Futurism

[Guest kingdombrat]

Just now, kingdombrat said:

27And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.

כזוְהִגְבִּ֥יר בְּרִ֛ית לָֽרַבִּ֖ים שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד וַֽחֲצִ֨י הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ יַשְׁבִּ֣ית | זֶ֣בַח וּמִנְחָ֗ה וְעַ֨ל כְּנַ֚ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה תִּתַּ֖ךְ עַל־שׁוֹמֵֽם:

I guess we could say Yeshua is likened unto a Lamb led to slaughter which equals the Dumb One.   We can entertain that idea.

[Starise]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

This is just one of so many reasons why Jesus sent His HS to us where He will not lie to us, He will teach ONLY the truth and all we have to do is ask! God would no longer turn over HIS Word to be sent around the world to any individual, group, organization, "chosen" people - whether it was the Jews or now the RCC who claim to be the "church" and the only way.... except for the HS....

Just my thoughts, Charlie

I appreciate your zeal Charlie. I  wanted to like this but find I can't for several reasons. While it sounds good, in reality there are those who don't study. Instead they refer to the HS as the only guide. We are told in 2 Tim to STUDY. Yes we need the HS or the HG how ever you refer to Him, yet if we don't "rightly divide" the word of truth we aren't using the faculties at our disposal and should not expect the truth to simply appear because we trusted the HS would show it to us, as if we read the word and suddenly we feel enlightened by a superficial reading of it.

I'll tell you why I'm so very skeptical of many so called "interpretations". I have seen good meaning , well intentioned men of God get it wrong. Not just one or two. Many. It happens daily. 

And I think I get what you're saying about the word handed over to any one organization that claims to be the voice of God. I get that. The RCC definitely makes that claim even though they try to make it look as if they accept everyone. They really don't. Yet to be clear God uses organizations, groups and individuals to send His word around the world. 

@Dennis1209

Thanks for replies. I wanted to reply to your response. It would appear some people are extremely hesitant to look at what's happening due to their skepticism of anything they perceive as "out there", they maintain an ultra conservative approach to anything or anyone who attempt to tie present events to scripture. If they were investors they would be in the low risk category  If they can tie any past event into a scripture (even if it's a stretch) this is preferable to attempting to rationalize that there is the possibility some prophecy may still be waiting to happen and we might be looking at the progressive birth pangs of that eventuality.

While you and I would seriously entertain the strong possibility that technology will be used for the MoB, others will not go there or will hesitate until the very end to see something else.

I would suggest we leave all reasonable doors open on the subject.

@Justin Adams

I hear you saying there are reliability issues with the data itself. No wonder we have so many different opinions! If the data isn't reliable, if we have different people looking at different data, then we have lost any decent traction for a discussion.

@kingdombrat

In bringing baptism into this as a way to compare how some texts might have possibly changed or been added to, you hopefully knew baptism is a touchy subject already, that this was veering from the OT which does nothing to help discuss the OT IMHO. 

For me the focus is on reliability. Can we RELY on the Bible as it is in the most common translations along with concordances, scholarly studies, dictionaries, translation websites to get to the truth, if not what's the point of study at all? If understanding of the word is relegated to only a select group of studied men who "get it" where does that leave the rest of us?

So we either move forward confident in the reliability of the texts or we continue to dispute it and spin our tires.

We could split hairs here and say there's a degree of reliability that assures us a firm grasp of what we are capable of knowing. In saying this, we are free to admit there has been a few textual errors here and there that are mostly cancelled out with comparative texts. This is what I believe. There are some Bibles that might not be a good fit for end times study all by themselves. JMOP.

If we consider the word of God claims to be inspired and if we believe God wanted men who would live far into the future to know the truth, would he prevent them from knowing it? I highly doubt that.

Edited March 25, 2021 by Starise

[Guest kingdombrat]

4 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

27And he will strengthen a covenant for the princes for one week, and half the week he will abolish sacrifice and meal- offering, and on high, among abominations, will be the dumb one, and until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one.

כזוְהִגְבִּ֥יר בְּרִ֛ית לָֽרַבִּ֖ים שָׁב֣וּעַ אֶחָ֑ד וַֽחֲצִ֨י הַשָּׁב֜וּעַ יַשְׁבִּ֣ית | זֶ֣בַח וּמִנְחָ֗ה וְעַ֨ל כְּנַ֚ף שִׁקּוּצִים֙ מְשֹׁמֵ֔ם וְעַד־כָּלָה֙ וְנֶ֣חֱרָצָ֔ה תִּתַּ֖ךְ עַל־שׁוֹמֵֽם:

But notice:

 

What happens to the Dumb One?

until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one

 

I do not believe the Messiah will ever be exterminated which equals forever.

 

[Justin Adams]

1 minute ago, SONshine said:

Hi, kB...  Consider that this is referring to the AoD.

Matthew 24:15-16

The Great Tribulation

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

 

If you read Josephus' account, that is exactly what they did around ad 70. They fled and none were lost. The account is horrific, so take care reading it.

[Guest kingdombrat]

Just now, kingdombrat said:

But notice:

 

What happens to the Dumb One?

until destruction and extermination befall the dumb one

 

I do not believe the Messiah will ever be exterminated which equals forever.

 

So the Dumb One cannot be the Messiah!

[Guest kingdombrat]

4 minutes ago, SONshine said:

Hi, kB...  Consider that this is referring to the AoD.

Matthew 24:15-16

The Great Tribulation

15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

 

I tend to agree!

[Charlie744]

6 minutes ago, kingdombrat said:

You thought about it yesterday.

 

1) Messiah

2) the Dumb One

Oh... I thought you were calling me "the dumb one".... well, I feel so much better ! I was wondering why the Scriptures were referring to me as the dumb one in Hebrew and in the English translations.....  I thought it was not too far off the mark.... 

Charlie

[Marathoner]

1 hour ago, kingdombrat said:

There are 15 names in our Church History starting with the Beloved Apostle John teaching his own Disciples Polycarp, Irenaeus, and Papias that in 40 A.D. Matthew wrote the first Gospel in the HEBREW LANGUAGE.

Irenaeus wasn't a disciple of the apostle John, my friend. He was born long after John joined the Lord in fullness. As for Polycarp and Papias, their discipleship under John is a certainty.  

[Guest kingdombrat]

6 minutes ago, Starise said:

In bringing baptism into this as a way to compare how some texts might have possibly changed or been added to, you hopefully knew baptism is a touchy subject already, that this was veering from the OT which does nothing to help discuss the OT IMHO. 

For me the focus is on reliability. Can we RELY on the Bible as it is in the most common translations along with concordances, scholarly studies, dictionaries, translation websites to get to the truth, if not what's the point of study at all? If understanding of the word is relegated to only a select group of studied men who "get it" where does that leave the rest of us?

So we either move forward confident in the reliability of the texts or we continue to dispute it and spin our tires.

We could split hairs here and say there's a degree of reliability that assures us a firm grasp of what we are capable of knowing. In saying this, we are free to admit there has been a few textual errors here and there that are mostly cancelled out with comparative texts. This is what I believe. There are some Bibles that might not be a good fit for end times study all by themselves. JMOP.

If we consider the word of God claims to be inspired and if we believe God wanted men who would live far into the future to know the truth, would he prevent them from knowing it? I highly doubt that.

I am pointing out man made Baptismal Formula a big deal when God NEVER did.   Therefore, we should not be debating Baptismal formula because the Disciples either disobeyed Christ or did as Christ commanded when we see others being baptized in the book of Acts.  So clearly, we know the Thief on the Cross was never water Baptized, so why are we debating how to Baptize when it's not a real command to be water Baptized?

[Guest kingdombrat]

5 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

Irenaeus wasn't a disciple of the apostle John, my friend. He was born long after John joined the Lord in fullness. As for Polycarp and Papias, their discipleship under John is a certainty.  

Yes/No he was a Disciple to Polycarp more than anyone else.