Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[truth7t7]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Indeed, and repeatedly fled from historical facts. Quire amazing.

What you "Believe" are facts, in "Opinion"

If Daniel meant 490 years, he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, he wrote (Seventy Weeks) it's that simple

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Edited August 11, 2022 by truth7t7

[WilliamL]

On 8/8/2022 at 3:11 AM, Diaste said:

In any case, so we don't lose sight of the main point. "Elthen" cannot be past tense in both Rev 6:17 and 11:18. To hold to this means wrath had arrived in Rev 6:17 before the signs of His coming and before His appearance. 

Again, as I explained before, the passage does not say "wrath came"; it says "the day of wrath came." Big big difference.

The essential meaning is, that at this point the unbelievers know that God's wrath is going to occur; not that it has occurred.

As far as the signs of Christ's coming, the whole tribulation period is summed up in the first five Seals. And then, the 6th Seal reveals the heavenly signs that are to just precede the revealing of the Lord. And then, the unbelievers say "hide us from the Face," meaning that they have seen the Face. Which is why they are fleeing and hiding. The unbelievers would not say "hide us from the Face" before they saw it, because they do not know the Face is going to appear before it actually does.

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, truth7t7 said:

What you "Believe" are facts, in "Opinion"

If Daniel meant 490 years, he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, he wrote (Seventy Weeks) it's that simple

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

So when looking the overall picture, and seeing the historical connections to the rebuilt temple/city and the Messiah, the future literal days doesn't hold water. 

Properly, pass part of שָׁבַע (H7650) as a denom. of שֶׁבַע (H7651)

1. seven, period of seven (days or years), heptad, week

   1. period of seven days, a week

      1. Feast of Weeks

   2. heptad, seven (of years)

   3. shâbûwaʻ, shaw-boo'-ah; or שָׁבֻעַ shâbuaʻ; also (feminine) שְׁבֻעָה shᵉbuʻâh; properly, passive participle of H7650 as a denominative of H7651; literally, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):—seven, week.

[Retrobyter]

16 minutes ago, truth7t7 said:

What you "Believe" are facts, in "Opinion"

If Daniel meant 490 years, he would have written (Four Hundred Ninety Years) he didn't, he wrote (Seventy Weeks) it's that simple

In Love, Jesus Is The Lord

Shalom, truth7t7.

Actually, Gabriel said, "shaaVu`iym shiV`iym," that is, "seventy sevens."

Leviticus 25:1-12 (KJV)

1 And the LORD spake unto Moses in mount Sinai, saying, 

2 "Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them,

"'When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD. 3 Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof; 4 But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard. 5 That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: forit is a year of rest unto the land. 6 And the sabbath of the land shall be meat for you; for thee, and for thy servant, and for thy maid, and for thy hired servant, and for thy stranger that sojourneth with thee, 7 And for thy cattle, and for the beast that are in thy land, shall all the increase thereof be meat.

8 "'And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto thee forty and nine years. 9 Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land. 10 And ye shall hallow the fiftieth year, and proclaim liberty throughout all the land unto all the inhabitants thereof: it shall be a jubile unto you; and ye shall return every man unto his possession, and ye shall return every man unto his family. 11 A jubile shall that fiftieth year be unto you: ye shall not sow, neither reap that which groweth of itself in it, nor gather the grapes in it of thy vine undressed. 12 For it is the jubile; it shall be holy unto you: ye shall eat the increase thereof out of the field.'"

It was COMMON to count sevens of years! They were to keep a Shabbat ("Sabbath") of YEARS, too! These 70 Weeks of years are simply 10 Shabbats of Weeks!

[Diaste]

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

Again, as I explained before, the passage does not say "wrath came"; it says "the day of wrath came." Big big difference.

Excellent. We agree.

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The essential meaning is, that at this point the unbelievers know that God's wrath is going to occur; not that it has occurred.

We agree again.

13 hours ago, WilliamL said:

As far as the signs of Christ's coming, the whole tribulation period is summed up in the first five Seals. And then, the 6th Seal reveals the heavenly signs that are to just precede the revealing of the Lord. And then, the unbelievers say "hide us from the Face," meaning that they have seen the Face. Which is why they are fleeing and hiding. The unbelievers would not say "hide us from the Face" before they saw it, because they do not know the Face is going to appear before it actually does.

And once more we are in agreement.

So now apply that to Rev 11:18 using the same verb form, since it is the same, in the context of Rev 11:15-18. Wrath is either present or just about to commence. 

Then, if wrath has come in Rev 11:18 at the 7th trump, and it is imminent in Rev 6:17 at the 6th seal, then the 6th seal and the 7th trump arrive at the nexus of wrath; the imminence[6th seal] and the fact of the onset[7th trump]. 

Unless of course we are to think wrath begins twice. That would mean wrath would begin at the 6th seal, continue to some unknown point on the continuum, end, then pick up again at the sounding of the 7th trump.

The verb form is the same in both Rev 6:17 and 11:18; present or future, the context is clear that wrath is about to fall and wrath has not been ongoing before the 6th seal or the 7th trump. 

As wild and crazy as it sounds the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in conjunction. And since it's a well known fact that all believers are not appointed to wrath then they will not be on the earth during wrath. So if the 7th trump is the end of the mystery of God and it's also the herald of the onset of wrath, and Jesus comes and gathers us at the last trump; then the 7th trump of Revelation is that same last trump from 1 Cor 15 and the trump of God from 1 Thess 4.

That's my point: The last trump, trump of God, the loud trump and the 7th trump are all the same. 

[truth7t7]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

Excellent. We agree.

We agree again.

And once more we are in agreement.

So now apply that to Rev 11:18 using the same verb form, since it is the same, in the context of Rev 11:15-18. Wrath is either present or just about to commence. 

Then, if wrath has come in Rev 11:18 at the 7th trump, and it is imminent in Rev 6:17 at the 6th seal, then the 6th seal and the 7th trump arrive at the nexus of wrath; the imminence[6th seal] and the fact of the onset[7th trump]. 

Unless of course we are to think wrath begins twice. That would mean wrath would begin at the 6th seal, continue to some unknown point on the continuum, end, then pick up again at the sounding of the 7th trump.

The verb form is the same in both Rev 6:17 and 11:18; present or future, the context is clear that wrath is about to fall and wrath has not been ongoing before the 6th seal or the 7th trump. 

As wild and crazy as it sounds the 6th seal and 7th trump occur in conjunction. And since it's a well known fact that all believers are not appointed to wrath then they will not be on the earth during wrath. So if the 7th trump is the end of the mystery of God and it's also the herald of the onset of wrath, and Jesus comes and gathers us at the last trump; then the 7th trump of Revelation is that same last trump from 1 Cor 15 and the trump of God from 1 Thess 4.

That's my point: The last trump, trump of God, the loud trump and the 7th trump are all the same. 

I agree, however I see the 6th seal and 2nd woe being closely related in time, not a big issue in splitting hairs

The "same hour" the witnesses are raised the 2nd woe takes place in the great earthquake, and the 3rd woe in the 7th Trump comes "Quickly" in Gods wrath

Jesus Is The Lord

 

Edited August 12, 2022 by truth7t7

[not an echo]

On 8/3/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/2/2022 at 1:56 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your last paragraph, for me, rather than it being "the difference between life and death" it is the difference between being ready and looking for Jesus' "sign" appearance at any time, or, being ready and looking for the A of D to show himself at any time.  The former fosters the readiness of anyone for either.  The latter fosters the commonplace slack of some to really serious-up, and for the unsaved, a mentality of procrastination (till they "see") that can skew a genuine coming to Christ by faith---and rather---their confidence in themselves to succeed at rejecting "the mark", which opportunity(?) is squandered away, if they end up perishing before they are faced with such.  I have often wondered if this is part of the "strong delusion" Paul spoke of in II Thessalonians 2...

This is the common weakness of the pretrib position, emotional pleading, a complete lack of understanding the reality of the situation. It's an argument I have heard dozens of times and no matter how it's reworded it still lacks a logical foundation. 

Hello Diaste,

What I am saying stems chiefly from what I showed in the opening post of the first thread I ever started on this forum:  The First Four Trumpets (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249206-the-first-four-trumpets/).  Whatever you've "heard dozens of times,"  you hadn't heard what I put forth in my opening post of that thread until February 29, 2020---perhaps March 2, 2020, as that is when you made your first response to it.  And, much more than "emotional pleading,"  it is legitimately concerning.  It's not hard to imagine how serious those got in Noah's day---who had so long rejected his warnings---when that day suddenly came that "all the fountains of the great deep [were] broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened" (Gen. 7:11).  Whatever "just in case" plan they might have had, things didn't quite turn out where they could make good on it.  Some, especially Noah's closer kin or ole friends, could have easily figured that he would open that door and let them in if the chips were down.  But, Noah wasn't in charge of the door.  That's "the reality of the situation."

On 8/3/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

If one is waiting for an event to come to Christ and they sincerely come to Christ with a pure heart and sincere belief, that's great; they are just as much born again as anyone. This above argument is born of arrogance that all must be born again under the parameters of group think.

One cannot plan to come to Christ on his or her own terms.

On 8/3/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

Early or late, work all day or only for an hour, the pay was the same as agreed upon. Only demagoguery requires arguing from the standpoint of the above quote. It's a false premise, impure in foundation and intent.

I don't know why you continue to hold what I say in such contempt.  The "labourers" didn't get to set the terms or come to work merely when they desired (Matt. 20:1-16).  They were personally bidden.

On 8/3/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

Jesus said, "See, I have told you in advance." And this advance warning context is the A of D and GT. There would be no need for this if pretrib was fact. Again the argument fails.

What do you mean?  Jesus' Olivet Discourse holds much needed instruction and hope, for them then, for us now, for all throughout the NT era of the Church, and for those who will come to Christ during Daniel's 70th Week---after the Church has been gathered.

On 8/3/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

Do you see here how proper conduct is expected no matter the length of the delay or the circumstances? And how improper conduct will be punished? And how the excuse of "The latter fosters the commonplace slack of some to really serious-up, and for the unsaved, a mentality of procrastination (till they "see")" is moot? The unsaved won't even know what's happening as they do not have the Guide to Truth. Remember? "For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark. 39And they were oblivious, until the flood came and swept them all away. So will it be at the coming of the Son of Man"

At the mid of your reply, you state, "The unsaved won't even know what's happening as they do not have the Guide to Truth. Remember?"  And then, you use what Jesus said about the days of the flood.  So, what would you take Noah's preaching to the unsaved in that day to be (II Pet. 2:5)?

On 8/3/2022 at 5:14 AM, Diaste said:

Rebirth in the Spirit comes first, then the hope in Christ, looking for His return. We who walk in the Spirit look for Christ's return above all else, not beasts and profane acts in a false temple, knowing that events must come first, events that signal His return is near.

You have the wrong focus here. 

There is no event or events that will signal the event of the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" and the gathering.  For the event of the gathering, and all that happens concurrent with it, we are enjoined to be "ready, for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44/the event of His Sign Appearance for the gathering/6th Seal).  But, for those who are left at that time, there will be, as you say, "events that signal His return is near" (by this I take it you mean His Second Advent).  The "sign" appearance that Jesus will make some seven years before His Second Advent will be a part of the events that will signal that His Second Advent "is near" (Matt. 24:32-35).  Pay close attention to what I am saying, to what Jesus says, and to what is made more clear concerning all of this in The Revelation.  The day of Christ's Second Advent will be known.  The day that He makes His sign appearance for the gathering of the Church will be unknown.  It will be a day like today---"in such an hour as ye think not" (Matt. 24:37-44, esp. vs. 44).

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

Hello everyone,

I know this is but it is a happy thought for me.  School is back in full swing, and I'm fixing to have to go drive all them critters home!  I have 46 this year (so far)!  These are just their faces.  The school bus is invisible...

                          (of course, this is me!)

  

   

   

  

  

   

  

  

   

   

  

        

 

[not an echo]

One more thing (for now),

I was just able to go back to page 80 and do what I had planned with the post slot I had "Reserved..." the other night (post #5).  I reserved it to try to take care of a problem that I had with my post just preceding it (post 4).  I ended up with the same problem at first and had to end up pulling my chart illustration from my personal file.

Gotta go get them kids...

NOTE:  Several months later, when doing some review, I noticed that the posts I spoke of above had shifted.  Same page, but not the same post numbers.  I've encountered this before.  All I can figure is that someone has deleted one or more of their posts in the past and this resulted in the shift.  I am not going to correct the above, because I suppose this could happen again.  In any case, the info above is close...

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo
Add NOTE:

[Retrobyter]

On 8/10/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Sure. Made up of individuals. It has to be logically. And it's also based on the character of God and His decrees. God decrees that each person pays for their own sins and another person is not required to pay for the sins of another, and cannot.

Shalom, Diaste.

No, sir! He is dealing with NATIONS, here, NOT individuals! It's not about the actions of a few or the one; it's about the actions of the MAJORITY! As far as individuals "paying for their own sins," they'll do that, too, LATER; HOWEVER, here in this passage of Scripture, Yeshua` is dealing with the NATIONAL attitudes of the general populations! 

When a population chants "Death to Israel!" don't you think that is a NATIONAL problem? When a people's children are taught in their schools that "Israel is the little Satan, and the USA is the big Satan," that's a NATIONAL problem! When a nation teaches its children that it's okay to hate Jews and other non-believers in Allah, and kill them when they have a chance, that's a NATIONAL problem! When a nation would rather take the heads off of the Christians within its borders than to help people out, that's a NATIONAL problem! When a people can't or WON'T stand up to the leadership of a tyrannical dictator, and that dictator DEMANDS that all the churches within his country be burned down to the ground with the members locked inside, that's a NATIONAL problem!

On 8/10/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

So if every individual is judged based on the actions of the few then it's a prejudicial judgement and not just.

No! This is not based on the actions of the few, UNLESS the few are in charge of the country, such as in an oligarchy! This is based on the actions of the MAJORITY! The actions of the general attitude of the populace against God's people! This is not a "heaven or hell" judgment; this is a judgment based upon HOW THEY TREATED GOD'S PEOPLE!

THINK ABOUT IT! Does one become a Christian based on his or her good merits and if his or her good deeds outweigh his or her bad deeds? NO! This is something else!

On 8/10/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Sure the nations are gathered, but the segregation is by individual and their heart condition. 

No! These NATIONS are gathered and the NATIONS are segregated into two types, based on their NATIONAL position on God's people, the Jews and the Christians!

On 8/10/2022 at 5:16 AM, Diaste said:

Does it make any sense this: 

Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave Me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave Me something to drink, I was a stranger and you took Me in, 36I was naked and you clothed Me, I was sick and you looked after Me, I was in prison and you visited Me.’

37Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You something to drink? 38When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick or in prison and visit You?’

40And the King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of Mine, you did for Me.’

Is based on some national policy, represented by ambassadors, and every one of the millions of people in a country abided by the policy and are found righteous? Puh-leeze.

It DOES if one focuses on the King's answers in verses 40 and 45, particularly verse 40!

"Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me!" We're not "saved" by our good deeds!

People are generally "sheep" in the sense that we FOLLOW what we are told and taught, and very seldom does one stand up and say, "That's not right!" They don't like to "make waves." They don't want to "rock the boat." They want to live their lives as they have always done, and weather whatever storms may come. If some fanatics stand up and say, "Israel is evil! We should just get rid of all the Jews!" and so many people are on board with that, and you're a lone voice that might rather say, "No! That's not right!" Will the average person stand up against the majority and risk getting blown away with a gun shot, if they speak up and disagree? No, most cower under the general consensus and accept what's considered the "right answer." Some will even join the majority, rather than risk their lives or the lives of their family members!

Please, look at it again with an OPEN mind this time.