Can God Lie or Instruct Someone to Lie on His Behalf?

[AnOrangeCat]

3 minutes ago, enoob57 said:

So what we see is God allowing evil to take evil to evil so that judgment will come to as the fruit of itself...

I feel like this and God allowing us to be tested are at the heart of it. The Book of Job is very much a case of the latter. Looking at the Old Testament we also see God sending an "evil spirit" to Saul to torment him, which seems out of character with the nature of God as described in the Bible just as the lying spirit does. Looking at Saul's behavior he was certainly inviting it on himself. So my take is that when the Bible speaks about God "sending" these things it's more that He allows it for His purposes.

[Deborah_]

I Kings 22

 

Ahab, the apostate king of Israel, wanted to go to war. He had made an alliance with Jehoshaphat king of Judah, who was therefore obliged to support him. Jehoshaphat did however remind him that, because both Israel and Judah were God’s people, they should not wage war without God’s guidance.

 

Ahab was not in the habit of consulting God before making decisions, but 400 prophets duly appeared. These were not prophets of Baal but (nominally, at least) prophets of Yahweh. But the source of inspiration for their prophesying was dubious (they did not use Yahweh’s name but the generic title ‘Lord’) (verse 6), and their message sounded too conveniently like what Ahab wanted to hear. Jehoshaphat’s suspicions were aroused, and he asked for a second opinion. But there was only one other prophet that Ahab could consult: Micaiah.

 

The 400 prophets then realised that they had to raise their game, so they began claiming to speak in Yahweh’s name and even acting out their message (verses 10-12). Meanwhile, Micaiah was being advised to fall in line with them and tell the king what he wanted to hear (verse 13). When the ‘experts’ all agree, it takes great courage to disturb the harmony!  But consensus is not necessarily the same as truth. To live prophetically means to be tuned in to the Spirit - and, if necessary, to speak out against the majority view.

 

Micaiah’s initial words agreed with those of the other prophets; but in some way he made it obvious that he didn’t really mean what he was saying. When Ahab insisted that he wanted to hear the truth, Micaiah declared in no uncertain terms that the attack would fail and that Ahab would be killed. But Ahab’s response to this prophecy was to dismiss it as the product of personal animosity (verse 18)!

 

But Micaiah had not finished. Ahab and Jehoshaphat were sitting in state (verse 10) and making plans; but Yahweh, Israel’s true King, was sitting in state in the heavenly places (verse 19) - and it is His plans that are put into effect. He had decreed that Ahab should die in battle, and He had decided to bring that about by means of a false prophecy. “The LORD has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.” (verse 23)

 

Christians naturally struggle with this statement. Does the God of truth really set out to deceive anyone? But part of His judgement on sinful human beings is to give us what we want. Ahab had surrounded himself with flattering advisers and tame yes-men; he wasn’t really interested in hearing the truth (he punished Micaiah for speaking it!), only in getting his own way. And in the end, he had been given both the truth and the falsehood; which message would he choose to believe?

 

In the end, Ahab tried to hedge his bets: he went into battle, but in disguise, while persuading Jehoshaphat to set himself up as a decoy! But this attempt to frustrate God’s declared will was a complete failure. Despite all his precautions, he was wounded by a ‘chance’ arrow; and because he was determined to stay upright in his chariot (in order to watch the progress of the battle), he slowly bled to death.

 

Can we defy God’s will? If we are determined to go our own way, He will let us; but we can escape neither the consequences of our decisions nor the fulfilment of His word.

[Frits]

Where is God?
Answer: High above all creatures in His heavenly Kingdom.

Where is the Lord Jesus?
Answer: High above all creatures, by His Father, in His heavenly Kingdom.

Where's the devil?
Answer: In his own heavenly kingdom, of sin, falsehood, iniquity, and violence.

So in the present (old) heavens there are two focal points: The Kingdom of God, and the kingdom of the devil.
There is the Light of God, and there is darkness of Satan.  There is righteousness and life, and there is sin and death.

God has made His own choice.  He saw that the light was good and He separated light from darkness. (Gen.1:4)
The angel Lucifer also made his own choice and became satan. (Isa.14:14, Jude 1:6)

We cannot attribute the choices and decisions of God, to the devil.
Just as we cannot hold God responsible, for what the devil causes and does.

For the religious person who looks 'up' from the earth, everything that comes from the heaven, from God.

But only the born again and Holy Ghost baptized Christian has discernment of spirits, to see that only the good and acceptable comes from the Father of lights.

Jac 1:17 KJV Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

[The_Patriot21]

God has never lied...however there have been examples of people lying for him, think of Rahab in Jericho for instance....

[R. Hartono]

On 2/12/2021 at 3:33 AM, Uber Genius said:

God cannot lie.

"19God is not a man, that He should lie, or a son of man, that He should change His mind. Does He speakand not act? Does He promise and not fulfill?"

Numbers 23:19

God sends a lying spirit.

"20and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said one thing, and another said another.21Then a spirit came forward and stood before the LORD, saying, ‘I will entice him.’22And the LORD said to him, ‘By what means?’ And he said, ‘I will go out, and will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And he said, ‘You are to entice him, and you shall succeed; go out and do so.’ 23Now therefore behold, the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets; the LORD has declared disaster for you.”

1 Kings 22:20-23

So God can't lie but he can use agents to lie? 

Note: I'm looking for thoughtful discussion here, not cutting and pasting someone else's thoughtful discussion. Although that method can be helpful I could do that myself if that was all I was interested in finding out.

 

God cud use everything for punishment of unGodly  people including nations like Assyrians n Babylon n Rome to even kill those who worship Baal, Astaroth, Moloch or consult medium spirit like those Hebrew did.

[other one]

On 2/12/2021 at 12:23 AM, Michael37 said:

Heavenly Hose . . .from which we get rain perhaps. 

so, you are one of those spelling Nazi's.   Bummer.  

[Uber Genius]

On 2/11/2021 at 8:48 PM, BK1110 said:

As R.C. Sproul said, there are no rogue molecules. God is in control of absolutely everyone and everything. Total sovereignty

Manichaeism? Seems like we can break that statement into premises and produce contradictions.

p1 God controls absolutely everyone and everything

p2 Hitler is a member of the class of ereryone 

p2 the holocaust was a member of the class everything

A1 therefore God controlled Hitler and the holocaust

p3 the holocaust was evil.

A2 therefore God controls or is the author and creator of evil!

 

your formula for total sovereignty does so at the cost of a all-loving, all-good being.

Augustine argued against Manichaeism for 10 years before being the first Church Father to deny human free will and replicate the core teaching on Manechaeism both in aspects of man's complete bondage to his will (determinism), lack of free will, God control of everything. Augustine Fathers this Augustinian/Calvinist belief that would later dominate Reformed thinking, and modern day Presbyterian, Reformed, and some portions of Southern Baptist thinking. But why believe it is true?

it seems to make God into a moral monster and man to puppets or marionettes.

[BK1110]

I don't know that I could give you a fully-satisfactory answer. I'm not God after all. But the Bible seems to clearly teach both that God is utterly and completely sovereign over every single atom and thing and soul in and out of the universe, and that we all have free will and are accountable for our actions and thoughts. I suppose we'll understand that more fully one day!

[Uber Genius]

On 2/11/2021 at 7:47 PM, Jayne said:

God isn't advancing or encouraging lying.  He is simply making use of a lying spirit as that is the only thing King Ahab responds to.

God is sovereign over everything.  Angels, demons, evil spirits, good spirits - all of it.  And that lying spirit - already evil on its own will perish forever just Ahab.

Thanks for your response. I agree with your first sentence. I used to say to my children, "I don't want you to model your behavior after what I'm about to do."

However, the problem has to do the absolute nature of the God can lie claim and here we do have a conflict, he uses an agent to lie. Secondly, the lying spirit is a member of God's heavenly host, not evil. Also known as the divine council we see in psalm 82 & 89. So the lying spirit is not judged but actually will be rewarded for devising and executing a plan that successfully brings about God's judgement.

[Justin Adams]

4 minutes ago, Uber Genius said:

Thanks for your response. I agree with your first sentence. I used to say to my children, "I don't want you to model your behavior after what I'm about to do."

However, the problem has to do the absolute nature of the God can lie claim and here we do have a conflict, he uses an agent to lie. Secondly, the lying spirit is a member of God's heavenly host, not evil. Also known as the divine council we see in psalm 82 & 89. So the lying spirit is not judged but actually will be rewarded for devising and executing a plan that successfully brings about God's judgement.

God decided Ahab had to die. It is entirely up to Him as to how this is effected. God is by nature Good and Sovereign. I have not a single iota of a problem with this. Why? Because I trust His judgement implicitly.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Justin Adams