Is the Trump of God the Seventh Trumpet?

[Diaste]

On 8/25/2022 at 9:39 PM, not an echo said:

Understand, what I am here saying has nothing whatsoever to do with any kind of "term" or "condition" that you perceive that I am setting.  As I said in response to your calling what I am saying an "emotional pleading",  it is rather, "legitimately concerning."  Further, it has become even more so in the course of our discussion.

 

On 8/25/2022 at 9:39 PM, not an echo said:

Being mindful still of what I have said on this, I don't know what you are getting at with your last, or bottom line.  God can call at any hour He would like.  Those standing around idle could have thought that they would just hang out for an "eleventh hour" opportunity.  Like some today.  And, that's all fine and good---if the "eleventh hour" opportunity comes!  But, what if it doesn't?

If you speak you have done your work; plant and water, God gives the increase. Or He doesn't. You and I, no one in all history, is in control of when or if a person is saved. We are given to speak the testimony of salvation. We have no power to save anyone, early or late or anytime in between. That's the work of the Spirit. 

 

On 8/25/2022 at 9:39 PM, not an echo said:

I'm not sure where you are coming from here.  Sometimes  More often than not, I get the impression that you savor opportunities to get a dig in on the Church.  If I was going to call it (and I am being serious in a caring way), I would have to say that you have been hurt by one (or some) with a church affiliation---and perhaps worse than I can imagine.  Perhaps worse than you even realize.  I can understand.  I have sometimes said from behind the pulpit, "Nothing hurts like family problems.  But, second unto this is church problems."

Yes. But you know this already.

On 8/25/2022 at 9:39 PM, not an echo said:

Diaste, it is important to remember that God's children (which make up the Church) are all at different levels of maturity---and there are tares.  Also, remember that Jesus Christ "loved the Church, and gave Himself for it" (Eph. 5:25).  Also, we are enjoined to not forsake "the assembling of ourselves together, as the matter of some is; but to [exhort] one another:  and so much the more, as [we] see the day approaching" (Heb. 10:25).  Of course, much more can be said, and I know that it has been by others in the forum family.  I would just like to encourage you to not let those who are not what they should be hinder you from becoming all that the Father would desire for you to be---in the body of Christ (I Cor. 12:12-27;  Eph. 4:11-16).  The Father has a plan, and it is a Family Plan.  And, it can sometimes ofttimes hurt, but you will be the better---if you keep your eyes on the Lord.

I agree.

[not an echo]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:07 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/13/2022 at 11:45 PM, not an echo said:

Concerning your last sentence and persistent use of GT, this just clouds the truth.  More correctly and clear, no A of D, no Daniel's 70th Week.

That's not what Jesus said. This is what He said:

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 

21For at that time there will be great tribulation, unmatched from the beginning of the world until now, and never to be seen again. 22If those days had not been cut short, nobody would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, those days will be cut short.

From Matt 24:15-20 we don't see Daniel's 70th week. We see the warning to flee immediately and the dire circumstances for the religious and physically compromised. 

Then Jesus says, "For at that time..." Is that at the time of misery for the religious and pregnant? At the time of flight to the mountains? Both of those are a result of the A of D.

Jesus then labels that time people are told to flee quickly and immediately as well as the lament for the nursing mothers and the pregnant; great tribulation. 

I don't know what you think here...where is the mention of Daniel's 70th week? How is it the A of D is the midpoint of the week, then after that GT, but you claim it's the start of the week??

It isn't obvious the order is A of D then GT when Jesus specifies this is the order?

15So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’...

For at that time there will be great tribulation... 

Midpoint, then GT. No other scenario is possible according to Jesus.

Hello Diaste,

In accord with everything else I have shown, we know that there has been tribulation and great tribulation all down through the ages.  It goes without saying that after the 6th Seal is opened, there is going to be even greater tribulation, and during Daniel's 70th Week, the tribulation will become so very great that it will be just as Jesus said, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to [that] time, no, nor ever shall be."

When the 6th Seal is opened, the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will begin.  It will be a day of great, great tribulation.  Some five months (or more) later, when the world's stage is reset for the beginning of Daniel's 70 Week, things will still be bad, and things will get worse and worse until the nature of it will become as Jesus said.  Also, realize that the A of D will be the A of D before he shows himself for what he is.  That wolf in sheep's clothing will still be a wolf, no matter the time when the glimmer of his fangs is first seen.

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo

[WilliamL]

On 8/25/2022 at 5:21 PM, not an echo said:

As I am not yet very familiar with your overall position, how do you reconcile what you believe with what Jesus says, "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of Heaven, but My Father only" (Matt. 24:36)?

First of all, my positions are made abundantly clear in my blogs, and well-summarized in my siggy below. Index and summaries of blog articles here: https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/1403-index-and-summaries-of-articles/

That said, Jesus' statement is in the present tense, not future -- i. e., he did not say "no one will [ever] know." So that leaves the question open. Clearly he did not want his disciples to know ("it is not for you to know," Acts 1:7), but whether that refers to those in the end times cannot be presumed.

 

On 8/25/2022 at 5:21 PM, not an echo said:

With what is revealed to us in Scripture concerning this event, it is not hard to gather that Christ's appearance at this time will occur quickly and that what the people see of Him will be on the order of a glimpse.

Agree. Most likely a glimpse via "the eye single" (Lk. 11:34), the spiritual eye in man. Because everyone living and dead will see Him simultaneously.

On 8/25/2022 at 5:21 PM, not an echo said:

Was just wondering what your position is on "the sign of the Son of man in heaven" relative to Christ's Second Advent and what you make of the Last Trump relative to the 7th Trumpet.  I think we are in agreement that these two trumpets are not the same. 

Yes, they are not the same. I believe Paul's Last Trumpet was in reference to an old Jewish prophecy, explained here:

2. The Last Shofar: The Latter Horn of Redemption

    Provides the Hebraic background of, and explanation for, Paul’s use of the term “the Last Trumpet” in 1 Corinthians 15:51; then explains its connection to Paul’s often-ignored Rapture prophecy in Hebrews 12:18-28.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/840-the-last-shofar-the-latter-horn-of-redemption/

 

Regarding the "sign of the son of man in heaven," I suspect but do not claim that it will be the sign of the cross, a universally-recognized sign. Explained here:

7. “The Stars Will Fall From Heaven” = Pole Reversal?

Shows how passages from Matt. 24, Luke 21, and Rev. 6, 9, and 12, about the stars falling from heaven in the era of the Second Coming, together indicate a reversal of Earth’s poles. Evidence about such pole reversals in the past is presented for comparison.

https://www.worthychristianforums.com/blogs/entry/929-“the-stars-will-fall-from-heaven”-pole-reversal/

[JoeCanada]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

On 8/25/2022 at 4:21 PM, not an echo said:

With what is revealed to us in Scripture concerning this event, it is not hard to gather that Christ's appearance at this time will occur quickly and that what the people see of Him will be on the order of a glimpse.

Agree. Most likely a glimpse via "the eye single" (Lk. 11:34), the spiritual eye in man. Because everyone living and dead will see Him simultaneously.

Gentlemen, 

Why do you suppose that the appearance of Christ in the sky, when it is split apart at the 6th seal, will be just a glimpse?

A glimpse is a brief, incomplete view of something.

Yet, scripture teaches us:

"Every eye will see Him"....Rev 1:7

For this to happen, every eye would  simultaneously be focused on the sky

For the kings and great men and commanders  and slaves and free men in Rev 6:15 to say "Hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne"..... to 'see' that would be longer than a quick glimpse. And all of them together would have to again, be looking up, at the same time.

"Did you see that?..... What?.....Oh, you didn't see that?.... See what?

Know what I mean?

The second coming of our Lord, in all His shekinah glory.... will be the greatest event ever witnessed by the entire world.

After the sun is darkened and the moon not give its light..... (and this will be for a few days, 'cause no-one knows the day or the hour)..... then, the sky is split apart, and the brightness and shekinah glory of Jesus will be manifest for the whole world to see as He slowly descends from heaven, with lightening and thunder and fire from His throne, and myriads and myriads of angels, and a mighty trumpet blaring...... This my brothers, will even be seen by the dead, with a shout from Him who sits on the throne....

    .....ARISE.....

[WilliamL]

15 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

"Every eye will see Him"....Rev 1:7

For this to happen, every eye would  simultaneously be focused on the sky

For the kings and great men and commanders  and slaves and free men in Rev 6:15 to say "Hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne"..... to 'see' that would be longer than a quick glimpse. And all of them together would have to again, be looking up, at the same time.

The problem with this presumption of a physical viewing is that not everyone on the globe could see it. Because that is a physical impossibility: many people would be on the wrong side of the earth.

15 minutes ago, JoeCanada said:

This my brothers, will even be seen by the dead, with a shout from Him who sits on the throne....

And again, the dead in their graves would be able to see nothing. All that dirt would block the view.

However, with spiritual sight, as in prophetic vision, everything can be seen and comprehended in an instant. Actually, less than an instant, because there is no time at all in the spiritual realm. There is only time in the natural world of time and space.

So at one instant, you've seen nothing; at the next instant, you have the memory of having seen the vision and heard the voice. (Been there.)

Oh, and a final point: God the Father, who is spirit, cannot be seen by the natural eye. So again, these things must take place in a vision, just as was had by Stephen when he was being stoned.

Rest my case.

Edited August 30, 2022 by WilliamL
added final point

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

In accord with everything else I have shown, we know that there has been tribulation and great tribulation all down through the ages.  It goes without saying that after the 6th Seal is opened, there is going to be even greater tribulation, and during Daniel's 70th Week, the tribulation will become so very great that it will be just as Jesus said, "such as was not since the beginning of the world to [that] time, no, nor ever shall be."

When the 6th Seal is opened, the period of the last days' Day of the Lord judgment will begin.  It will be a day of great, great tribulation.  Some five months (or more later), when the world's stage is reset for the beginning of Daniel's 70 Week, things will still be bad, and things will get worse and worse until the nature of it will become as Jesus said.  Also, realize that the A of D will be the A of D before he shows himself for what he is.  That wolf in sheep's clothing will still be a wolf, no matter the time when the glimmer of his fangs is first seen.

Not saying there hasn't been.

What I'm saying is this GT is within the confines of the Olivet Discourse and hence, the end of the age, and even more narrowly in the last half of the week only after the A of D, as it is written:

So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination of desolation,’a described by the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let no one on the housetop come down to retrieve anything from his house. 18And let no one in the field return for his cloak.

19How miserable those days will be for pregnant and nursing mothers! 20Pray that your flight will not occur in the winter or on the Sabbath. 21For at that time there will be great tribulation,

It's not that there will be great tribulation when people flee to the mountains. It's not that there will be great tribulation when mothers lament their pregnancies or nursing, or that it's winter or the Sabbath.

It's that there will be GT  when the A of D occurs, as it's the A of D that's the signal to flee quickly leaving all behind, ruing pregnancy, nursing and the season and day of the week, as GT is on the heels of this abomination. 

That's the order and it's not going to change. 

[not an echo]

On 8/14/2022 at 5:52 AM, Diaste said:

  On 8/13/2022 at 9:56 PM, not an echo said:

Hello Diaste,

Where do you see the following that John sees (in the interlude between the 6th and 7th Seals) picking back up?  Note from Revelation 7...

1 And after these things (what happened with the opening of the 6th Seal) I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, TILL we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

On 8/14/2022 at 5:52 AM, Diaste said:

But I know what you are getting at. You propose the 4 angels holding back the winds are four angels of the trumps that are given to hurt the earth and sea and trees. From that you have evidence to conclude the trumps cannot sound till after the 7th seal opens.

Perhaps these four angels (7:1-3) are in the number of the seven that are given the trumpets (8:2), but we are not explicitly told this.  I do, however, see possibilities, and the kinship is interesting.  There is also another angel in the mix (8:3), so again, I see possibilities.  Presently, I can see the first angel (of the seven) sounding his trumpet, and the four angels of 7:1-3 (or one of them), being responsible for what then takes place.  Then, the second angel sounding his trumpet, and the four angels of 7:1-3 (or another of them), being responsible for what then takes place.  And so forth.  Later you say, "3 angels harm the land and sea and trees, not four."  I (with you) don't see what happens with the sounding of the 4th Trumpet actually harming "the land and sea and trees" or, for that matter, the sun, the moon, and the stars (cp. 8:12), but rather, having to do with the resulting suspension of vapor, smoke, and dust that would obstruct the light of these, so that from man's perspective on earth, day and nighttime light is affected by one-third.  Note that the same sort of thing causes the sun to be darkened during the period of the 5th Trumpet (9:2).

The main thing with what I point out concerning the four angels of 7:1-3 is that they are told, "Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till...,"  and we see the "till" picking back up after the 30 minutes of anticipatory silence that follows the opening of the last or 7th Seal.

This just goes to further support my position that what John sees after the opening of the 7th Seal cannot take place---till after the opening of the 7th Seal.  Meaning, there is simple and logical structure and chronology here, and we do not have the liberty to mix everything up.  As I have acknowledged, on the surface, it can be seen why it might be initially supposed that the "Last Trump" Paul speaks of in I Corinthians 15:52 is the trumpet sounded by the "seventh angel" of Revelation 11:15.  But, this is merely a surface impression that does not give due consideration to what is below the surface.  Makes me think of a time when I went with how things appeared on the surface and when I dived in, I crunched my neck.  While I did get over it, I also learned a valuable lesson.

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/14/2022 at 6:07 AM, Diaste said:

On 8/13/2022 at 10:17 PM, not an echo said:

Yes.  If you look again, I said, "I would recommend that you again consider the opening post (and the whole) of my thread, The Chronological Order of the Revelation (https://www.worthychristianforums.com/topic/249470-the-chronological-order-of-the-revelation/).  Of course, I still recommend that you do that.  One of these days, when you see what I'm showing, you are not going to be able to unsee it.  Then, you won't need those "3 or 4 large walls" you talked about below "to create an accurate timeline."  The Revelation has structure that is much, much, more Divine than that.  I'm confident that you will be on your way to seeing it before very much longer.

You said:

On 3/7/2020 at 2:02 PM, not an echo said:

No back and forth, no overlap, no repeating of anything, just chronological information laid out as simply as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10.

Correct me if I didn't get it right but I'm pretty sure you think the last week doesn't begin till the 6th seal. Is that right? Or was it the 7th trump? 

How is this possible "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound his trumpet, the mystery of God will be fulfilled," but the week hasn't begun yet? 

Concerning your first paragraph, there is no evidence of "the last week" (Daniel's 70th Week) having actually begun until Revelation 11:1-3ff.  This is during the period of the 6th Trumpet, which is blown at sometime before (Rev. 9:13).  Concerning your question, "Or was it the 7th trump,"  this is sounded at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week.  A simple evidence of this is seen in Revelation 11:3-14 (the first 3-1/2 years), noting especially the wording of verse 14.

Concerning the question of your second paragraph, I believe I just answered it.

Also, before I pushed Submit Reply, I looked again at what you quoted of me.  Realize that what I say concerning the numbers 1-10 only has to do with the chapters 1-10.  Have you realized this?

Edited May 30, 2023 by not an echo

[not an echo]

On 8/14/2022 at 9:54 AM, JoeCanada said:

On 8/13/2022 at 11:39 PM, not an echo said:

On 8/4/2022 at 10:40 AM, JoeCanada said:

Regarding...."The silence when He opened the 7th seal"

Could it be that Jesus just "left the building?"

Look at Psa 65:1-4:

There will be silence before You, and praise in Zion, O God,
And to You the vow will be performed.
O You who hear prayer,
To You all men come.
Iniquities prevail against me;
As for our transgressions, You forgive them.
How blessed is the one whom You choose and bring near to You
To dwell in Your courts.
We will be satisfied with the goodness of Your house,
Your holy temple.

Perhaps.....

This is the actual moment (the 1/2 hour) when Jesus descends and brings the saints home.

Expand  

Hello Joe,

Concerning your conclusion, why would you conclude this instead of what John recorded that he saw next?

not an echo,

I didn't actually conclude this. I merely offered another 'what if' interpretation.

That's why I said 'Could it be'.....

But, looking at Rev 7:2..... 'And I saw another angel ascending from the rising sun, having the seal of the living God....'

Is it possible that this angel is the Lord Himself? I think it could be .....

And..... it would then make sense that the '1/2 hr silence in heaven', along with 'praise in Zion' on earth,  because Jesus has left heaven and has Himself sealed the 144,000.....(the reason for praise in Zion) along with the resurrecting's of the dead saints and  the rapture of the living saints.

Rev 7 is a parenthetical section. Is it chronological with the rest of the narrative of chapter 6 and 8? Maybe...maybe not. The other parenthetical chapters are not chronological with the preceding narrative.... like chapters 12, 13, 14....17,18

These are just things to consider. 

Hello Joe,

Concerning your last statement, okay.

[Diaste]

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your first paragraph, there is no evidence of "the last week" (Daniel's 70th Week) having actually begun until Revelation 11:1-3ff.  This is during the period of the 6th Trumpet, which is blown at sometime before (Rev. 9:13). 

Okay. The 6th trumpet begins the week. So the Euphrates is dried up and a demon army astride chimeras[for lack of an apt term] marches to begin the week? 

 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning your question, "Or was it the 7th trump?",  this is sounded at the mid-point of Daniel's 70th Week.  A simple evidence of this is seen in Revelation 11:3-14 (the first 3-1/2 years), noting especially the wording of verse 14.

You really should look at the Greek. The concepts in the terms are quite fascinating. For instance in verse 14 of the 11th chapter of Revelation it's not 'next' or 'soon' or 'rapidly on the heels of what came before', it's 'without unnecessary delay'. It's going to occur when it was predetermined to occur and not a minute later or earlier.

It looks like you may be suggesting the two witnesses are a 'woe'. They are not. The final three trumps are the woes as the angel proclaimed:

Rev 8:13

"And as I observed, I heard an eagle flying overhead, calling in a loud voice, “Woe! Woe! Woe to those who dwell on the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the remaining three angels!”"

So the 5th, 6th and 7th trump are the woes, not the witnesses. The prophecy of the witnesses doesn't fit into the timeline when it's presented in Rev 11. That prophecy and the ministry of the witnesses isn't a woe and is not manifest this late in the timeline. There are good reasons for this which I have presented previously. 

5 hours ago, not an echo said:

Concerning the question of your second paragraph, I believe I just answered it.

Also, before I pushed Submit Reply, I looked again at what you quoted of me.  Realize that what I say concerning the numbers 1-10 only has to do with the chapters 1-10.  Have you realized this?

I don't know what you mean. I assumed that, yes. Was there more to it?