The size of New Jerusalem

[Retrobyter]

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

I'd like to present my theory regarding the size of New Jerusalem. I previously posted this in a wrong section(Worthy Welcome) so I am creating a new thread here. Since it is against the  forum rules to upload photos from ones website, I will be uploading some diagrams to an image hosting site so that I can show them here.

 

Revelation 21.2,10,16

"And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal."

 

The size of New Jerusalem if we consider it a cube is 1,890,660 meters (or 1,174.8 miles) on each side.

Shalom, Spiros.

I've done some extensive research on this, and I've arrived at quite different measurements. How do you derive a "furlong" (Greek: stadion) is 157.555... meters long or 0.0979 miles long? That's FAR shorter than your measurements should be.

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

Now regarding the shape of New Jerusalem. New Jerusalem is not intended to be a real structure in this world, it encodes certain information that relates to the evolution of civilization and the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I don't agree. The New Jerusalem is certainly intended to be a real structure on the New Earth! There's too much detail to be otherwise!

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

New Jerusalem is a mathematical, geodetical/geographical encoding. It's a sort of equation. You can use the same methodology to compute the dimensions of a hypothetical "New Nazareth", or "New Bethlehem". Actually, you can do the same for any position around the globe as long as you know it's latitude and altitude above sea level. The dimension of New Bethlehem is 11,945 stadions(Greek furlongs) and that of New Nazareth is 12,689 stadions.

I'm sorry to have to say this, but this is simply ridiculous. Nothing is said about a "New Nazareth" or a "New Bethlehem." Furthermore, there's no "encoding" here; the measurements are quite straight forward. A "furlong" is the Greek "stadion" or the Roman "stade" which describes the "steps" the Roman soldiers took for a fraction of a mile. Furthermore, we have those measurements very accurately described in the MILESTONES that are throughout Europe and the Middle East, left by the Romans. The Greek "stadion" or Roman "stade" was 607.14222 feet in length. Multiply this ratio (607.14222 feet/stade) by 12,000 stadia to get 7,285,706.66666 feet and multiply that by (1 mile/5280 feet) to get 1,379.86868 miles for the length, width, and height of the City.

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

This methodology is irrelevant of the actual shape of New Jerusalem. It could be a sphere having a diameter of 12,000 stadions, or a cube with a side of 12,000 stadions, or a non-regular octahedron formed by two back-to back pyramids where the height is half the base length. If we want to visualize an actual structure that symbolizes New Jerusalem we should look at a pyramid. But not the Great Pyramid of Khufu. This because it's height is not equal to the base nor is it half the base.

Sorry, again, but the structure SITS (Revelation 21:16) upon the New Earth. It's not "floating in outer space" nor is it "in orbit around the New Earth."

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

The solution can thus be found at Khufu's father's (Sneferu's) final pyramid. It is called the Red Pyramid and it is located at Dahshur Egypt. According to Josef Dorner's survey the slope of the Red pyramid is 45 degrees. This means that the height is half the base length. We can thus envision the Red pyramid being geometrically mirrored below ground such that a symbolic Jerusalem corresponds to the center of it's base. The width and length of the base are equal and this measure is equal to the total height of the octahedron.

One must be able to live and work in this city. Do you realize how awful it would be to have a floor that angles down at 45 degrees? And, that's assuming a flat earth! Actually, the angles would be much more pronounced!

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

I believe all three shapes (cube, sphere, octahedron) were used to encode information of New Jerusalem.  But one thing that people don't know is that New Jerusalem relates to a place in Greece(Hellas).

Really? In Greece?! I believe that every child of Israel would take personal offense to that assessment.

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

So how is the size of New Jerusalem calculated? The diagram below shows the encoding.

 

https://i.postimg.cc/GmR9gTNQ/New-Jerusalem-Geodesy.jpg

 

Wikipedia informs us that:

 

"Since the Earth is flattened at the poles and bulges at the Equator, geodesy represents the figure of the Earth as an oblate spheroid. The oblate spheroid, or oblate ellipsoid, is an ellipsoid of revolution obtained by rotating an ellipse about its shorter axis."

 

According to Wikipedia:

 

"Geodetic latitude: the angle between the normal and the equatorial plane. The standard notation in English publications is φ. This is the definition assumed when the word latitude is used without qualification. The definition must be accompanied with a specification of the ellipsoid.

 

Geocentric latitude: the angle between the radius (from centre to the point on the surface) and the equatorial plane. (Figure below). There is no standard notation: examples from various texts include θ, ψ, q, φ′, φc, φg. This article uses θ.

 

The definition of geodetic latitude (φ) and geocentric latitude (θ):"

 

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Geocentric_coords_03.svg/290px-Geocentric_coords_03.svg.png

 

We consider a sphere with a radius equal to the distance between Jerusalem and the center of the Earth. Using the altitude and the geographical coordinates of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem we compute the radius to be 6,373,014 meters. We consider a cube placed half inside the Earth and the other half outside, such that the base of the cube is parallel to the horizon at Jerusalem. The center of the cube is situated at Jerusalem. If we extend the base of the cube toward the equator of the Earth then we have three possibilities. It might intersect the the equator inside the Earth, it might intersects the extension of the equator outside the Earth, or it can perfectly reach the intersection of the sphere surface and the plane of the equator as shown in the diagram.

One can do all sorts of things with numbers, but the key to true mathematics is how those numbers, complemented with their units, reflect the real world.

Why would anyone put the cube halfway into the mantle of the earth?! That's just goofy! The cube just doesn't work. The earth's surface is CURVED, and the direction for "down" on one side of the cube is different than the direction for "down" on the other side of the cube! And, this difference is significantly more pronounced the deeper one goes into the mantle of the earth! You don't want a "flat" surface going underground! It won't be "flat!" From the perspective of the surface of the earth, the bottom of this cube would be like a HUGE BOWL, deeper at the center than at the sides!

On 5/13/2021 at 9:32 PM, Spiros said:

If we consider that this third case is what was intended so as to encode the dimensions of the New Jerusalem we can easily trigonometrically compute the size of the cube using the radius of the sphere, and the geocentric latitude(angle) of Jerusalem. From my calculations using on online tool I converted the geodetic latitude of Jerusalem to geodetic latitude and found it to be 31.6065 degrees.  From this information I was able to compute the side of the cube to be equal to 1,890,660 meters. Since this length is defined base on Apostle John's Revelation to be equal to 12,000 stadions, we can compute the size of the stadion to be equal to 157.555 meters. The ancient Itinerary stadion which was in use during John's time is generally given to be between 157.5 and 157.7 meters. 300 late Egyptian royal cubits of size 0.525 meters equal 157.5 meters.

You can't take liberties with the size of the Greek "stadion!" That is the criterion used by the Apostle Yochanan ("John") to give the measurements of the City! If one doesn't keep the size of the "stadion" constant as it was understood in the First Century, then one doesn't know anything about the City!

[Retrobyter]

On 5/13/2021 at 11:36 PM, teddyv said:

If you want a comparison, other than being a sphere rather than a cube, that is about the size of Pluto. I'm assuming that this city is completely supernaturally sustained, because bringing that down to earth might break the planet.

Shalom, teddyv.

No worries. God reforms the New Earth and its New Sky out of the present earth and its sky after the Fire. As He does so, He can create the New Earth to support the New Jerusalem easily. Besides, we're TOLD that the New Jerusalem "LIETH foursquare." Thus, it SITS upon the surface of the planet. Furthermore, the most stable shape is not a sphere nor a square, but is rather a TRIANGLE, even upon the curved surface of the New Earth.

[Retrobyter]

On 5/14/2021 at 10:16 PM, OneLight said:

Yes, pondered them all. 

• I believe Jesus said mansions for a reason.  If they were just rooms, He would of said so.  While Revelation 21 describes the construction of the New Jerusalem, it does not go into details about any mansions.

Shalom, OneLight.

Ah! But, He DID say so! The Greek word for "mansions" in John 14:2 is "monai," the nominative plural of "monee," meaning a "dwelling place." Thus, they are strictly speaking "dwelling places," or more simply "dwellings." The word is used in only one other place in the New Testament: John 14:23, there translated as "abode."

Furthermore, Yochanan ("John") did say in Revelation 21:18 that the city inside the wall was "pure gold, like unto clear glass." That's "glass" as in a "looking glass" or a "mirror," highly reflective.

On 5/14/2021 at 10:16 PM, OneLight said:

• I've often wondered what we will be like in our next life.  How we will travel, speak, work etc.  No answers in scripture that I have found outside of generalities.

Yochanan ("John") did say,

Revelation 21:22-27 (KJV)

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

We'll travel, speak, work, and live as we always have; however, Paul told us in 1 Corinthians 15 that we will glow at various brightnesses and hues.

1 Corinthians 15:39-43 (KJV)

39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies (bodies of-above-the-sky), and bodies terrestrial (bodies of-above-the-ground): but the glory (visible light) of the celestial is one, and the glory (infrared heat) of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 

Old Testament Scripture also bears this out in Daniel 12:3.

Daniel 12:3 (KJV)

3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Even our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah said in Matthew 13:

Matthew 13:43 (KJV)

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

 

On 5/14/2021 at 10:16 PM, OneLight said:

• I've also wondered how large the new earth will need to be in order to fit the 1500 cubic mile city on it.  Will it still rotate as there will be no need for the sun.

Our imagination can go only so far while it can still miss the mark by many miles.  In 1 Corinthians 2:9 we read ...

But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
 

Kefa ("Peter") said,

2 Peter 3:3-13 (KJV)

3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 4 And saying,

"Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation!"

5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water: 

6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: 

7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

So, we have ...

• (1) the heavens and the earth before the Flood
• the Flood
• (2) the heavens and the earth, which are now (after the Flood and reserved for Fire)
• the Fire
• (3) the new heavens and a new earth after the Fire. (This is the "third heaven," btw.)

This current heavens and earth in which we live did not change that much in size and shape from the heavens and earth before the Flood.

So, I would suggest that the New Heavens (Skies) and the New Earth won't change that much in size and shape than our current heavens and earth in which we live. Without significant influx or loss of mass, there should be not be a significant change.

[OneLight]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Shalom, OneLight.

Ah! But, He DID say so! The Greek word for "mansions" in John 14:2 is "monai," the nominative plural of "monee," meaning a "dwelling place." Thus, they are strictly speaking "dwelling places," or more simply "dwellings." The word is used in only one other place in the New Testament: John 14:23, there translated as "abode."

Yes, it can mean abode, habitation or a mansion. It can also mean to dwell or to remain.  Both use G3538 where John 14:2 uses the word monai, John 14:23 uses monEn, slightly different, one being  a place and the other an action.

Now, do i really think I will have a huge house with a swimming pool, many room and bathrooms?  No, I don't, but what I do believe is that it will not matter because just being in His presence all the time will overshadow anything else we see.  When I think of the dwelling place, no matter how small or large, I think of how beautiful it will be, not the size.  This is why I think they use the word mansion instead of a room or a simple dwelling as where ever He places us is always going to be beautiful to us.  Which, in your eye, is more glorious?  A mansion or a room?

[Your closest friendnt]

17 hours ago, OneLight said:

First, you have yet to tell me what you believe.  It is a bit confusing when I don't know what you are comparing anything to.  As for timing, Revelation 20 covers over 1000 years as it begins with Satan being bound for 1000 years and Jesus reigning with the tribulation saints for that 1000 years.  Then it goes on to Satan being released for a time and his rebellion once again before Jesus finally tosses Satan into the lake of Fire and Brimstone, which leads to the Great White Throne Judgment.  Read it again and tell me where my statements are wrong according to scripture.

Second, all you are doing is telling me that you disagree with me without telling me where in scripture you see me making mistakes, all the while never saying what you believe the timetable is in a clear format.

Third, yes, Revelation was written over 2000 years ago.  Are you saying because it is so old it is unreliable?  I really don't know where you are going with that statement.

Fourth, the Great White Throne Judgment is over 1000 years in the future, so no, nobody has risen from the sea, nor has Death and Hades given up those who are in them.

Fifth, am I in for what?  I have been studying scripture for well over 40 years.  The book of Revelation is not new to me. 

Sixth, you will not find any mention of a "new underworld" being created when God creates the new heaven and new earth.  I'm surprised you even included that.

Last, but not least, search the scriptures for the answers you seek, not any "old underworld and the old earth", which I have to admit I have no idea what you are talking about when referencing them.

Reading your answer it seems that you know it all.

This is a discussion forum and you are mean like someone who needs to exercise control over others.

I never said anything against the scriptures. 

I said only how about when the Lord said:

"I MAKE EVERYTHING NEW"

So far this statement has not be acknowledged as the most important statement. 

In the heart of this statement is the message that those changes took place and we are able as the disciples were able to describe them. 

And every believer should be able to understand the changes that took place point to that the Earth is not the same as it use to be, the underworld is not the same.

The prophets before the birth of Jesus Christ have seen those changes taking place in their Spirit and they have described them to a "t", why can you.

Please keep in mind that I never asked about matters that we include them in a resume when we are applying for a job...

The one who was sited on the Throne said " I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW". 

Earlier before the Cross he said through his prophets everything will change it won't be the same as it was at their time. Like when we put on a new garment. The same person in a new garment. We can talk about the changes the prophets of the Lord said will take place and they described them. 

Have they taken place can you describe them?  

 

[Alive]

It seeems to me that this is mostly a communication issue.

[OneLight]

8 minutes ago, Your closest friendnt said:

Reading your answer it seems that you know it all.

This is a discussion forum and you are mean like someone who needs to exercise control over others.

I never said anything against the scriptures. 

I said only how about when the Lord said:

"I MAKE EVERYTHING NEW"

So far this statement has not be acknowledged as the most important statement. 

In the heart of this statement is the message that those changes took place and we are able as the disciples were able to describe them. 

And every believer should be able to understand the changes that took place point to that the Earth is not the same as it use to be, the underworld is not the same.

The prophets before the birth of Jesus Christ have seen those changes taking place in their Spirit and they have described them to a "t", why can you.

Please keep in mind that I never asked about matters that we include them in a resume when we are applying for a job...

The one who was sited on the Throne said " I MAKE ALL THINGS NEW". 

Earlier before the Cross he said through his prophets everything will change it won't be the same as it was at their time. Like when we put on a new garment. The same person in a new garment. We can talk about the changes the prophets of the Lord said will take place and they described them. 

Have they taken place can you describe them?  

 

I simply outlined what Revelation 20 tells us.  I added nothing nor did I take anything away.  Read it for yourself and show me where I was being mean.  I absolutely am not above reproof.

[Your closest friendnt]

2 minutes ago, Alive said:

It seeems to me that this is mostly a communication issue.

Yes it is. 

I am not attempting to draw you into our discussion,  or to take sides, but consider what the prophets had described and Jesus about him self, and what the disciples proclaimed and teach. 

And then at the time of Stephens last moments before his death, the things he said. He said nothing is the same anymore the Messiah the Son of David is enthroned on the Heavenly Throne. God has approved him and has given everything to him.

 He reigns. 

[OneLight]

12 minutes ago, Alive said:

It seeems to me that this is mostly a communication issue.

Sure is a communications issue. 

[Your closest friendnt]

@OneLight

Stephen described the changes that took place in Heaven and Heaven is not the same anymore. 

It is exactly what Jesus proclaimed that day in the Synagogue in his home town in Nazareth when he said; this day the Isaiah 61:1, "the Spirit of the .....)  has been fulfilled in him self. In Luke 4:18 . And the readings of Isaiah ch.65, 66.

Pointing to the time when He will sit on the Heavenly Throne with His Heavenly Father. 

The disciples who were not given the book of revelation the spent the rest of their lives declaring that there is a fundamental change, and the change is so radical that authority was taken away in the underworld and on earth and is given unto him and all authority in Heaven has been given to him.

Do you think they spoke against Revelation twenty.

Or revelation twenty speakers against their teachings. 

It also says besides not add and not to change that when it is read that it cannot be understood because it cannot be understood with man's mindset.

To conceived imaginations according to his knowledge which will always will change with the change of his knowledge.  And we are both literal and spiritual mind set people. You are not JW, why you talk like them.

When what we will find in the New Earth " IT IS RIGHTEOUSNESS" 

Can you find righteousness in the NEW EARTH? 

Jesus Christ said: I HAVE THE KEYS OF DEATH AND HADES.

AND I HAVE THE KEY OF DAVID.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Your closest friendnt