Futurism

[Heleadethme]

7 minutes ago, Marathoner said:

I'm in agreement with you, sister. Just because this event or that event don't occur in our future doesn't mean there's nothing left to unfold. Just as well, since it's clear that the last days were upon this earth when our Lord sent His Holy Spirit into the world to reason with and convict all men, we know that we live during the last days.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
(Acts 2:17; origin Joel 2:28)

The last days arrived after our Lord's work was finished and He sent His Spirit, both to comfort us (the Comforter) and to convict all men of their wicked deeds and unbelief (the Spirit testifies of He whom our Father sent). In truth the last days are synonymous with "end times," but the reason why I avoid the latter phrase has to do with modern connotations to futurism and everything that entails (Darby et. al.). If "end times" weren't loaded in such a fashion I would use this phrase freely. 

The work of our Lord Jesus Christ is not frozen in time. The revelation of God's will and purpose continues to unfold in us, the seed of Abraham and the work of His hand. Creation groans for the revealing of the sons and daughters of God and this is who we were ordained to be before the foundation of the world; who we are here and now; and who we shall be when we exchange this body which was sown in corruption for the body that is raised incorruptible. 

There is nothing new under the sun. Did the Lord not speak it from ancient times? That which was before is true now, and shall come to pass in days to come. In this way the Lord is pleased to reveal His eternal word to His servants, that the earthly is subject to time and times, but His word stands forever.  

Amen.  And I think that's why just because some things were already fulfilled in one sense doesn't necessarily mean they are over and done with.  We at the very least have sneaking suspicion that the second coming of Christ must be hidden in the scriptures somewhere, perhaps patterned by some of the same prophecies that foretold His first coming and His kingdom.   All things were put under His feet...fulfilled.  But we do not yet see everything put under His feet...so waiting to be fulfilled.  (Then I believe there is a personal application for some of these things as well.)

 

[leah777]

2 hours ago, Justin Adams said:

Indeed. I have heard sadly, "I am not a theologian, I leave that to the experts.."

Whoa, and slow down that thought. Think again and think well about that. 

would you mind expanding on this please? I am a seeker and learner, but not a learned theologian, as I understand the term. I will never be as clever as some on here.

Edited April 8, 2021 by leah777

[Justin Adams]

5 minutes ago, leah777 said:

would you mind expanding on this please? I am a seeker and learner, but not a learned theologian, as I understand the term. I will never be as clever as some on here.

Being clever is not the issue really. Being open to being taught and thinking well. Not bowing to doctrines and man's ideas (thought they may help a little) but being able to study everything and form conclusions with a thoughtful (Godly) idea of searching out truth. Putting oneself in the shoes and the time of the writer and original reader goes a long way to understanding. The scriptures (mostly) were not written to 21st century mankind. We have to bear that in mind and keep studying and reading whatever we can to get a 'feel' for the Truth of an issue rather than the mere translated words. When you stop learning, you have stopped breathing.

[Guest kingdombrat]

16 hours ago, Josheb said:

Am I to understand that to say there is an element of knowing self-deception among the brethren? If they're not being forthcoming with me (or anyone who asks) when I ask the question then that's a form of..... shall we say less-than-honesty with me? Not being fully forthcoming because they know it "ultimately weakens their side of the debate," is an indication of self-deception. Yes? 

 

I assume everyone here holds to the same standard: the single best thing any of us can ever post is.....

 

...polite and respectful, a reasonable and rational, cogent and coherent, topical case of well-rendered scripture. 

 

Yes? Is that not the standard to which we all should aspire? Any reason why I shouldn't think anyone currently in the op doesn't wish that standard for themselves? For you? Me? 

If that is the standard then a "weak" side of a debate is something to fix. Yes? 

For this particular debate subject, it weakens their argument because they are stuck in how to think proportionately to what they're reading and trying to relate it to their objective.

[Guest kingdombrat]

15 hours ago, Josheb said:

How or why is it seen as idealism? 

Because it was the written idea from someone who many claim was known for being a true heretic unto Almighty God and what God represents.

 

So ultimately, people have taken a heretic's idea and allowed it to become their own. And did so, [without] thinking if a heretic conjured this twisting of the Scripture viewpoint, it's probably still a heretical idealism.

[Marathoner]

5 minutes ago, Heleadethme said:

Amen.  And I think that's why just because some things were already fulfilled in one sense doesn't necessarily mean they are over and done with.  We at the very least have sneaking suspicion that the second coming of Christ must be hidden in the scriptures somewhere, perhaps patterned by some of the same prophecies that foretold His first coming and His kingdom.   All things were put under His feet...fulfilled.  But we do not yet see everything put under His feet...so waiting to be fulfilled.  (Then I believe there is a personal application for some of these things as well.)

 

Yes... "on earth as it is in heaven", dear sister. That passage from Isaiah 66 is so profound for within, we find the truth expressed as only the Lord Himself may accomplish. Heaven is His throne and the earth is His footstool... and His enemies shall be placed underneath His feet. 

The Lord said to my Lord,
“Sit at My right hand,
Till I make Your enemies Your footstool.”
The Lord shall send the rod of Your strength out of Zion.
Rule in the midst of Your enemies!
(Psalm 110:1-2 NKJV) 

It has been spoken from His throne --- Behold, I make all things new --- but the earth awaits the appointed time. In truth it has already come to pass because the Ancient of days sent forth His Word from heaven. As God speaks, it is done.

Where is His house so He might rest? The Lord does not look to stone which He created nor does He dwell in structures raised by human hands. The Lord spoke this before the Second Temple was raised on earth as testified by His witness, the prophet Isaiah. Did He not speak of it during ancient times?

Remember this, and show yourselves men;
Recall to mind, O you transgressors.
Remember the former things of old,
For I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like Me,
Declaring the end from the beginning,
And from ancient times things that are not yet done,
Saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
And I will do all My pleasure,’
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
The man who executes My counsel, from a far country.
Indeed I have spoken it;
I will also bring it to pass.
I have purposed it;
I will also do it.
(Isaiah 46:8-11 NKJV)

I struggled to understand. My mind could not grasp the majesty of the Lord presiding over His holy ones and so I cried out, "Teach me wisdom, Lord, because I am an ignorant man! I am like the dust and perish from a lack of Your knowledge."

Do not gaze upon this dust which is passing away, subject to time and the passage of time. As the Lord speaks it is done, but the earth awaits the appointed time for this pleases Him. Therefore we look to heaven but await the fullness of time here on earth. This faith which God has given to us assures us of the truth... not these eyes of dust which are passing away.  

[Marathoner]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

To be fair, it is better to say the Dispensational hermeneutic corrupts the learning process. Its assumptions are wrong. Therefore everything stemming from its principles is likewise wrong. But people are responsible for there own actions and those who do not critically examine what they're learning are culpable. Not knowing is no excuse, especially since we live in a time when alternatives and a thorough history of Christian thoughts is just a few mouse clicks away. 

I enjoy your posts because you encourage us to examine ourselves and remain focused, brother. This is a scriptural exhortation and in light of the cacophony of voices swirling around us today we need this more than ever. The apostles didn't have to contend with this but alas, we do. 

Forsooth, the apostles didn't speak nor write our language. Why, they didn't carry phones either. Imagine that! 

I'm exhorted in the same fashion by my old friend Paul (not the apostle, though this is true of the apostle who is our old friend), but circumstances and physical separation dictate our fellowship is sparing on account of his schedule and mine. My old friend shares the same wit and humor in common with you, something I've noticed among those who share your calling. 

Of course I enjoy the wit immensely and I'm not offended in the least. Why would I be, when this reminds of the man whom the Lord appointed to teach me what I needed to know (soteriological)? I know better because this wit gives away a humble man. 

Paul views futurism in much the same way as you do, Josh. He was the first to teach me about the temple made without hands, after all. 

Edited April 8, 2021 by Marathoner
typos and clarity

[Guest kingdombrat]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

mmmm..... okay. How is that idealism?  

For taking the event of a [Rapture] and then selecting when that event would occur is an entire thought process of ideas.   Idealism, specifically!  Because the only thing factual is the [Rapture] itself.

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

What is the ideal this kind of futurism pursues?

This particular idealism is to escape Reality!

 

[Your closest friendnt]

4 hours ago, David1701 said:

Fleshly mocking is unbecoming; but, there is also Holy Spirit inspired mocking, which is good and right.  We must not allow niceness to replace holiness.

Here are some examples of Holy Spirit inspired sarcasm/mockery (including by God himself (the Proverbs quote) and a donkey!).

Numbers 22:27-29 (KJV)

 27 And when the ass saw the angel of the Lord, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam’s anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff.
  28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?
  29 And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee.

1 Kings 18:27 (KJV) And it came to pass at noon, that Elijah mocked them, and said, Cry aloud: for he is a god; either he is talking, or he is pursuing, or he is in a journey, or peradventure he sleepeth, and must be awaked.

2 Cor. 3:1 (EMTV) Do we begin again to commend ourselves? Or do we need, as some do, letters of recommendation to you, or letters of recommendation from you?

2 Cor. 12:13 (EMTV) For what is it in which you were inferior to other churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong!

Pro. 1:24-33 (KJV)

24 ¶Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
  25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
  26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
  27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
  28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
  29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:
  30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
  31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
  32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.
  33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil. 

There are probably other examples.

Alive said mockery is not allowed. 

It is policy, it's not something open to debate as it may happen before the policy is put into affect, as that time is long gone we are posting within the sites policy " no mocking ".

If someone seeks to  ammend and or to challenge the site's policy has to follow the process and not to argue with the mod, and yes I have the right to get involved and speak out about it as a member.

And why should I be in favor of " a mocking policy"?

Do you know the synonymous words for mocking? 

 

[Marathoner]

25 minutes ago, Josheb said:

I think that true. Not sure there'd be any agreement to that point, though. We can see it in the posts here but I'm not sure how conscious that is. 

This points toward the truth that we see darkly and know only in part. As @Justin Adams wrote earlier, it's not a matter of cleverness nor possessing all knowledge at any given time, but rather submitting ourselves to be taught of God and by God. What does this mean to me?

Leaning into the Lord and being both open and receptive to instruction, correction, and reproof regardless of how this arrives. We're blessed when can declare,

"Well. That destroys everything I had assembled in my meager little mind. It smarts and is rather humiliating, but isn't this what the Lord promised of old? He said He would dwell with us, teach us, and correct us along the way. So... I was dreadfully mistaken. I suppose this means I'm a man after all. Blessed be the name of the Lord who keeps us in His hand!"

Edited April 8, 2021 by Marathoner