Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Day of Wrath commences at the 6th Seal, because the Day came/is come.

I think more likely imminent here, but I agree in principle.

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

By the time of the 7th Trumpet, the God's Wrath has been taking place throughout Trumpets 1-6. The wrath came, and is still taking place.

Now here is where I diverge. I have heard often through the years the trumps are wrath; except for the trumps are not called wrath in scripture. The bowls are specifically designated wrath, the trumps are not.

I have heard the rationalizations for the trumps being God's wrath but they fall short. 

Jesus Christ never calls the trumps wrath; only the bowls. 

12 hours ago, WilliamL said:

The Day of Wrath concludes at the 7th Seal:

Rev. 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them [their Bowls, vs. 7] the wrath of God is complete.

If by conclude you mean the final act is played out, then I agree. 

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

Fundamentally that's wildly unjust. So if a collective schism of a radical splinter of leadership goes full anti-semite, the entire country, the whole nation, every individual would be guilty? That's extreme.

If USA leadership stopped sending military aid to Israel, for example, and some Israelis died because of it, and even though half of Congress could have opposed the lack of funding, then the whole nation is guilty?

So if the leadership of a country never funded Christian missions, but individuals collectively kept funding Christian missions, then the ones who did support Christians in far away places would be guilty anyway?

I don't think so.

Shalom, Diaste.

You're still not seeing the bigger picture. What do these prophecies have in common?

Ezekiel 30:1-19 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying,

2 "Son of man, prophesy and say,

"'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Howl ye, Woe worth the day! 3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. 4 And the sword shall come upon Egypt, and great pain shall be in Ethiopia, when the slain shall fall in Egypt, and they shall take away her multitude, and her foundations shall be broken down. 5 Ethiopia, and Libya, and Lydia, and all the mingled people, and Chub, and the men of the land that is in league, shall fall with them by the sword."

6 "'Thus saith the LORD;

"'"They also that uphold Egypt shall fall; and the pride of her power shall come down: from the tower of Syene shall they fall in it by the sword," saith the Lord GOD.

7 "'"And they shall be desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities shall be in the midst of the cities that are wasted. 8 And they shall know that I am the LORD, when I have set a fire in Egypt, and when all her helpers shall be destroyed. 9 In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh."

10 "'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon. 11 He and his people with him, the terrible of the nations, shall be brought to destroy the land: and they shall draw their swords against Egypt, and fill the land with the slain. 12 And I will make the rivers dry, and sell the land into the hand of the wicked: and I will make the land waste, and all that is therein, by the hand of strangers: I the LORD have spoken it."

13 "'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"I will also destroy the idols, and I will cause their images to cease out of Noph; and there shall be no more a prince of the land of Egypt: and I will put a fear in the land of Egypt. 14 And I will make Pathros desolate, and will set fire in Zoan, and will execute judgments in No. 15 And I will pour my fury upon Sin, the strength of Egypt; and I will cut off the multitude of No. 16 And I will set fire in Egypt: Sin shall have great pain, and No shall be rent asunder, and Noph shall have distresses daily. 17 The young men of Aven and of Pibeseth shall fall by the sword: and these cities shall go into captivity. 18 At Tehaphnehes also the day shall be darkened, when I shall break there the yokes of Egypt: and the pomp of her strength shall cease in her: as for her, a cloud shall cover her, and her daughters shall go into captivity. 19 Thus will I execute judgments in Egypt: and they shall know that I am the LORD."'"

Ezekiel 27:1-36 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 

2 "Now, thou son of man, take up a lamentation for Tyrus; 3 And say unto Tyrus,

"'O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"O Tyrus, thou hast said, 'I am of perfect beauty.' 4 Thy borders are in the midst of the seas, thy builders have perfected thy beauty. 5 They have made all thy ship boards of fir trees of Senir: they have taken cedars from Lebanon to make masts for thee. 6 Of the oaks of Bashan have they made thine oars; the company of the Ashurites have made thy benches of ivory, brought out of the isles of Chittim. 7 Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee. 8 The inhabitants of Zidon and Arvad were thy mariners: thy wise men, O Tyrus, that were in thee, were thy pilots. 9 The ancients of Gebal and the wise men thereof were in thee thy calkers: all the ships of the sea with their mariners were in thee to occupy thy merchandise. 10 They of Persia and of Lud and of Phut were in thine army, thy men of war: they hanged the shield and helmet in thee; they set forth thy comeliness. 11 The men of Arvad with thine army were upon thy walls round about, and the Gammadims were in thy towers: they hanged their shields upon thy walls round about; they have made thy beauty perfect.

12 "'"Tarshish was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of all kind of riches; with silver, iron, tin, and lead, they traded in thy fairs. 13 Javan, Tubal, and Meshech, they were thy merchants: they traded the persons of men and vessels of brass in thy market. 14 They of the house of Togarmah traded in thy fairs with horses and horsemen and mules. 15 The men of Dedan were thy merchants; many isles were the merchandise of thine hand: they brought thee for a present horns of ivory and ebony. 16 Syria was thy merchant by reason of the multitude of the wares of thy making: they occupied in thy fairs with emeralds, purple, and broidered work, and fine linen, and coral, and agate. 17 Judah, and the land of Israel, they were thy merchants: they traded in thy market wheat of Minnith, and Pannag, and honey, and oil, and balm. 18 Damascus was thy merchant in the multitude of the wares of thy making, for the multitude of all riches; in the wine of Helbon, and white wool. 19 Dan also and Javan going to and fro occupied in thy fairs: bright iron, cassia, and calamus, were in thy market. 20 Dedan was thy merchant in precious clothes for chariots. 21 Arabia, and all the princes of Kedar, they occupied with thee in lambs, and rams, and goats: in these were they thy merchants. 22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah, they were thy merchants: they occupied in thy fairs with chief of all spices, and with all precious stones, and gold. 23 Haran, and Canneh, and Eden, the merchants of Sheba, Asshur, and Chilmad, were thy merchants. 24 These were thy merchants in all sorts of things, in blue clothes, and broidered work, and in chests of rich apparel, bound with cords, and made of cedar, among thy merchandise. 25 The ships of Tarshish did sing of thee in thy market: and thou wast replenished, and made very glorious in the midst of the seas.

26 "'"Thy rowers have brought thee into great waters: the east wind hath broken thee in the midst of the seas. 27 Thy riches, and thy fairs, thy merchandise, thy mariners, and thy pilots, thy calkers, and the occupiers of thy merchandise, and all thy men of war, that are in thee, and in all thy company which is in the midst of thee, shall fall into the midst of the seas in the day of thy ruin. 28 The suburbs shall shake at the sound of the cry of thy pilots. 29 And all that handle the oar, the mariners, and all the pilots of the sea, shall come down from their ships, they shall stand upon the land; 30 And shall cause their voice to be heard against thee, and shall cry bitterly, and shall cast up dust upon their heads, they shall wallow themselves in the ashes: 31 And they shall make themselves utterly bald for thee, and gird them with sackcloth, and they shall weep for thee with bitterness of heart and bitter wailing. 32 And in their wailing they shall take up a lamentation for thee, and lament over thee, saying, What city is like Tyrus, like the destroyed in the midst of the sea? 33 When thy wares went forth out of the seas, thou filledst many people; thou didst enrich the kings of the earth with the multitude of thy riches and of thy merchandise. 34 In the time when thou shalt be broken by the seas in the depths of the waters thy merchandise and all thy company in the midst of thee shall fall. 35 All the inhabitants of the isles shall be astonished at thee, and their kings shall be sore afraid, they shall be troubled in their countenance. 36 The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more."'"

Ezekiel 25:1-7 (KJV)

1 The word of the LORD came again unto me, saying, 

2 "Son of man, set thy face against the Ammonites, and prophesy against them; 3 And say unto the Ammonites,

"'Hear the word of the Lord GOD; Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Because thou saidst, 'Aha,' against my sanctuary, when it was profaned; and against the land of Israel, when it was desolate; and against the house of Judah, when they went into captivity; 4 Behold, therefore I will deliver thee to the men of the east for a possession, and they shall set their palaces in thee, and make their dwellings in thee: they shall eat thy fruit, and they shall drink thy milk. 5 And I will make Rabbah a stable for camels, and the Ammonites a couchingplace for flocks: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. 6 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; 7 Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD."'"

Ezekiel 25:8-11 (KJV)

8 "'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Because that Moab and Seir do say, 'Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the heathen;' 9 Therefore, behold, I will open the side of Moab from the cities, from his cities which are on his frontiers, the glory of the country, Bethjeshimoth, Baalmeon, and Kiriathaim, 10 Unto the men of the east with the Ammonites, and will give them in possession, that the Ammonites may not be remembered among the nations. 11 And I will execute judgments upon Moab; and they shall know that I am the LORD."'"

Ezekiel 25:12-14 (KJV)

12 "'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Because that Edom hath dealt against the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath greatly offended, and revenged himself upon them; 

13 "'Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"I will also stretch out mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall by the sword. 14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance," saith the Lord GOD.'"

Ezekiel 25:15-17 (KJV)

15 "'Thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Because the Philistines have dealt by revenge, and have taken vengeance with a despiteful heart, to destroy it for the old hatred;"

16 "'Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD;

"'"Behold, I will stretch out mine hand upon the Philistines, and I will cut off the Cherethims, and destroy the remnant of the sea coast. 17 And I will execute great vengeance upon them with furious rebukes; and they shall know that I am the LORD, when I shall lay my vengeance upon them."'"

I'll give you a hint: To what individuals is He prophesying?

 

13 hours ago, Diaste said:

You are correct here but it still changes nothing in my mind. 

Labels are just a way to organize into categories and are usually based on stereotype, prejudice and bigotry. But I think both the above examples are hopeful at best. 

Again, it's a whole other topic. But I do agree with your continued emphasis on the individual. 

Well, "a man 'convinced' against his will, ...."

One should REALLY try to see the Lord's Coming in a LITERAL way! We DON'T "GO OFF TO HEAVEN!" Not even for a short visit! Yeshua`s business is HERE! And, in the Resurrection, that will be OUR business, too! We will "rule and reign with Him!" That will involve LEARNING how to "rule and reign," and it involves being sent to new countries (perhaps, the old countries with which we are most familiar) and rule there on the Messiah's behalf! That's why He will be called "the King of kings!" Those titles, the "King of kings" and "Master of masters," are all about a hierarchy that HE will build through US! 

And, when the earth and sky have been renewed and it is time for us to be in the New Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem comes HERE! We don't go to it, except in whatever vehicles we have available at the time or on foot.

Revelation 21:24-27 (KJV)

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth (that's US!) do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

[not an echo]

On 8/9/2022 at 4:44 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven"/Matt. 24:30), and by our gathering together unto Him (at the rapture/Matt. 24:31),

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (His Second Advent) is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (His Second Advent) shall not come, except there come a falling away (G646, "defection from truth") first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

How did you see the above correctly, then mess up the below?

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only He (Christ's Holy Spirit) who now letteth (hindereth) will let (hinder), until He (Christ's Holy Spirit) be taken out of the way (with the Church at the gathering).

8 And then (after the gathering) shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (His Second Advent):

It's baffling. You're not the only one so I'm not singling you out.

How do you, or anyone else, go from the rebellion and revealing happening before the Day of Christ, to thinking the Holy Spirit, Michael, the Church or, Jesus Himself, is a restrainer of evil when the whole bit has nothing to do with restraining evil? 

You should really look up v7 in the Greek and literally translate it. It reads, "Only now hold fast till he emerges on the world stage in the middle."

Verses 6-8 are iterating the theme from v 1-3: The beast is coming first before Jesus comes and gathers His people. That can't change in v 6-8. 

When it's twisted like this then a gathering must happen before the beast is revealed and the rebellion occurs. You know that isn't the case with what you posted:

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (the appearance of "the sign of the Son of man in heaven"/Matt. 24:30), and by our gathering together unto Him (at the rapture/Matt. 24:31),

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ (His Second Advent) is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (His Second Advent) SHALL NOT COME, except there come a falling away (G646, "defection from truth") FIRST, AND that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

You know the proper order as shown here. Jesus will only come after the rebellion and the man of sin is revealed. And again, you know the order of the 'rapture'; after the rebellion and revealing. You show right there: it's rebellion/revealing and only after this, Jesus' arrival/gathering.

But you go on and make a u-turn and put the rapture before the rebellion/revealing. That would mean for some inexplicable reason you have the rapture occurring before the rapture occurs. How can the rapture be before the rapture?

What messes everyone up is verse 7, I get that. Used to cause me some trouble too. Seems out of place and more like nonsense. Pretrib fancied it proof of a pretrib gathering, I heard that regurgitated time and again over decades. Still today it's said some divine entity is restraining evil on earth. [imagine thinking the church restrains evil! LOL]

Well they aren't exactly doing a bang up job on that front, are they? And that's just from the evidence of evil that's in our face every day. 

Even if I was unable to reconcile v 7 and it's apparently nonsensical phrasing there no way I, or any of us, should resort to changing the clear order of events as written by Paul in v 3; The day of Christ[and the gathering] will NOT come before the rebellion/revealing. Period. 

No, presto change-o, abracadabra, shenanigans allowed.  

That means v 7 has to align with the main thrust of v 1-3, verses which establish the obvious and easily understood order of these 4 events: The Coming of Jesus, the gathering, the rebellion and the revealing.

Which order we see written in the text; First the rebellion and the revealing, then the Coming of Jesus and the gathering. 

Look up v 7 in the Greek. It's an eye opener. 

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your post as a whole, when I first read through it, I could see that you still do not understand my position---but I don't know how.  As many discussions as we have had, I'm thinking that if you don't yet understand my position any better than you evidenced above, then you may never.  But, I will try to clarify it for you further, in relation to the above.

First of all, I don't believe you have yet begun to really differentiate between the event of the sign appearance that Christ will make, which is shown with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-7:17 (cp. Matt. 24:29-31) and the event of His Second Advent, which is shown much later, in Revelation 19:11-21 (cp. Matt. 24:26-28).  Also, I see no evidence that you have a concept that there will be over seven years of time between these two events.  Whether you agree, my position is based on this realization.  Moreover, based upon the convergence of the related prophetic puzzle pieces, the gathering of the Church will occur in conjunction with the event of the sign appearance Christ will make.  Now, with these things in mind, read again what all you have quoted of me above and you should better understand what I am saying.

In one of your sentences, you state, "Jesus will only come after the rebellion and the man of sin is revealed."  I agree with this sentence, if you are meaning Jesus' Second Advent (which I believe you are).  But, by what you say after this, and elsewhere, you have the gathering also happening at Jesus' Second Advent.  So, I know that overall, we are not in agreement.  I would state it like this:  The man of sin will be revealed before Jesus' Second Advent, but not before the gathering, which happens in conjunction with the event of His Sign Appearance.  There will be some seven plus years between the event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the event of His Second Advent.  Again, agree or not, this is my position---and it aligns perfectly with Scripture.

Beyond this, I would like to comment on just a couple of other things...

On 8/9/2022 at 4:44 AM, Diaste said:

You should really look up v7 in the Greek and literally translate it. It reads, "Only now hold fast till he emerges on the world stage in the middle."

I believe you are talking about II Thessalonians 2:6, instead of "v7", are you not?  I have never seen any translation that would support what you are here putting forth.  I must say, I really struggle with the NDV (New Diaste Version).  Sorry.

On 8/9/2022 at 4:44 AM, Diaste said:

What messes everyone up is verse 7, I get that. Used to cause me some trouble too. Seems out of place and more like nonsense. Pretrib fancied it proof of a pretrib gathering, I heard that regurgitated time and again over decades. Still today it's said some divine entity is restraining evil on earth. [imagine thinking the church restrains evil! LOL]

Well they aren't exactly doing a bang up job on that front, are they? And that's just from the evidence of evil that's in our face every day. 

Concerning Christ's Church, you make these statements:  "Still today it's said some divine entity is restraining evil on earth. [imagine thinking the church restrains evil! LOL]"  Then you say, "Well they aren't exactly doing a bang up job on that front, are they? And that's just from the evidence of evil that's in our face every day."  It remains a curious and troubling thing for me the way you disparage the Church.  I believe it would be in order for me to remind you that one day you will face Christ, and He "loved the Church, and gave Himself for it" (Eph. 5:25).  Moreover, He "is the Head of the Church" (Eph. 5:23).  Have you ever heard the saying, "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"?  Diaste, have you ever considered that, by your profession, you are a part of the Church you so disparage?

When I contemplate what you say and the restraining of evil that is effected in this world by Christ's Spirit working through His Church, I think of all the controversy revolving around people of law enforcement these days.  Of course, there are very good policemen, very bad policemen, and everything in between (similarly with the Church/and there are tares).  We are living in a day that many disparage all policemen rather than respect any of them.  I can understand to an extent, especially with all the bad and lopsided press.  And, I've encountered a couple of bad cops myself.  But, what if law enforcement were "taken out of the way"?  Or, what if was reduced to a thousandth of what it is?  Can you imagine the plunge (apostasy)?

I think of the two dams that are just down the road from me and about a mile apart---Barkley Dam and Kentucky Dam.  They control (or hinder) the Cumberland and Tennessee rivers and regulate flooding.  Not only this, but they are responsible for the formation and control of Barkley and Kentucky lakes (a "great commission"!).  In between these two lakes, there is the LBL (Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area).  Annnyway, when there's lots and lots of rain, these dams have their work cut out for them.  I've seen the level of Kentucky Lake high enough that it would splash over the closed gates.  I've seen the rivers, both of them, high enough that they looked like lakes.  It's a big thing around here---real big.  I've seen times when some of the locals, especially those adversely affected, would disparage the management of the dams.  Those below the dams will sometimes say, "If they don't close them (expletive) gates, my place is gonna flood!"  Those above the dams will sometimes say, "If they don't open them (expletive) gates, my place is gonna flood!"  Usually, things are in pretty good control.  Sometimes, they can only do what they can do.  There has been a time when there was serious concern over whether the dams would even hold.  What would it be if they were suddenly "taken out of the way"?  Well, one thing---The good they had done would soon be appreciated a little more.

When the NT Church and the work of Christ's Spirit through it is "taken out of the way,"  the good that His Spirit has effected through His Church will be able to be a little better appreciated.  Also, it should be realized that when the Church is gathered, this will not mean that the work of Christ's Spirit has completely ceased upon the earth.  There will be the 144,000 that will be indwelt by His Spirit, and the two witnesses, and those who turn to Christ during the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  In other words, there will still be some "salt" and "light" in the world---perhaps only a thousandth of what it had been, or less.  Hardly enough to go around, if you get my drift.  If "evil flourishes when good men do nothing,"  what will it be when they are taken?  It's gonna happen one day.  And, that day could be today---perhaps this hour.  Your position says not.  Jesus said, "Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/9/2022 at 4:56 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/9/2022 at 12:39 AM, not an echo said:

In I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3, we see that the gathering will be pre-Day of the Lord,

We don't see that at all. There is no timing in these verses. As in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2 we timing in relation to other events, the order of those events. There is no such order in the verses quoted above, only the fact of the gathering and it's nature and what occurs within the moment of the gathering. 

But you're saying we do see that in the verses you quoted so let's have a look:

"15By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. 17After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord."

I see nothing here directly stating the above described event happens before or after any moment for instance: Before the 70th week, during, after etc. Verse 16 is your proof. Well that verse is from Matt 24,

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31And He will send out His angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather His elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

which only occurs after the A of D and GT. Definitely a post GT gathering.

" 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

Was this a typo? I bet it was. This is about destruction, not a gathering. 

Like with what comes after the 7th Seal Diaste, you are in denial over the obvious.  The Scripture I referenced above---I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3---reads thus, without the verse and chapter divisions...

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This is not to mention the other prophetic puzzle pieces that converge with the 6th Seal, all of which support my position on the above and what I have so often showed.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

One should REALLY try to see the Lord's Coming in a LITERAL way! We DON'T "GO OFF TO HEAVEN!" Not even for a short visit! Yeshua`s business is HERE! And, in the Resurrection, that will be OUR business, too! We will "rule and reign with Him!" That will involve LEARNING how to "rule and reign," and it involves being sent to new countries (perhaps, the old countries with which we are most familiar) and rule there on the Messiah's behalf! That's why He will be called "the King of kings!" Those titles, the "King of kings" and "Master of masters," are all about a hierarchy that HE will build through US! 

And, when the earth and sky have been renewed and it is time for us to be in the New Jerusalem, the New Jerusalem comes HERE! We don't go to it, except in whatever vehicles we have available at the time or on foot.

I do. Scripture never says we go to heaven, only that we are caught up to meet the Lord in the clouds of the air with those resurrected who died in Christ. I honestly don't know where people come up with that, but they do.

From what I read NJ is either the representative of heaven or it is the realm of heaven come to earth. Either way it's all happening on earth with NJ as the throne of the King.

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I'll give you a hint: To what individuals is He prophesying?

I understand your point. All that is true but still does not change the fact we as individuals will be judged individually. Matt 25 is a prophecy of this. Consider:

"33Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of his good store of treasure, and the evil man brings evil things out of his evil store of treasure. 

36But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 

37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”"- Matt 12

"And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life.

And the dead were judged according to their deeds,

as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead,

and each one was judged according to his deeds." - Rev 20

Are there two judgements? 

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Like with what comes after the 7th Seal Diaste, you are in denial over the obvious.  The Scripture I referenced above---I Thessalonians 4:16-5:3---reads thus, without the verse and chapter divisions...

"For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the Trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.  But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.  For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.  For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

This is not to mention the other prophetic puzzle pieces that converge with the 6th Seal, all of which support my position on the above and what I have so often showed.

I'm not in denial. I know the gathering comes at the DOTL. What I dispute is the timeline you present, not the facts of the 2nd coming nor the gathering or when each occur in relation to other events.

[Diaste]

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Concerning your post as a whole, when I first read through it, I could see that you still do not understand my position---but I don't know how.  As many discussions as we have had, I'm thinking that if you don't yet understand my position any better than you evidenced above, then you may never.  But, I will try to clarify it for you further, in relation to the above.

I understand it. I reject the presupposition of a pretribulational rapture, dispensationalism and the rationale born of these two presupposition that lead to the required conclusions based on those two factors.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

First of all, I don't believe you have yet begun to really differentiate between the event of the sign appearance that Christ will make, which is shown with the opening of the 6th Seal in Revelation 6:12-7:17 (cp. Matt. 24:29-31) and the event of His Second Advent, which is shown much later, in Revelation 19:11-21 (cp. Matt. 24:26-28). 

Also, I see no evidence that you have a concept that there will be over seven years of time between these two events.

I very much do and I have said as much. What I have said is the 2nd advent comes on the heels of the Sign and directly so; as in Matt 24. I know you need a time separation of great length but I don't see where scripture supports such a scenario.

"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven," Simple enough, the Sign appears in heaven.

"and all the tribes of the earth will mourn." Again, this is pretty simple, the tribes of earth mourn based on seeing the sign. They know what's coming.

"They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory." And this is what's coming, the 2nd Advent. 

I don't see any great length of time between the the Sign and the 2nd advent. While the tribes mourn they see Jesus coming. Are the tribes mourning for 7 years? So the tribes of earth must mourn over the sign, which they all see, while trumpets sound, the beast runs amok, martyrs are slain and a demon horde astride chimeras destroy men and earth? 

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Also, I see no evidence that you have a concept that there will be over seven years of time between these two events.  Whether you agree, my position is based on this realization.  Moreover, based upon the convergence of the related prophetic puzzle pieces, the gathering of the Church will occur in conjunction with the event of the sign appearance Christ will make.  Now, with these things in mind, read again what all you have quoted of me above and you should better understand what I am saying.

Your conclusion is based on a personal realization required by presupposing a pretrib rapture and a church age dispensation. Both are false and unprovable premises. You keep pretending I don't understand. Why?

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

 But, by what you say after this, and elsewhere, you have the gathering also happening at Jesus' Second Advent. 

I do not! Scripture says so. Jesus says so. Paul says so. You aren't disputing that fact with me, you're disputing with them and the scriptures.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

So, I know that overall, we are not in agreement.  I would state it like this:  The man of sin will be revealed before Jesus' Second Advent, but not before the gathering, which happens in conjunction with the event of His Sign Appearance. 

Even though Paul clearly says both the coming of Jesus and the gathering are forever linked events occurring in the same time/space moment?

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

 

There will be some seven plus years between the event of Christ's Sign Appearance and the event of His Second Advent.  Again, agree or not, this is my position---and it aligns perfectly with Scripture.

Yes, it's your personal position. It only aligns internally not following logical rules, context nor the language. It just simply must be to satisfy the presuppositions of pretrib and church age dispensationalism.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Beyond this, I would like to comment on just a couple of other things...

I believe you are talking about II Thessalonians 2:6, instead of "v7", are you not?  I have never seen any translation that would support what you are here putting forth.  I must say, I really struggle with the NDV (New Diaste Version).  Sorry.

Verse 7. " only he who now letteth [will let], until he be taken out of the way."

This is, "monon arti katecho heos ginomai ek mesos" in the Greek.

Applied literally, "merely for now hold fast till coming into being in the middle."

This has nothing to do with the church or any other entity holding back evil. Paul is saying to wait till the beast arises in the middle of the week.

Mock all you like. That just builds my faith.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning Christ's Church, you make these statements:  "Still today it's said some divine entity is restraining evil on earth. [imagine thinking the church restrains evil! LOL]"  Then you say, "Well they aren't exactly doing a bang up job on that front, are they? And that's just from the evidence of evil that's in our face every day."  It remains a curious and troubling thing for me the way you disparage the Church.  I believe it would be in order for me to remind you that one day you will face Christ, and He "loved the Church, and gave Himself for it" (Eph. 5:25).  Moreover, He "is the Head of the Church" (Eph. 5:23).  Have you ever heard the saying, "Better to light a candle than to curse the darkness"?  Diaste, have you ever considered that, by your profession, you are a part of the Church you so disparage?

Big difference between the true church and the church organization. I'm lighting a candle. The truth is the light in the darkness. I love the church brothers. Not all who call themselves of Christ are of Christ, however. 

I get it. The truth is a bitter pill. A lie is sweet and comforting, like pretrib. But the lie shifts the focus to self and away from faith Jesus will see us through. The lie destroys trust and respect but it is smooth and easy to swallow. Might choke later though.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

When I contemplate what you say and the restraining of evil that is effected in this world by Christ's Spirit working through His Church, I think of all the controversy revolving around people of law enforcement these days.  Of course, there are very good policemen, very bad policemen, and everything in between (similarly with the Church/and there are tares).  We are living in a day that many disparage all policemen rather than respect any of them.  I can understand to an extent, especially with all the bad and lopsided press.  And, I've encountered a couple of bad cops myself.  But, what if law enforcement were "taken out of the way"?  Or, what if was reduced to a thousandth of what it is?  Can you imagine the plunge (apostasy)?

I think of the two dams that are just down the road from me and about a mile apart---Barkley Dam and Kentucky Dam.  They control (or hinder) the Cumberland and Tennessee rivers and regulate flooding.  Not only this, but they are responsible for the formation and control of Barkley and Kentucky lakes (a "great commission"!).  In between these two lakes, there is the LBL (Land Between the Lakes National Recreation Area).  Annnyway, when there's lots and lots of rain, these dams have their work cut out for them.  I've seen the level of Kentucky Lake high enough that it would splash over the closed gates.  I've seen the rivers, both of them, high enough that they looked like lakes.  It's a big thing around here---real big.  I've seen times when some of the locals, especially those adversely affected, would disparage the management of the dams.  Those below the dams will sometimes say, "If they don't close them (expletive) gates, my place is gonna flood!"  Those above the dams will sometimes say, "If they don't open them (expletive) gates, my place is gonna flood!"  Usually, things are in pretty good control.  Sometimes, they can only do what they can do.  There has been a time when there was serious concern over whether the dams would even hold.  What would it be if they were suddenly "taken out of the way"?  Well, one thing---The good they had done would soon be appreciated a little more.

The argument and the analogy fail in light the true meaning of verse 7.

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

When the NT Church and the work of Christ's Spirit through it is "taken out of the way",  the good that His Spirit has effected through His Church will be able to be a little better appreciated.  Also, it should be realized that when the Church is gathered, this will not mean that the work of Christ's Spirit has completely ceased upon the earth.  There will be the 144,000 that will be indwelt by His Spirit, and the two witnesses, and those who turn to Christ during the time of Daniel's 70th Week.  In other words, there will still be some "salt" and "light" in the world---perhaps only a thousandth of what it had been, or less.  Hardly enough to go around, if you get my drift.  If "evil flourishes when good men do nothing",  what will it be when they are taken?  It's gonna happen one day. 

It's not going to go down like this. You'll see. 

14 hours ago, not an echo said:

And, that day could be today---perhaps this hour.  Your position says not.  Jesus said, "Therefore be ye also ready:  for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matt. 24:44).

The reliance on this for a pretrib proof is preposterous in my opinion. It's an hour. It could be at any time with no restriction on the date. Pretrib forces a scenario from this that can't be supported by scripture[scripture contradicts the pretrib idea]. 

That hour spoken of could be in the middle of the GT and it would still be an hour 'ye think not'. 

It's odd to me this 'hour' was picked to be one that happens before anything else, a sort of date setting, when literally any hour of future history could be chosen. Why this one? It's only to satisfy the pretrib doctrine.

Best get ready. The beast is coming and you will see him. I mean, if we are still alive when it all begins, that is.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, Diaste said:

I understand your point. All that is true but still does not change the fact we as individuals will be judged individually. Matt 25 is a prophecy of this. Consider:

"33Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad; for a tree is known by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For out of the overflow of the heart, the mouth speaks. 35The good man brings good things out of his good store of treasure, and the evil man brings evil things out of his evil store of treasure. 

36But I tell you that men will give an account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. 

37For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned.”"- Matt 12

"And there were open books, and one of them was the Book of Life.

And the dead were judged according to their deeds,

as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up its dead, and Death and Hades gave up their dead,

and each one was judged according to his deeds." - Rev 20

Are there two judgements? 

Shalom, Diaste.

YES!!! There are TWO judgments portrayed here.

The First Judgment is STRICTLY a war tribunal that the King of Israel will impose upon the helping nations (the "sheep") and the losing nations (the "goats") of the war for His Land.

Psalm 2 is all about how certain kingdoms of the earth will not willingly submit to the rulership of YHWH God and His Anointed One. God LAUGHS at them!

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord (Hebrew: Adonay = "my Master") shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

6 "Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD hath said unto me,

"'"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel."'

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him!"

 

The Second Judgment is the Great White Throne Judgment that occurs at the END of the first 1,000 years of His Kingdom. The Millennium is NOT a "thousand years of peace," as is often suggested. It may be that for His own Kingdom, but for the rest of the world, it will be a time of SUBDUING ALL OF HIS ENEMIES!

No, Matthew 25 is NOT about the end of the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom; it's about the BEGINNING of His Kingdom, as is the rest of the Olivet Discourse! It's about His Second Coming and His reign beginning over Israel and the surrounding nations. Then, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28, He will continue to subdue other kingdoms and nations until He is the King of kings ("World Emperor"), and eventually He will subdue ALL of His enemies! Then, He will also conquer death, and death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire and Sulfur.

It is THEN that He turns over the Worldwide Empire to His Father, that God may be all in all!

With God the Father in charge of the Empire, the earth and sky will be renewed and the New Jerusalem, a literal city, will land upon an earth prepared to receive its size and weight. Then, the Son will be subject to His Father, but continues to reign over the house of Israel, forever.

[Uriah]

18 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

I understand your point.

 

Matt 25 vividly describes individuals receiving the result of the GWT judgment, "when the Son of Man comes". They are either sent into, "everlasting punishment" or, "life eternal" (Dan. 12:2, John 5:29). They are standing before the "throne" as also seen in Rev. 20 which cites their works/books being reviewed.

Edited August 19, 2022 by Uriah
erasure...oops!.