Jesus comes immediately AFTER the tribulation, there is no Left Behind Secret Rapture=Stop causing fear.

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, OneLight said:

That is where that theory looses a lot of credibility.   It's not who Jesus was speaking to, but who He was speaking about.  Who is the "fig tree" that puts forth its leaves?  Many agree that this is Israel, as when Israel became a nation again in 1948.

Matthew 24:32-35

Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!  Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.  Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

What are "these things" they will see?  Everything in the beginning of the chapter Jesus spoke of.

Matthew 24:3-31

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.  For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.  Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.  And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.  Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.  And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!  And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.  For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.  See, I have told you beforehand.

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.   For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.  For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I had asked this in previous threads and received no answers.  I'll ask again.  Was all the above fulfilled by the time AD 70 came around?

Jumping up and down as high as I can, with my arm raised over my head, shouting above everyone else; "ask me, ask me." Absolutely not 

[The Light]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.
See to it that no one misleads you.

 

Do you not see ALL these things. Truly I say to you, NOT ONE STONE HERE WILL BE LEFT UPON ANOTHER, which will not be torn down.

Houston, we have a PROBLEM.

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

You will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not frightened...
Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations because of my name.
Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...
But pray that your flight will not be in the winter...
Behold, I have told you in advance.
When its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that he is near.
Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 
Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.
For this reason you also must be ready; for the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

 

Do you not understand that the words of Jesus about end times were also told by John in the book of Revelation(which was written AFTER 70 AD). After Jesus comes for the gathering, the wrath of God occurs. Have you seen the wrath of God occur? It should take you about ten minutes to realize the things that you are saying are incorrect.

Rev 6

1 And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.

2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

3 And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.

4 And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.

5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.

8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

[The Light]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by The Light
Double post.

[The Light]

10 hours ago, Josheb said:

 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2021 by The Light
triple post

[Dennis1209]

12 hours ago, OneLight said:

That is where that theory looses a lot of credibility.   It's not who Jesus was speaking to, but who He was speaking about.  Who is the "fig tree" that puts forth its leaves?  Many agree that this is Israel, as when Israel became a nation again in 1948.

Matthew 24:32-35

Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!  Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all these things take place.  Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

What are "these things" they will see?  Everything in the beginning of the chapter Jesus spoke of.

Matthew 24:3-31

Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

And Jesus answered and said to them: “Take heed that no one deceives you.  For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will deceive many.  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.  All these are the beginning of sorrows.

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.  Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.  And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.  And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.  Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house.  And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes.  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!  And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath.  For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.  And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

“Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it.  For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.  See, I have told you beforehand.

“Therefore if they say to you, ‘Look, He is in the desert!’ do not go out; or ‘Look, He is in the inner rooms!’ do not believe it.   For as the lightning comes from the east and flashes to the west, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.  For wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.  And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

I had asked this in previous threads and received no answers.  I'll ask again.  Was all the above fulfilled by the time AD 70 came around?

I cannot help but to comment on Matthew 24. The law of first mention: The first thing in a list mentioned being the most important, or particular attention to be paid to [deceive; deception]. Jesus uses it four times for emphasis, "do not be deceived." If it were possible, even the very elect would be deceived.

There had to be an undivided nation of Israel back in the land, still in unbelief before the Tribulation. After May 14, 1948, we started to witness a convergence of everything prophetic come about. 

Lying signs and wonders: Are we presently seeing a prelude to this with official government disclosure that UFOs are real, with all the media coverage. I have written my thoughts on this previously, so I'll skip the details. However; more people on this planet believe in UFOs than in God. That seems to be telling. 

Question: Are you familiar with the second Temple period Jewish wedding procedure and traditions? How that procedure exactly mirrors what we are told about the events leading up to Jesus coming for His bride, to include the seven day wedding and wedding feast after he snatches his bride? In this example of a Jewish wedding, the Jewish son does not know when his father will tell him that; everything is ready for him to unexpectant, go fetch his new bride. I think it is much too detailed to be a coincidence. 

Therefore; if the Son does not know the day nor the hour [as the traditional Jewish wedding example], that is a loss of omniscience. I do not understand how it works, but I am trying to learn and understand as much as possible.

Luke 2:40 (KJV) And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Matthew 11:27 (KJV) All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

[Montana Marv]

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

No, we don't. First, Jesus is using hyperbole; it's a common literary device used throughout scripture. Second, what Jesus actually said was in reference to all that they could see. The wailing wall cannot be seen from the entrance to the temple. If you, The Light, are going to be literal then actually be literal. 

And then realize all those teachers who use the wailing wall's existence as refutation have done so by ignoring the specifics of the text. 

That is a problem. 

Don't follow folks who make up things that have no bearing on what is actually stated in the text! Be as critical of their words as you are of mine. The irrefutable fact is the temple was destroyed. Just as irrefutable is the fact there isn't a single statement anywhere in the entirety of the Bible stating a third temple will be built. Every prophecy made to say such a things occurs either while an existing temple stood, before Herod's temple was built, or can be understood as the temple God built in Christ (1 Cor. 3:16). 

Houston doesn't have a problem.

Ezk 41 to end of book will answer the temple question. There is a third Temple so Christ can enter it following the Second Coming. We don't believe in the preterist narrative. This is the place for the soles of my feet so I can live among the  Israelite forever. Never happened in  70 AD. To say so is blindness. Very little really happened in and around 70AD.

In Christ 

Montana Marv 

[Justin Adams]

37 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

Very little really happened in and around 70AD.

Maybe do a little study and read first person accounts. The Jews would not say "little happened". Not at all. In fact discretion should be adopted here.

Edited June 15, 2021 by Justin Adams

[Justin Adams]

33 minutes ago, Montana Marv said:

There is a third Temple so Christ can enter it

Already here. Read what the apostles said: "You are the temple of God". Talking about individual and corporate believers. Check out the scriptures sometimes maybe...

[OneLight]

Though I despise dodge ball posts, and despite your belittling attitude in your questions to me, I'll answer the questions from your post in the following order.

1 hour ago, Josheb said:

1) You're not going to believe a word of so why waste my time?

2) Will you pledge to give what I post sincere consideration?

3) More importantly, why haven't you already studied this?

4) Why is your homework being farmed out to others?

1) The proof asked for was historical data you were relying on when you came to your theory.  I'm not the one claiming it is history, you are.  I also am not asking for your personal theory, but facts.

2) I take all posts I reply to seriously. 

3) I have, for many many years.  I have been giving this serious consideration since the early 80's.  Nothing you posted to date is new to me.  I've heard this argument many times.

4) I have done my homework, which is why, due to the lack of evidence that it has happened in the past, I don't believe in your theology.

Now, since you claim this has already happened and that it is history, show me the evidence I was not able to find of the following events: (No worries, I'll wait until you return from work)

Immediately after the tribulation of those days (when did)

• the sun became darkened
• the moon did not give its light
• the stars fell from heaven
• the powers of the heavens shaken
• The sign of the Son of Man appeared in heaven
• all the tribes of the earth mourned
• see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory
• He sent His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and gathered together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other

When did all the above happen during the days of the disciples?  In order for the message to of been meant for only them, then all had to be fulfilled.

There are more events that I could not find historical evidence of happening, but just the points above from only a few verses would be enough to cause me to question my theory of most of this chapter has yet to be fulfilled.  Remember, prophecy cannot be claimed to of been fulfilled until all conditions have been met.  I see Matthew 24 as still being fulfilled, not a closed series of events or conditions.

You see, I do agree that certain parts have been fulfilled, but not all, which is why what is being said still pertains to us today, as Jesus speaking also to this generation.  Especially the parable of the Fig Tree.  Israel was scattered in AD 70.  I'm sure you would agree to this easily enough.  It was no longer a nation and would not be able to "put forth its leaves" until it became a nation again, which it did in 1948. 

I'm not sure why you would say that nobody that was alive in 1948 are still alive today.  That in itself is a false statement.  You stated "The generation that saw the new Israel established in 1948 has passed away; that's why they are moving the date to the capture of Jerusalem in 1967. "  I personally know people who are old enough to remember this happening.  That generation lives on until all who lived in 1948 have died.  To say otherwise is only twisting the meaning of the statement Jesus made to fit their theology.

As for your closing statement, I'm not here to learn your ways, but to discuss His ways. 

 

[Montana Marv]

41 minutes ago, Justin Adams said:

Already here. Read what the apostles said: "You are the temple of God". Talking about individual and corporate believers. Check out the scriptures sometimes maybe...

So the soles of His feet walk inside of you 

In Christ 

Montana Marv