Rapture questions

[R. Hartono]

11 hours ago, WailingWall said:

Ok Hartono, you claim the Saints that were raptured are the great multitude found in Rev.7. 

REV.7 [1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the FOUR WINDS of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel....... [9] After this I beheld, and, lo, A GREAT MULTITUDE, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, STOOD BEFORE THE THRONE, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

The prophecy of the 4 winds {Rev.7 v1}– A one time event.

EZEK.37 [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the FOUR WINDS, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, AN EXCEEDING GREAT ARMY.[11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.[12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL.[13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,[14] And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Zeke 37 is also talking about the prophecy of the 4 winds – The dead in Christ rise 1st {1Cor.15} {Zeke 37v12} This is the 1st resurrection – But look at Zeke 37{v 12} They are brought to Israel and not to heaven as the Rapturist claim –  
 

Ezekiel 37 speaks abt Hebrew captivity in Babylon n Jerusalem surrendered under Babylon's control n paid tribute. It was described allegorically as revived skulls n hv been fulfilled n restored when Babylon was defeated by Cyrus n the Hebrew returned to their freedom in Judea n repair the temple.

Edited February 16, 2021 by R. Hartono

[WailingWall]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:36 PM, missmuffet said:

The rapture is to be distinguished from the second coming. At the rapture, the Lord comes “in the clouds” to meet us “in the air” (1 Thessalonians 4:17). At the second coming, the Lord descends all the way to the earth to stand on the Mount of Olives, resulting in a great earthquake followed by a defeat of God’s enemies (Zechariah 14:3–4).
 

ACTS 1  [9] And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, HE WAS TAKEN UP; AND A CLOUD RECEIVED HIM out of their sight. [10] And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; [11] Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same JESUS, WHICH IS TAKEN UP FROM YOU INTO HEAVEN, SHALL SO COME IN LIKE MANNER as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Jesus was taken up in a cloud and will return in a cloud. Sure does look like Hes coming only once “in a cloud”.

REVELATION 1  [7] Behold, he cometh WITH CLOUDS; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of THE EARTH SHALL WAIL because of him. Even so, Amen.

When He returns in a cloud the earthlings are gonna wail. Why wail? Are they wailing because theyve been raptured to heaven? No way.

MARK 13  [24] But in those days, AFTER THAT TRIBULATION, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, [25] And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. [26] And then shall they see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN THE CLOUDS with great power and glory.

Jesus returns in the clouds AFTER the tribulation period......

ZEPHANIAH 1  [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, A DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness,

On the “Day of the Lord”

1 THESSALONIANS 4  [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For THE LORD HIMSELF SHALL DESCEND FROM HEAVEN with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD.

After we are caught up and meet Him in the clouds.......

DANIEL 7  [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like THE SON OF MAN CAME WITH THE CLOUDS of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, AND A KINGDOM, THAT ALL PEOPLE, NATIONS, AND LANGUAGES, SHOULD SERVE HIM: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and HIS KINGDOM THAT WHICH SHALL NOT BE DESTROYED.

Its off to the Kingdom {the 1000 yr period of rest}. 

AND SO SHALL WE EVER BE WITH THE LORD
 

[WailingWall]

11 hours ago, Revelation Man said:

Likewise, the reason you are confused on "THE GREAT TRIBULATION" in Rev. 7 is you are not THINKING it through brother. I will lay out all the options for you, then you can add up the numbers which are really just simple math.

Those seen in Rev. 7:1-8 are the Jews who are fleeing Judea, the 144,000 is just a Metaphor for ALL Israel who repent, the number 10 = completeness the number  12 = fulness. Thus 12 (Fulness) x 12 x 10 (Completeness) x 10 x 10 is just God's saying this is ALL Israel who repent, and via Zechariah 13:8-9 

 

Im confused???  YIKES!

[R. Hartono]

 

[Omegaman 3.0]

On 2/14/2021 at 1:33 PM, missmuffet said:

The rapture of the Church and the second coming of Christ are two separate events:

seperate yes, one is going up, the other coming down, perhaps only seperated in time my moments, maybe in the twinkling of an eye, however long that takes!

[missmuffet]

11 hours ago, Omegaman 3.0 said:

seperate yes, one is going up, the other coming down, perhaps only seperated in time my moments, maybe in the twinkling of an eye, however long that takes!

Suit yourself Omega.

[WailingWall]

My next question. Who do you say is the Bride of Christ?

JEREMIAH 3  [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates  twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says. We see who the bible calls the Bride. Who do you claim is the Bride?

[WilliamL]

On 2/11/2021 at 2:35 PM, WailingWall said:

I wanted to ask a few simple questions about the rapture theory. What ive found in scripture is no wheres near what i hear from the Rapturist. Ive found that when we are changed in the twinkling of an eye, we are not going to heaven but are going to the kingdom, the thousand year period of rest, right here on this earth. The changing {rapture} takes place on the Day of the Lord, after the tribulation period. Are there any scriptures that say we are going to heaven at the time of the changing?

This one is as clear as can be, in its context. Paul here is comparing the coming of Israel unto Mount Sinai with the End Times' coming of the Church to heavenly Mount Zion:

Hebrews 12:22 But you are come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect...

This is where the Church is to go in the Rapture. This the the fulfillment of the Last Trump/Shofar of judgment, being compared to the judgment of the First Shofar at Mount Sinai. Explained in my blog post here:

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

[WailingWall]

On 2/24/2021 at 2:43 PM, WilliamL said:

This one is as clear as can be, in its context. Paul here is comparing the coming of Israel unto Mount Sinai with the End Times' coming of the Church to heavenly Mount Zion:

Hebrews 12:22 But you are come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem,......

Are you saying Mount Zion and the heavenly Jerusalem are 2 different places?

[The Light]

On 2/23/2021 at 5:45 AM, WailingWall said:

My next question. Who do you say is the Bride of Christ?

JEREMIAH 3  [20] SURELY AS A WIFE TREACHEROUSLY DEPARTETH FROM HER HUSBAND, SO HAVE YE DEALT TREACHEROUSLY WITH ME, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL, SAITH THE LORD. [21] A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God. [22] Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings. Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.

Israel is the bride

JEREMIAH 2 [31] O generation, see ye the word of the Lord. Have I been A WILDERNESS UNTO ISRAEL? a land of darkness? wherefore say my people, We are lords; we will come no more unto thee? [32] Can a maid forget her ornaments, OR A BRIDE HER ATTIRE? yet my people have forgotten me days without number.

Israel the bride

JEREMIAH 3 [11] And the LORD said unto me, THE BACKSLIDING ISRAEL hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.[12] Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.[13] Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.[14] TURN, O BACKSLIDING CHILDREN, SAITH THE LORD; FOR I AM MARRIED UNTO YOU: AND I WILL TAKE YOU ONE OF A CITY, AND TWO OF A FAMILY, AND I WILL BRING YOU TO ZION:

Backsliding Israel. I am married unto you. Israel is the bride. I will take you one of a city, and two of a family. Sound familiar?

LUKE 17 [33] Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. [34] I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER SHALL BE LEFT. [35] Two women shall be grinding together; THE ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT. [36] Two men shall be in the field; the ONE SHALL BE TAKEN, AND THE OTHER LEFT.

Sure does. And they are not going to heaven {as the rapturist claim} but are taken to Zion {Jer.3v14} for the 1000yr period of rest.

REVELATION 21 {9} And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I WILL SHEW THEE THE BRIDE, THE LAMB'S WIFE. {10} And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, {11} Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; {12} And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates  twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of THE TWELVE TRIBES OF THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL:

Theres the bride according to this new covenant scripture. Its the 12 tribes of Israel, just as the old testament says. We see who the bible calls the Bride. Who do you claim is the Bride?

Wailing Wall, there are two brides. 

John 10

¹⁶ And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

The first bride is not the chosen bride. Jacob worked 7 more years for the chosen bride. That will occur during the 70th week of Daniel as the Church will already be in heaven. See Rev 4 and 5.