all, of course] never read the Bible because they believe that only the Pope can interpret holy scripture and whatever he says is infallible.  Mortal men are not infallible.  Not Billy Graham, not Peter, not the Pope [any of them], and not you nor  I.

 

• The ROCK where upon the church is established is NOT Peter.  It's Jesus Christ.  Jesus did not say, "I will build my church upon, you, Peter.  He said, "You are a Peter [petros] and I will build my church upon THIS rock [petras].  At the end of the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus said, "Therefore whosoever heares these sayings of mine, and doea them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock. [petras].

 

• THIS rock is Jesus:  Romans 9:33 = "They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,  as it is written, 'Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone of stumbling, and a rock [petras] of offense; and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.'"

 

• THIS rock is Jesus:  1 Corinthians 10:4 = "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock [petras] that followed them: and that Rock was Christ."

 

• There can only be ONE rock that the church is founded on and it is not a man - not a sinful,  mortal man.  The Pope today accepts homosexuality - how can be the infallible  voice of God and the ONLY one who can interpret the Bible?

 

• Peter was Peter's name before he even met Jesus. Jesus was saying "Your name is "petros" [stone] and upon THIS [petras] I will build my church.  In no way, shape, or form was Jesus creating a papacy.

 

• God, himself, is referred to as the "rock" over and over and over in the Psalms.  Jesus IS God.  How can mortal man be THE rock?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 11, 2021 by Jayne

[Guest]

47 minutes ago, LearningToLetGo said:

Peter is the rock. 

Jesus is the "Rock."

[LearningToLetGo]

24 minutes ago, Jayne said:

Peter was Peter's name before he even met Jesus. Jesus was saying "Your name is "petros" [stone] and upon THIS [petras] I will build my church.  In no way, shape, or form was Jesus creating a papacy.

The word for "rock" shifted from masculine to feminine in this sentence. That's not obvious in a language like English. This does add a new dimension.

[OneLight]

1 hour ago, LearningToLetGo said:

Peter is the rock. 

That's the problem when you snip apart the whole conversation, you get false understandings.  Look up Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; Luke 20:17; Acts 4:11; Ephesians 2:20 and 1 Peter 2:7.   Notice who the cornerstone is in these verses.  Now, look back on the whole conversation in Matthew 16:13-20 and you will see who the rock truly is, it is Jesus, as Peter said in verse 16.  That statement is the rock which Peter is to build the church, the truth.  It is not Peter himself.  We would then need to worship Peter if what you say is true.

[LearningToLetGo]

If Jesus is saying that He is the rock then what's the point of the "Peter" and "rock" wordplay then?

Also, how does Matthew 16:19 fit in?

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Specifically, how does "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" apply?

 

[Riverwalker]

9 minutes ago, LearningToLetGo said:

If Jesus is saying that He is the rock then what's the point of the "Peter" and "rock" wordplay then?

Also, how does Matthew 16:19 fit in?

"And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Specifically, how does "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" apply?

 

Peter was indeed the rock, that is not in question. Whether God intended him to be the first pope, or that there should be any popes, is the question.  It was Peter's revelation that Jesus is the Christ, which is important

[Starise]

Another way to see it is Jesus is the chief cornerstone. The stone the builders rejected. The cornerstone was the anchoring point in the wall. 

We are all chips off the main rock or little stones. God has been using men as his building blocks for thousands of years, so it is no great mystery to be referred to as a stone.Peter was only one among many and surely there was nothing more or nothing less indicated.

Scriptures interpret other scriptures. Any study of the cornerstone and building always brings up Christ who is the the "chief" cornerstone. If there is a cornerstone, there have to be other stones to build the wall or the whole story makes no sense. Who are these stones? Us.

[Waggles]

2 hours ago, LearningToLetGo said:

Martin Luther clearly broke from the church

NO - Luther broke away from Rome, from the Papacy. 

The church of scripture is not the church of Rome. 

[Riverwalker]

3 minutes ago, Starise said:

Another way to see it is Jesus is the chief cornerstone. The stone the builders rejected. The cornerstone was the anchoring point in the wall. 

We are all chips off the main rock or little stones. God has been using men as his building blocks for thousands of years, so it is no great mystery to be referred to as a stone.Peter was only one among many and surely there was nothing more or nothing less indicated.

 

So Just a chip off the old (eternal block eh?  I'll take it

[Waggles]

2 hours ago, LearningToLetGo said:

Are you saying this is a double entendre, and although he is addressing his words to Peter he is actually speaking to the demons in Hell?

Yes

Matt 17:1  And after six days Jesus took with him Peter and James, and John his brother, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 
2  And he was transfigured before them, and his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became white as light. 
3  And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him. 

also in Mark 9 and in Luke 9

Mat 16:13  Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”

Caesarea Philippi  is at the base of Mount Hermon in the northern region given to Dan. It was both a most pagan worship site due to the flowing springs that fed the Jordan River, but also Mount Hermon was regarded as where those angels that transgressed came down upon and also where the gates to the underworld were located. 

Bible scholars have written that the transfiguration also occurred on Mount Hermon. Which makes spiritual sense as Jesus came to vanquish the power and rule of the satan and devils. 

This would be the right place for Jesus the son of the Most high God to confront fallen angels.

Edited February 11, 2021 by Waggles