Martyred Tribulation Saints

[Diaste]

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Based on our theology, upbringing, denomination, etc., our hermeneutics vary widely. With my pre-Tribulation Rapture view, my thoughts and timing will be different than the 80% of Christians that hold to different views of the timing. 

I'm personally not sure at what point in time these martyr's were murdered? That is why I brought it up.

Revelation 6:9 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11. And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Could this be a special class of martyr's. These martyrs are already in Heaven awaiting their resurrected glorified bodies, but given white robes to wear. In my pre-Tribulation Rapture view, at Revelation 4:1, this is symbolic of the Rapture of the church, when John is called up, represented by the 24 Elders. With any other view, our thoughts and timing will differ widely.

All I see is the what the 5th seal says. Are they killed in the same manner or just that they are killed for their testimony? I can read it both ways. I know that Rev 20 speaks to a manner of death and those who rule with Christ.

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

 

Some thoughts I had: Could these be martyr's murdered before the official start of the Tribulation; in the time period between the Rapture and the confirming of the covenant with Israel and the many for seven years? Granted, my thoughts will not fit with any other view than a pre-Tribulation Rapture. 

There have been martyrs for a long time. I don't know.

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Isaiah 28:15 (KJV) Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

To be brief: Apparently there is a 'scourge' heading toward Israel, and they sign this covenant with the Antichrist for protection and to survive? Israel knows they are doing the wrong thing and the consequences. 

Which looks like the start of the last week in my mind.

20 hours ago, Dennis1209 said:

Anyway, my thought was the Old Testament Saints will not be resurrected with the bride of Christ. They will be immediately resurrected at the end of the Tribulation [again my hermeneutics]. I was thinking these martyr's could be prior to the Tribulation [waiting on those slain during the Tribulation], or possibly the Old Testament saints who have been waiting so long?

I have thought all the dead from all time are resurrected. But there was a resurrection when Jesus rose and that would have been OT saints. Was it all of them? I don't know.

[Riverwalker]

On 5/26/2021 at 1:44 PM, Dennis1209 said:

How come these Tribulation Saints do not know where they are time wise in the Tribulation, and how much time is left until their blood is avenged? The whole Tribulation is judgment from God, starting with Jesus opening the scroll and sending the seven seal judgments and onward. 

Because they are not God and do not have His knowledge or Wisdom

[Dennis1209]

43 minutes ago, Riverwalker said:

Because they are not God and do not have His knowledge or Wisdom

My point is, these Saints should know God's word in general, and the books of Daniel and Revelation in particular. Revelation is written and divided past (chapter 1), present (chapters 2 & 3 from John's perspective) and future (chapter 4 onward). It is divided in to two, 1,260 day divisions, with marker along the way; seals, trumpet, bowl, A.O.D., etc. 

Anyone during the Tribulation that knows their Bible would know exactly where they were time wise in the Tribulation. These martyred Saints do not have a clue to how much longer before their blood is avenged. The Tribulation IS judgment and vengeance on an unbelieving world, and to cause Israel to once again call on the name of the Lord. Did these saints lose their memory or not know scripture? 

From my point of view, these martyred saints are not the seven year Tribulation Saints, but an earlier date. 

[Riverwalker]

2 minutes ago, Dennis1209 said:

My point is, these Saints should know God's word in general, and the books of Daniel and Revelation in particular. Revelation is written and divided past (chapter 1), present (chapters 2 & 3 from John's perspective) and future (chapter 4 onward). It is divided in to two, 1,260 day divisions, with marker along the way; seals, trumpet, bowl, A.O.D., etc. 

Anyone during the Tribulation that knows their Bible would know exactly where they were time wise in the Tribulation. These martyred Saints do not have a clue to how much longer before their blood is avenged. The Tribulation IS judgment and vengeance on an unbelieving world, and to cause Israel to once again call on the name of the Lord. Did these saints lose their memory or not know scripture? 

From my point of view, these martyred saints are not the seven year Tribulation Saints, but an earlier date. 

I have studied and read God's word for nigh on 30 years, and STILL when the proverbial stuff hits the fan, I melt into a puddle of weakness. 

Perhaps they read the bible and KNEW they were supposed to complain 

 

[Desopixi Seilynam]

Revelation is not chronological per say,
it is telling the one same story repeatedly using different visions each giving different details
of the one same repeated story. We can see so due to Revelation 9:11, 11:7 and 17:8.

Chapter 5 through 7 is one complete telling of the whole story.
This is clear due to Revelation 6:12-17 matching with the day of the Lord as described in Joel and Matthew 24.

Paul never speaks of a 'rapture', he speaks of the resurrections:

"the dead in Christ shall rise first,
then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air"  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Paul's words clearly connect with the account we get in Revelation 19:

"..when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God..
When He shall come to be glorified in His saints" 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

That is the day of the Lord Paul is referring to in the rest of the letter.

Due to Isaiah 26:19-27:1 and Ezekiel 37:9-10 and Joel 2:11 and Jude 1:14-15
together with the Thessalonians passages,
we know that the army spoken of in Revelation 19 is an army of resurrected saints,
the army prophesied about in Ezekiel 37:9-10.
We who are alive and remain are caught up to be part of that army in the sky,
in the clouds, in the air, just exactly as Paul said.
 

-------

"The marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready,
and to her was granted to be clothed in fine linen white and clean"

"The armies in the sky, followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen white and clean"

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice
saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of the sky,
come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God"

"And the beast and false prophet [Leviathan and the Dragon Isaiah 26:19-27:1]
these both were captured and thrown alive into a lake of fire,
and the rest were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse
which sword proceeded from His mouth,  [Joel 2:11, Isaiah 30:30-31, Micah 5:2-5]
and all the birds were filled with their flesh"

Revelation 19:7-21

"For wheresoever the bodies are there will the birds be gathered together" 

Matthew 24:28, Luke 17:37

--------

Isaiah 26:19
Ezekiel 37:1-15
1 Corinthians 15:23
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Revelation 20:4-5
Are all speaking about the same resurrections.
There are only two resurrections, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust Acts 24:15.

Isaiah and Ezekiel prophesied about the resurrection of the just.
Paul gives details about resurrected bodies and the order of resurrections,
and through Paul we know that alive people will be raised to glory as well.

Revelation tells about the events surrounding the resurrections.
All passages give the same order and are clearly speaking of the same events.
 

Isaiah 26:19 == Resurrections
Isaiah 27:1-2 == Two beasts slain.

Revelation 19:7-17 == Marriage of the Lamb, resurrections.
Revelation 19:19-21 == Two beasts slain.
 

Ezekiel 37:1-14 == Resurrections
Ezekiel 37:15 -24 == 1000 year reign
Ezekiel 38 and 39 == Gog and Magog

1 Corinthians 15:23 == Resurrections
1 Corinthians 15:24-25 == Reign

Revelation 20:4-5 == Resurrections
Revelation 20:5-7 == 1000 year reign
Revelation 20:7-10 == Gog and Magog.

 

-------

I understand therefore the doctrine of the 'rapture' to be part of the coming deceptions.
The best way I think it should be written is in a prophetical way, such that when it is happening,
you would believe. 

 

A seeming 'rapture' is staged.
Those left feel like they have been 'left behind' and are therefore more susceptible to the coming deceptions.

And then a charismatic Islamic tyrant comes to power who will be labeled by mainstream Christianity as the anti-Christ.

A great war begins against the Islamic tyrant.
Islamic rule and law is installed in many places in the world.
During the war, beast number one, gets seemingly killed.
Due to people thinking the Islamic tyrant is the anti-Christ,
they will be deceived by beast number one, who will seem to be a martyr.
And when he gets healed in a spectacular world changing way, the unsaved world, those deceived, will marvel and wonder at it. Then he will start to speak fantastical things about what is in heaven, and say that 'Jesus' will arrive soon.
'Jesus' eventually arrives and backs up and glorifies beast number one. 
Together they put an end to the war and seem to be saviors.

 

[Mike Mclees]

On 6/1/2021 at 7:19 AM, Dennis1209 said:

My point is, these Saints should know God's word in general, and the books of Daniel and Revelation in particular. Revelation is written and divided past (chapter 1), present (chapters 2 & 3 from John's perspective) and future (chapter 4 onward). It is divided in to two, 1,260 day divisions, with marker along the way; seals, trumpet, bowl, A.O.D., etc. 

Anyone during the Tribulation that knows their Bible would know exactly where they were time wise in the Tribulation. These martyred Saints do not have a clue to how much longer before their blood is avenged. The Tribulation IS judgment and vengeance on an unbelieving world, and to cause Israel to once again call on the name of the Lord. Did these saints lose their memory or not know scripture? 

From my point of view, these martyred saints are not the seven year Tribulation Saints, but an earlier date. 

Tribulation is not judgment but persecution, which Jesus said would happen to Christians from the day of pentecost till today and even until the abomination of Desolation when  the antichrist claims to be god which is mid term of the seven year peace spoken of by Daniel. It is at this point comes the Great Tribulation which the final 3&1/2 years. Tribulation is persecution not Gods judgment. The judgement begins after the Bride is already  taken to heaven and are praised by God for Overcoming the antichrist. Rev 15 and 16 Then Gods bowls of wrath are poured out on the unbelieving world. 

Just saying.  

Edited June 3, 2021 by Mike Mclees

[Starise]

On 6/1/2021 at 10:46 AM, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Revelation is not chronological per say,
it is telling the one same story repeatedly using different visions each giving different details
of the one same repeated story. We can see so due to Revelation 9:11, 11:7 and 17:8.

Chapter 5 through 7 is one complete telling of the whole story.
This is clear due to Revelation 6:12-17 matching with the day of the Lord as described in Joel and Matthew 24.

Paul never speaks of a 'rapture', he speaks of the resurrections:

"the dead in Christ shall rise first,
then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds
to meet the Lord in the air"  1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Paul's words clearly connect with the account we get in Revelation 19:

"..when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God..
When He shall come to be glorified in His saints" 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

That is the day of the Lord Paul is referring to in the rest of the letter.

Due to Isaiah 26:19-27:1 and Ezekiel 37:9-10 and Joel 2:11 and Jude 1:14-15
together with the Thessalonians passages,
we know that the army spoken of in Revelation 19 is an army of resurrected saints,
the army prophesied about in Ezekiel 37:9-10.
We who are alive and remain are caught up to be part of that army in the sky,
in the clouds, in the air, just exactly as Paul said.
 

-------

"The marriage of the Lamb has come and His bride has made herself ready,
and to her was granted to be clothed in fine linen white and clean"

"The armies in the sky, followed Him on white horses, clothed in fine linen white and clean"

"And I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried with a loud voice
saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of the sky,
come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God"

"And the beast and false prophet [Leviathan and the Dragon Isaiah 26:19-27:1]
these both were captured and thrown alive into a lake of fire,
and the rest were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse
which sword proceeded from His mouth,  [Joel 2:11, Isaiah 30:30-31, Micah 5:2-5]
and all the birds were filled with their flesh"

Revelation 19:7-21

"For wheresoever the bodies are there will the birds be gathered together" 

Matthew 24:28, Luke 17:37

--------

Isaiah 26:19
Ezekiel 37:1-15
1 Corinthians 15:23
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
Revelation 20:4-5
Are all speaking about the same resurrections.
There are only two resurrections, the resurrection of the just and the resurrection of the unjust Acts 24:15.

Isaiah and Ezekiel prophesied about the resurrection of the just.
Paul gives details about resurrected bodies and the order of resurrections,
and through Paul we know that alive people will be raised to glory as well.

Revelation tells about the events surrounding the resurrections.
All passages give the same order and are clearly speaking of the same events.
 

Isaiah 26:19 == Resurrections
Isaiah 27:1-2 == Two beasts slain.

Revelation 19:7-17 == Marriage of the Lamb, resurrections.
Revelation 19:19-21 == Two beasts slain.
 

Ezekiel 37:1-14 == Resurrections
Ezekiel 37:15 -24 == 1000 year reign
Ezekiel 38 and 39 == Gog and Magog

1 Corinthians 15:23 == Resurrections
1 Corinthians 15:24-25 == Reign

Revelation 20:4-5 == Resurrections
Revelation 20:5-7 == 1000 year reign
Revelation 20:7-10 == Gog and Magog.

 

-------

I understand therefore the doctrine of the 'rapture' to be part of the coming deceptions.
The best way I think it should be written is in a prophetical way, such that when it is happening,
you would believe. 

 

A seeming 'rapture' is staged.
Those left feel like they have been 'left behind' and are therefore more susceptible to the coming deceptions.

And then a charismatic Islamic tyrant comes to power who will be labeled by mainstream Christianity as the anti-Christ.

A great war begins against the Islamic tyrant.
Islamic rule and law is installed in many places in the world.
During the war, beast number one, gets seemingly killed.
Due to people thinking the Islamic tyrant is the anti-Christ,
they will be deceived by beast number one, who will seem to be a martyr.
And when he gets healed in a spectacular world changing way, the unsaved world, those deceived, will marvel and wonder at it. Then he will start to speak fantastical things about what is in heaven, and say that 'Jesus' will arrive soon.
'Jesus' eventually arrives and backs up and glorifies beast number one. 
Together they put an end to the war and seem to be saviors.

 

Looks like you've done lots of study into this. I have repeatedly heard the staged rapture theory yet it seems to be only a belief some have. I can't deny the possibility of a staged rapture. Neither can I find enough proof to confirm this as a reality or even enough proof to stand on it as a viable idea.. Same goes for a confirmed Islamic anti-christ. I'm wondering where that idea comes from?

We all probably have our ideas on how we think things will play out. You are not the first I have heard put forth the false rapture.

I have looked at the technology some nations supposedly have to project holograms in the sky  using lasers. I see that it could be used as a tool to fool a bunch of people. I'm not sure though that it will or would be employed in such a way strictly for this purpose. To come up with some of these ideas I think we have to connect a lot of dots from a long distance. One of those great "what ifs".

[Desopixi Seilynam]

21 hours ago, Starise said:

I have repeatedly heard the staged rapture theory yet it seems to be only a belief some have. I can't deny the possibility of a staged rapture. Neither can I find enough proof to confirm this as a reality or even enough proof to stand on it as a viable idea.. Same goes for a confirmed Islamic anti-christ. I'm wondering where that idea comes from?

One thing is clear dear one, Paul never spoke of a rapture, Paul speaks of resurrections.

The idea that Christians will disappear one day is not in the scriptures.

Therefore the whole idea of a 'rapture' is deceptive.
There must be some reason for it, most likely therefore a staged 'rapture'.
 

Much of mainstream Christian preaching on the end times leads people to believe that it will mainly be a conflict between
'Jews' and 'Arabs' and that the Messiah will come and finish off Hamas, and finish expel the so-called strangers in Israel.
Much of mainstream Christian preaching has been fully infiltrated by the synagogue of Satan, those pretending to be Jews.
It is clear that they want Christians to believe they are Jews, and that Jesus will come and fight for them against the 'Arabs'.
 

What the real Messiah will do is recorded in scripture:
"I will be a swift witness against.. false swearers.. and them that turn aside the stranger from his right"
Malachi 3:5
 

Which should make clear who is who and what is what.

[Starise]

6 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

One thing is clear dear one, Paul never spoke of a rapture, Paul speaks of resurrections.

The idea that Christians will disappear one day is not in the scriptures.

Therefore the whole idea of a 'rapture' is deceptive.
There must be some reason for it, most likely therefore a staged 'rapture'.

Brother we are in full agreement here on the resurrection with respect to the time tables involved. Any concerted study of the events as preached in many churches that teach a rapture will yield inconsistencies i.e. Going up, coming back later and so forth. I believe the Bible teaches one EVENT at the end concerning both the dead and the alive at the time. The dead will be raised first. Those still alive in physical bodies are raised next. This could all happen in very fast succession.I admittedly did not always see things this way. Only after further study did I make these conclusions. I was "indoctrinated" in one of those dispensational rapture churches.

If a pastor says we will all be raised, technically and by definition this is a rapture. This statement would not be incorrect. There's a play on words going on here which only becomes inaccurate if we begin to see what some of them teach about WHEN and HOW this is all happening. For me, it has more to do with the arrangement of the events. To say there is no rapture would technically be inaccurate if we go by the definition that it means Christians will be taken up.

Just a suggestion. It might be easier to reason with those who were indoctrinated by telling them that there's a more accurate view of their "rapture". To tell them a rapture does not exist incites all the wrong things in these people.

But yeah, I don't think we are going to see an empty set of clothes where a person once was. When it happens it will not be secret, as if someone secretly snuck everyone off lol.

I think we are in for a lot of deception in the near future. I can't say if there will be a staged rapture. If so it would require the ability to remove people in large numbers? 

28 minutes ago, Desopixi Seilynam said:

Much of mainstream Christian preaching on the end times leads people to believe that it will mainly be a conflict between
'Jews' and 'Arabs' and that the Messiah will come and finish off Hamas, and finish expel the so-called strangers in Israel.
Much of mainstream Christian preaching has been fully infiltrated by the synagogue of Satan, those pretending to be Jews.
It is clear that they want Christians to believe they are Jews, and that Jesus will come and fight for them against the 'Arabs'.

It is true Israel is not presently settled by all Jews and has a large percentage of other people from the info I gather.

I lean more in the direction of a future world religious co operative that includes corrupt Arabs and the RCC among many others. All of the corrupt apostate religions would reign under one large universal umbrella. This is conjecture on my part. I think it holds some validity. I have not pointed to Bible for any of this. I have studied it though and come to this conclusion which I am willing to change if my study reveals a more rational explanation.

[Diaste]

On 6/1/2021 at 8:19 AM, Dennis1209 said:

My point is, these Saints should know God's word in general, and the books of Daniel and Revelation in particular. Revelation is written and divided past (chapter 1), present (chapters 2 & 3 from John's perspective) and future (chapter 4 onward). It is divided in to two, 1,260 day divisions, with marker along the way; seals, trumpet, bowl, A.O.D., etc. 

Anyone during the Tribulation that knows their Bible would know exactly where they were time wise in the Tribulation. These martyred Saints do not have a clue to how much longer before their blood is avenged. The Tribulation IS judgment and vengeance on an unbelieving world, and to cause Israel to once again call on the name of the Lord. Did these saints lose their memory or not know scripture? 

From my point of view, these martyred saints are not the seven year Tribulation Saints, but an earlier date. 

Of that day and hour knows no man, not the Son, but the Father only.

There is an unknown day and this is to what the 5th seal martyrs refer. That's why they ask, "How long....?" No one but our Father knows. So no matter where we are in the timeline there is an unknown. Pre, post, mid all have that one unknown day and hour that must be dealt with.