Is the Charismatic Movement Dangerous and Heretical?

[Justin Adams]

I used to play (guitar) the Ian Mitchel folk mass at the downtown Cathedral with the Spanish Choir. On occasion the 'actual' American choir would let them into the 'proper' Choir stalls. I recall the many Spanish songs that I did not understand very well, but the local largely Spanish people would flock there on a Sunday afternoon. It was good.

[Billiards Ball]

On 5/8/2021 at 12:44 AM, Paul James said:

Today I have been part of a spirited discussion in the John MacArthur Facebook group concerning his quote that the Charismatic Movement is dangerous.  Some of the commenters have accused Charismatics of being demon possessed.

I referred to 1 John by way of challenge to say that accusing brothers and sisters in Christ of being heretical, demon-possessed and therefore dangerous to the body of Christ, is expressing a form of hatred for Charismatics in general and therefore falling well below what the Lord requires of the standard of love toward our brothers and sisters in Christ that show evidence of being truly filled with the Spirit.

Jesus said that having even negative and resentful thoughts about others is equivalent to hating them.   Of course, the anti-Charismatic folk on the Facebook page accused me of being hypocritical, even though I'm not even a Charismatic, but a Presbyterian in a Union Methodist/Presbyterian church.

So, I asked them how they defined "Charismatic", and so far they have not answered me.

I wonder, what is your definition of "Charismatic"?  It would be interested to know what people thought of Charismatics and who they actually are.

Charismatics disobey rules for spiritual gift usage.

Spirit-filled believers have orderly services and lives.

[Guest kingdombrat]

4 minutes ago, Billiards Ball said:

Charismatics disobey rules for spiritual gift usage.

Spirit-filled believers have orderly services and lives.

Show me an example of an actual Spirit filled Church?

[Waggles]

5 hours ago, kingdombrat said:

Show me an example of an actual Spirit filled Church?

Home - THE REVIVAL FELLOWSHIP, FRESNO (trffresno.org) 

[Marilyn C]

13 hours ago, Paul James said:

I am in a bit of a quandary.  I believe in the continuation of the gifts, but don't see much evidence of the genuine gifts happening in the churches I have belonged to, even in the Charismatic churches I was with in the 1960s-70s. 

Hi Paul,

Yes you have highlighted the trouble - man`s organisations. Remember Jesus said `:Go make disciples....` well He didn`t say `: Go make meetings and make them your focus.."

The believers are to do the work of the ministry, and that is in everyday life all over this planet. We are not going to see it all, but I believe Jesus the Head of the Body knows what He is doing and His Holy Spirit is working in individual`s lives distributing His gifts where He thinks necessary.

Have you read `Chasing the Dragon,` by Jackie Pullinger. She was a young lady who went to Hong Kong in the `70`s and ministered to those on drugs in the Walled city. God did amazing things through her and those she discipled. I met her when I was in NZ in the early `80`s.

There are so many God is working through in the `highways and byways` of life. And we will generally not hear of them for they do not go on the TV or hold big meetings. They are in the dust and dirt of everyday life.

Hope that is an encouragement to you bro. Marilyn.

[Paul James]

8 hours ago, Starise said:

I have read here what seem to me to be contradictions with some opinions. I am not going to address these because I think it isn't really relevant to the discussion and is instead something to be realized in another way.

Short term visits to any assembly will necessarily be the "honeymoon phase" of the visits. Longer more intimate connection to the church will disclose things not originally seen. Similarly long term "superficial" awareness or maybe even the ostrich effect are at play in some. 

 This is why I think the testimony of @Paul James and others who were firmly planted in these congregations for a series of years is so very telling. To be fair, even in the best churches we will get into the "riff raff" that follows them all to some degree. There is division between this common occurrence of human fallibility and outright false teaching.

Two extremes exist commonly at times  between the spiritually open churches such as Assemblies of God, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Holiness and Charismatics .vs Baptists, Methodists, Lutheran, Presbyterian and similar. Those extremes are Coercion/manipulation .vs Quenching the Spirit. 

We have already covered the ways in which some assemblies "induce" a counterfeit spiritual experience. How do those denominations which are in the other camps quench the Spirit? This might follow up with the question- Does the attempt to put a limitation on the Spirit truly limit the Spirit of God? This seems to place how the Spirit works in men's hands.

I have seen that being "open" to anything can be much too open to anything including false things. How does that work in an opposite way? If a congregant of congregants are filled with an inclination to use a spiritual gift in a spiritually closed church how might this look in action? I don't see a spiritually anally retentive church preventing the Spirit from working. 

It is US who decide not to flow. Do you agree.disagree?

The Holy Spirit dwells in us, not outside of us.  The way He moves is dependent on us.  This is how the Lord chose to do it, because it is a partnership of fellowship between us and Him, and He sent the Holy Spirit to indwell us so that the partnership in ministry can continue.

Those who desire to do the will of God in their lives and ministries, will seek Him and receive wisdom from the Spirit on how He wants them to work in cooperation with Him to fulfill His mission, which is to save sinners.

If we want to know the will of God, we need to read the Bible and see what the Spirit wants to tell us out of it.  Then to do the will of God, we need to do the Bible.

We can cooperate with the Holy Spirit by seeking for and using the best gifts that suit the will of God for us.  Or we can quench the Spirit by deciding not to participate in actions which we believe are not relevant for today.   The Holy Spirit will not force us to do what we don't want to do.  But we will be required to give an account before the judgment seat of Christ for the way we cooperated or didn't cooperate with the Spirit during the span of our lives and ministry.

There are those who have decided that it is not the will of God for them to exercise the supernatural gifts of the Spirit;  mainly through the teaching of man's opinions to try and justify to themselves why the gifts ceased after the 4th Century.  The Holy Spirit won't force them to use the gifts, but when they come up before the Lord at the judgment, He will ask them why they subscribed to the opinions of man instead of what He showed them in the written Word.

Those who cooperated with the Holy Spirit on the basis of what He showed them in the Word will receive rewards from the Lord.  It won't matter if their cooperation is imperfect, because we have the treasure in earthen vessels, and we are limited by our restricted vision and knowledge.  But He will see that we have a heart to cooperate with the Spirit even though others around us limit what we can do, especially if we are in a non-Charismatic church where the leadership and others believe that the gifts have ceased.

 

[Paul James]

8 hours ago, Josheb said:

My regrets for coming to the party late. 

I am not a fan of charismania, but neither am I a fan of MacArthur. Both have problems ecclesiologically and eschatologically so MacArthur criticizing Charismatic experientialism is a bit like the kettle calling the pot black. 

I understand the Christian Charismatic theology simply as those sects who place an (inordinate) emphasis on the work of the Holy Spirit in the life of a believer as taught by the likes of Charles Parham and exemplified by the Azusa Street Revival. The work of the HS is a completely scriptural condition but to emphasize it to say one knows and/or can measure their or another's soteriological conversion based on an experience whereby the Spirit has observably manifested itself in a single event is not a scriptural teaching. Now the Charismatic "movement" is something more or different than merely the theology. 

It's a little curious that you identify as Presbyterian/Methodist first because the two methodism and Knoxian Presbyterianism are normally disparate theologies, and second because there is an established history of charismatic renewal" in the reformed end of Christian denoms like the Lutherans, Presbyterians, and Anglicans/Episcopalians. I came to Christ in a conservative evangelical charismatic Episcopal congregation and am currently worshipping in an evangelical Presbyterian congregation. 

"Charismatic," as opposed to "charismatic" refers to the view the grace (Gk.: charis) of the Holy Spirit are (still) available to Christians of all eras and at work in the Church today. This belief looks much different in the mind s and hands of Pentecostals than it does Presbyterians. For one the Charismatic Pentecostal is likely to teach everyone has a gift, where as the more reformed end of the spectrum will note texts like Ephesians 4 says "some," not "all," and the latter is much more likely to follow the guidelines found in scripture regarding tongues (such as requiring an interpretation) and not expect everyone to "have a tongue."

There are charismatic groups within the non-Pentecostal churches that you mention, and they don't follow the same line as Parnham and other historical Pentecostals.  Where the minister and elders of, say a Baptist church embraces the charismatic in their midst, the church becomes identified as a "charismatic" Baptist church.  The charisma there is a combination of the Baptist tradition, doctrine, and the use of the gifts of the Spirit.  In this way, they are practiced in quite different ways in services than in Pentecostal services.

[Paul James]

7 hours ago, Billiards Ball said:

Charismatics disobey rules for spiritual gift usage.

Spirit-filled believers have orderly services and lives.

I would qualify your first sentence with "Some Charismatics", etc., because the definition of a "charismatic" (small c) is one who is certainly Spirit-filled and who believes that the nine supernatural gifts of the Spirit are the Spirit's "tools" for building up the body of Christ and strengthening believers' faith in Christ.

The charismatic is found in many denominational churches, and the rules of those churches are faithfully followed.  This makes a Baptist, Anglican, or Presbyterian charismatic quite different to a charismatic in a Pentecostal or an independent Charismatic church.

It is quite true that there are some churches that label themselves as "Charismatic" (with a capital C) that set their own rules contrary to the Scriptures according to the "new" revelation that their leaders receive.  This is why there are Hindu mind-control and occult spiritualism practices, along with out-of-control trance-like and kundalini manifestations, none of which are found, let alone supported by the New Testament.

But even then, this is not true of all Pentecostal or Charismatic churches.  There are those who have strict rules based on the New Testament, and are quick to correct any of the lunatic fringe who break them.

So, we must be careful not to generalize about the Charismatic movement, because one day we will all have to stand before Christ at the Judgment and give account concerning what we do and teach others to do or not to do.

[Paul James]

1 hour ago, Marilyn C said:

Hi Paul,

Yes you have highlighted the trouble - man`s organisations. Remember Jesus said `:Go make disciples....` well He didn`t say `: Go make meetings and make them your focus.."

The believers are to do the work of the ministry, and that is in everyday life all over this planet. We are not going to see it all, but I believe Jesus the Head of the Body knows what He is doing and His Holy Spirit is working in individual`s lives distributing His gifts where He thinks necessary.

Have you read `Chasing the Dragon,` by Jackie Pullinger. She was a young lady who went to Hong Kong in the `70`s and ministered to those on drugs in the Walled city. God did amazing things through her and those she discipled. I met her when I was in NZ in the early `80`s.

There are so many God is working through in the `highways and byways` of life. And we will generally not hear of them for they do not go on the TV or hold big meetings. They are in the dust and dirt of everyday life.

Hope that is an encouragement to you bro. Marilyn.

I agree.  The miracles that happen are not usually in the public eye, and not always spectacular.    The greatest miracle is a pagan, deeply caught in the occult, receiving the light of the Gospel, turning to Christ and being totally transformed by the Holy Spirit.   Often it is a healing miracle witnessed that shows the pagans that Jesus Christ is more powerful than their own idols.  Smith Wigglesworth was used by the Holy Spirit to bring miracles of healing to people in their own homes, as much as in his meetings.  This shows that the miracles are not recorded on Youtube, and therefore most people never know about them save those close to the person who was healed.

It is not always spectacular either.  My work supervisor developed arthritis in her knee.  She is not a Christian.  She knew I was, and believed in divine healing, and I asked her if she would like me to pray for her knee.  She agreed.  Three weeks later, she went to the doctor, and although the arthritis was originally diagnosed through Xray, the subsequent Xray showed no sign of it.  The doctor concluded that it was a "temporary" arthritis.  Arthritis is certainly not temporary, but that was the only conclusion that the puzzled doctor could come up with.   All I did when I prayed was to get her to put her own hand on her knee, and I put my hand on hers and said, "Jesus heals this knee".  Then we went back to our work.  The prayer took 5 seconds.

[Starise]

15 hours ago, Paul James said:

There are those who have decided that it is not the will of God for them to exercise the supernatural gifts of the Spirit;  mainly through the teaching of man's opinions to try and justify to themselves why the gifts ceased after the 4th Century.  The Holy Spirit won't force them to use the gifts, but when they come up before the Lord at the judgment, He will ask them why they subscribed to the opinions of man instead of what He showed them in the written Word.

Thanks for your comments @Paul James

I would say they don't believe the "gifts" as put forth in the Charismatic movement and therefore they don't see themselves as rejecting anything. At least this has been my experience. Dispensationalists tend to believe the gifts many Pentecostal and Charismatic groups churches emphasize were intended for a certain time and place. They would argue that in emphasizing certain minor gifts this is also a man's opinion or invention. Aside from dispensational belief, God does say there is a time and a place for everything under the sun. How one chooses to interpret this might lead them in another direction. 

I see the whole thing much like a person attempting to make a kite gain altitude on a day when there is no wind. If there is wind the kite will fly. If there is no wind you either need to run yourself to death,find a very large fan or add powered propellers to keep the kite aloft.

This is how I see many assemblies who over emphasize certain gifts as a litmus to spirituality. Tongues seems to come up over and over again and it is one of the LEAST of the gifts.

My argument has always been if it's real and peoples hearts are right then the same things will materialize across any body of believers with open willing Spirit filled hearts. That clearly doesn't happen. It only happens in places where someone is attempting to artificially induce wind into the kite.

Movements that came along in a certain time frame cause me to wonder why it didn't happen more before that? Why did we need a movement for it to supposedly happen? 

Revival has been mentioned. One church I attended had these revivals which were week long nightly church services. Sometimes with a guest speaker, sometimes not. Most of those were simply calls for people to "get right" with God. I believe many people sincerely pulled closer to God through them. I see an element of that in some so called charismatic circles as a group of people who simply want to get right with God. Not necessarily looking for any outward showing of a "gift". I believe God will reward that no matter what you call it. 

I don't ever recall any showing of the "gifts" during any of these revivals. People just went up front. Many of them crying with sincere hearts confessing their sins. Some of them unemotional yet who knows what goes on in a man's heart?

The real danger I see is in laying a guilt trip on people and telling them they will have to give an account to God because they didn't seek the gifts when they had no inclination to do that or any knowledge of a requirement. If God calls us as totally hopeless sinners to Himself then He also inclines us to our calling whatever it is and whatever it involves.

That's just me hollering my .00000000002 but I think it holds some value