Polycarp

[Your closest friendnt]

2 minutes ago, Josheb said:

Thanks but the question was asked specifically of Heleadethme based on something specific Heleadethme specifically posted. I hope you'll understand if I wait on her response before replying further. 

 

 

I was appointed to be her guardian angel. 

Certainly you did not have the power to stop me this time.  

[Your closest friendnt]

3 minutes ago, Josheb said:

How about if I walk you through the relevant texts instead of doing the exegesis for you? 

Let's start with the word "all." I have previously argued the word "near" means near and scripture never uses the word to mean anything than what it means in ordinary usage. Is that true of the word "all"? Does "all" always mean all in scripture and if so to which "all" does it refer? All Jews? All Christians? All who pierced Jesus? All people in the known world? All people on earth at the given moment? All people in all the world around the globe in every generation, epoch, and era? 

Can you give me an example in scripture where "all" is a literal all? Can you give me an example in scripture where "all" is not literal all?

Jesus Christ died for all inclusive "all", for everyone who had died before him and who was living at the time of his death and everyone else there after.  

God has provided only one Savior for the whole world.

No one is Saved outside Jesus Christ. 

We see that Elijah and Moses both believe and were heard discussing what will happen to Jesus Christ and they came from Heaven. 

In this way we know that it was known in Heaven what will happen to Jesus Christ it was not hidden from them. 

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you understand if we take that literally the all that we are discussing happened in the first century? 

When did the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem look upon the one who they pierced?

Shalom, Josheb.

No, this won't happen until the Second Coming. It will be THEN that the resurrected will look upon the One whom they pierced.

[Uriah]

2 hours ago, Josheb said:

How about if I walk you through the relevant texts instead of doing the exegesis for you? 

Let's start with the word "all." I have previously argued the word "near" means near and scripture never uses the word to mean anything than what it means in ordinary usage. Is that true of the word "all"? Does "all" always mean all in scripture and if so to which "all" does it refer? All Jews? All Christians? All who pierced Jesus? All people in the known world? All people on earth at the given moment? All people in all the world around the globe in every generation, epoch, and era? 

Can you give me an example in scripture where "all" is a literal all? Can you give me an example in scripture where "all" is not literal all?

You seem relatively intelligent. Capable of answering me if you wanted to. I will ask no more, I have the answer from your non answers. You might call it an exegesis on what you have stated: multiple evasions, answering questions with questions, changing the subject/question, non direct, etc, etc. 

I've been patient but it doesn't seem very sincere now, like toying with me, not appreciated.

[Guest kingdombrat]

2 hours ago, Your closest friendnt said:

I was appointed to be her guardian angel. 

Certainly you did not have the power to stop me this time.  

BEST Post of the Year!

[Retrobyter]

3 hours ago, Josheb said:

Verse  three says it is near, at hand, about to occur. 

Shalom, Josheb.

What verse 3 says in the Greek translated directly is ...

3 Happy [is] the-one reading and those hearing the words of-the prophecy and keeping the-things in it having-been-written for the opportunity/suitable-time [is] near.

It does NOT refer to the Messiah's coming, which is usually the word parousia.

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Yes, everyone will look upon Christ with bent knee in the end when he hand the kingdoms to his Father.

He hands His Kingdom (consisting of conquered and subdued kingdoms) to the Father at the END of the Millennium (1 Cor. 15:20-28), which is the FIRST 1000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom. They SHALL bend the knee to Him AT LEAST at that time! Some WILL bend the knee; others would rather not, but they SHALL anyway! Individually, those over whom He rules shall bend the knee to Him THROUGHOUT the Millennium, as He grows His Kingdom. His Kingdom will start out small, like a grain of mustard seed or like a stone cut out of a mountain, but it will GROW into an herb the size of a small tree or a mountain that encompasses the world!

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How many times do you think all will see him?

Once at his coming; however, as He grows His Kingdom and it's influence, like leaven, begins to permeate the world, many more times, as He makes world-affecting announcements. They will hang on His every word, because like E. F. Hutton, when He speaks, everyone will listen! It's in their best financial interest to listen!

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Do you think Philippians 2:10-11 is about the Second Coming?

Yes, and throughout the Millennium after His Second Coming.

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How about 2 Corinthians 5:10; is that about the Second Coming?

ABSOLUTELY! And, again, it will be true throughout the Millennium! See, one of the "jobs" of a King of Israel is to be the Supreme Court of the Kingdom; like Shlomoh haMelekh ("King Solomon") of old, He will judge the important matters, delegating lesser matters to the judges below Him. Each town under His authority will have its own judge who will decide matters as he can, but if it's a matter too hard for him to judge, he will escalate the matter to his superior. His superior, too, will handle the harder matters, unless that too is beyond the superior judge. Then, he will escalate the matter to a king above him. If the king cannot handle the matter, then he will escalate the matter to the King of kings, the World Emperor, Yeshua` haMelekh ("King Jesus").

EVERY INFRACTION that has not been dealt with, even in THIS lifetime, shall be handled by the King. And so, "we shall ALL appear before the Judgment Seat of the Messiah that each one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." Why do you think it will take a THOUSAND YEARS?!

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How about Matthew 16:27?

Yes, that is precisely and concisely what I'm talking about.

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How about Romans 2:16?

Yep. Consider the context:

Romans 2:12-16 (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law (outside of the law) shall also perish without law (outside of the law): and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13(For not the hearers of the law are just [justified] before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. 14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: 15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

And, what was Paul's gospel, his "good news?" The same as His Master's (2 Cor. 2:12). And, what was the Messiah's gospel?

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV)

14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, 15 And saying,

"The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel."

And, what did the children of Israel, particularly the Jews, know about the "gospel?"

Isaiah 9: (KJV)

1 Nevertheless the dimness shall not be such as was in her vexation, when at the first he lightly afflicted the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward did more grievously afflict her by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, in Galilee of the nations.
2 The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.
3 Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
4 For thou hast broken the yoke of his burden, and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Midian.
5 For every battle of the warrior is with confused noise, and garments rolled in blood; but this shall be with burning and fuel of fire.
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

Isaiah 52:7 (KJV)

7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good (gospel), that publisheth salvation (rescue; deliverance); that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!

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Hebrews 9:27?

You bet!

Hebrews 9:27-28 (KJV)

27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ (the Messiah) was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him (the Messiah) shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation (rescue; deliverance).

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Everyone: Think about how much this futurist eschatology cuts up the Bible in order to explain it. 

No "cutting up" necessary! The Scriptures promise God will rule and reign over men through His Messiah - His Emissary - His Anointed One, just as He did through His Messiah, King David! The Scriptures are replete with this knowledge!

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Retrobyter: None of the people who pierced Jesus will be alive in the future. You have unregenerate dead people seeing Jesus. Was that intended?

LOL! Now, I KNOW you aren't listening to the Scriptures literally!

Do you think this was all just symbolic somehow? NO, this is LITERAL! This is what God will perform! Ezekiel just saw the future, as all the prophets did!

Ezekiel 37:1-14 (KJV)

1 The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full of bones, 2 And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry. 3 And he said unto me,

"Son of man, can these bones live?"

And I answered,

"O Lord GOD, thou knowest."

4 Again he said unto me,

"Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, 'O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. 5 Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; "Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live: 6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD."'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. 8 And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. 9 Then said he unto me,

"Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; "Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live."'"

10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. 11 Then he said unto me,

"Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, 'Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.' 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them, 'Thus saith the Lord GOD; "Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. 13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it," saith the LORD.'"

Would to GOD that you would see the truth! The four names in Zechariah 12 appear again in the lineage of the Messiah in Luke 3! The people with these names, representing their families AT THAT TIME IN HISTORY, will be alive again to witness the event! The Resurrection that accompanies the Second Coming is REAL! It's not just some fiction that futurists believe! It's not some figurative language meaning something else! It's our BLESSED HOPE!

Titus 2:11-14 (KJV)

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation (rescue; deliverance) hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious (bright) appearing of the great God and our Saviour (Rescuer) Jesus Christ (Yeshua` the Messiah); 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Furthermore, whether they know it or admit it, yet, it is Israel's blessed hope, as well!

Isaiah 66:5-24 (KJV)

5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word;

"Your brethren that hated you, that cast you out for my name's sake, said, 'Let the LORD be glorified': but he shall appear to your joy, and they shall be ashamed."

6 A voice of noise from the city, a voice from the temple, a voice of the LORD that rendereth recompence to his enemies.
7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.
8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

9 "Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth?" saith the LORD: "shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb?" saith thy God.

10 "Rejoice ye with Jerusalem, and be glad with her, all ye that love her: rejoice for joy with her, all ye that mourn for her:
11 That ye may suck, and be satisfied with the breasts of her consolations; that ye may milk out, and be delighted with the abundance of her glory."

12 For thus saith the LORD,

"Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees. 13 As one whom his mother comforteth, so will I comfort you; and ye shall be comforted in Jerusalem."

14 And when ye see this, your heart shall rejoice, and your bones shall flourish like an herb: and the hand of the LORD shall be known toward his servants, and his indignation toward his enemies.

15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire. 16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

17 "They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh (pork), and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together," saith the LORD.

18 "For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory. 19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles. 20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites," saith the LORD.

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me," saith the LORD, "so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship (to bow down) before me," saith the LORD.

24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

ALL of the people who pierced Jesus will be alive in the future. You have unregenerate, once-dead people seeing Jesus and finally accepting Him as their Messiah. That was indeed intended!

Woo-Hoo! GOD WINS AGAIN!

Edited May 18, 2021 by Retrobyter
forgot to fill out a Scripture reference

[Justin Adams]

Amazing how many believers are bent on extolling the 'fact' that Yeshua is NOT now Ruling and Reigning. Their eschatology tries to PROVE He is not in COMPLETE CONTROL right now. How many believers have been taught to short-circuit the facts of the Gospel of Grace; that we are Ruling and Reigning with Christ in heavenly places right now.

How many are trying to prove that God's Omnipotence and Sovereign Reign is not real? How many actually speak against the Gospel?

With friends like that, who needs enemies?

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Josheb said:

No, you do not.  

Oh, so NOW you are going to answer? (no)

I was simply trying to avoid a situation in which everything is explained to you when we could be having a more interactive conversation. 

As I assumed. The strategy.

Straw man. I did not call my question or invitation to walk through the scriptures with you exegesis. I called the examination of scripture previously provided exegesis; something you posted was, "Truly an impressive caliber of expressing the scriptural connectivity." Perhaps that was stated rhetorically and not sincerely. What questions I have understood I have answered; more than ten pages of them by my count. 

No rhetoric, you CAN answer, if you would actually do so.

The evidence indicates otherwise. Evidence of one side only?

Yes, the problem of negative attribution can be severe and fatal to cogent discourse. Happens often in discussion boards. 

What do you expect? So is not being forthright fatal, changing the question etc..It is NOT collaborative or reciprocal.

I will happily answer your question..I'll keep my eyes open for that

if still interested but the lengthier examinations of scripture take time and I don't have much of that this morning. It would be my preference, after ten+ pages of Q&A, if we were more collaborative examining the scriptures. That invitation may have been unanticipated but it was sincere. If I post answers to my inquiries and you then reciprocate that makes for a much better set of exchanges. Ask the others here with whom you're trading posts. We do not all agree on all things but we have managed to mete out some modicum of reciprocity even when we disagree. I can assure you they do not all always agree with me. Yet I am equally sure they will bear witness to the potential efficacy of what I asked of you. 

As a general practice I affirm that which bears consistency with the whole of God's word. I inquire about that which either I do not adequately understand or that which is unclear. I refute that which does not bear consistency with whole scripture. Your fellow posters will bear witness to that practice. 

 

If you can provide some reciprocity, beginning with answers to how the scriptures treat the word "all" then we not only have the potential for working collaboratively and building from consensus but exemplifying for the lurkers how that's done - even if we hold disparate views in the end. So I invite you to take a more involved role and not be only the question-asker. I also invite you to be less suspicious. If not then I will answer the previous question when I have time but I am not inclined to  further collaborate with those who call an invitation to participate a "non-answer," misrepresent my statements to say things they did not say, and call ten pages of answers insincere. The evidence isn't with you here, Uriah. 

Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

I'll make it easy for you, .....has this already happened? Should be able to say yes or no. It would tell me everything I need to know. 

 

So let's try to recoup. Would you like a more collaborative exchange? If so then please contribute. Start with the word "all" in the voice in question, or some other aspect of your previous inquiry if you choose. If you're not interested and willing to answer questions, but only ask them then let me know. That little tidbit is informative. Or bail. You choose.

*

 

[Uriah]

Of course, verse 7 tells us how it is to be fulfilled. 

[Uriah]

32 minutes ago, Josheb said:

And verses 1:3 and 22:10 tell us when: near to when the Revelation was given and long-sealed prophecies were unsealed. 

Revelation 22:10
"And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

They were events in their future, but not ours. Future-tense to them; past-tense to us. Despite those events having already occurred Christ will come again on the last day. He has come many times in many ways for many purposes and he will come again, at which time all will face judgment and be held to account for every thought, word, and deed. Blessedly, thankfully, to the praise and glory of God almighty, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Judged, but not condemned. 

He is coming. 

But he is not coming as many here have asserted. 

Thanks for that, bro. Ttyl