Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ghtan]

 

Perhaps, but if you browse the internet, you can find many other prophets. I have never heard a true prophet of God that prophesied of a post trib rapture. I have certainly heard or read from many different prophets. There may be a prophet that has prophesied of a post trib rapture - but I have never heard or read.

 

Of course as a good student of the bible, when I hear a prophecy I must compare it with the written word of God. I believe the rapture as written by Paul is the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord (1 Thes. 5) and John shows us the start of the Day of the Lord comes in Rev. 6 at the 6th seal, LONG before the 7th vial ends the week.

 

It is in black and white written down, and hard to deny. And it certainly is in agreement with what else Paul wrote, that God has made no appointment with us for His wrath.  No appointment means we won't be there.

 

 

Doesn't that make you either pre-wrath or mid-trib given that, if I am not mistaken, pre-trib normally assume the rapture is pre-Rev ch 6?

[Diaste]

 

 

 

I find myself swaying between pre and post after reading this thread. It appears to be a very complex puzzle to solve.

 

 

WillowWood, there is one aspect  you may have not thought of. there is much prophecy in the world today. Some of couse is false prophecy. But there are real prophets of God that are prohesying. I read after serveral that I am sure hear from heaven.

 

First, what does God say about this?

 

1 Corinthians 14:29

Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

 

So read and judge. I have never read any prophet prophesying of a rapture at the end.

 

(Words Received from Our LORD by Susan, May 29, 2013)

I am ready to give you Words.  The hour is approaching for MY Return.  I am near, even at the door. Children, you act as if this event will never happen.  You act as if MY Coming is a spoof or a joke.  You act as if your GOD does not exist and MY Words are not good.  You treat ME as if I am a liar and the signs that I put out are all being ignored.

The signs are for your benefit.  I gave signs so that you can know to be ready.  This is all for your benefit. I know when I am coming.  I know the day of MY arrival.  I know the day I will be approaching for the church.  You, on the other hand, need to watch for the signs.  This is MY Gift, MY Warning for all those who watch, to pay attention.  This is for those who want to be ready at MY Coming, for those who desire to be ready when I come for the church.

I could have come without warning but this is not MY Way.  I want the people to know I care enough to give them warning, that I love them enough to give them time to prepare.  Without this warning most of you would be lost.  As it is, with the warning, most are still not paying attention.  The only thing left now is for MY Coming.  I can come at any moment but most of you are not watching and you will be left behind or lost in the coming sudden destruction.

If you are caught up in “sudden destruction” apart from ME and MY Rapture you will go to hell.  If you doubt this, read MY Word.  MY Word is clear.  If you spend time in MY Word you will see that the signs that I put forth are now happening in the world.  I have not misled anyone.  It has all been laid out before you.

Make your preparations now to be ready for MY Coming.  Don’t be deceived by someone who tells you something different.  Take time and read MY Word for yourself.  Dig deep into MY Word, get to know ME for yourself.  Come to ME for a personal relationship.  Don’t just take the word of others that I am not coming soon.  Learn the Truth for yourself.  You will be held accountable when you face ME someday, you alone.  Get to know your GOD.  Don’t waste another moment.

 

FATHER GOD, (YAHUSHUA’s FATHER)

 

 

If we are to judge this, maybe the very first thought: NO ONE KNOWS the day nor the hour, not even Jesus. But notice who signed this letter:it is from the Father. He knows. Since Jesus is a very part of Him, when Jesus comes He is coming in Jesus.This is a very pretrib prophecy.

 

 

 

(Words Received from Our LORD by Susan, May 31, 2013)

 

Yes, I can give you Words:

 

It is I, your LORD.  I am coming.  I spoke it and I will fulfill it!  It is MY Word—MY Word never fails.

 

The hour is approaching for this fulfillment.  You will continue to see events leading up to this event: things spoken of so long ago.  These events will intensify as MY Coming is close.

 

Don’t let MY Coming take you by surprise.  Let these signs speak to your spirit: wake you up.  I do not want you to be paralyzed with fear, but I do want you to have a healthy fear of GOD.  Don’t fall asleep at the wheel when I come for MY own.  Many will be caught unawares—but not caught up to safety: horror and terror will be their reward for not paying attention and for not watching and seeking ME for MY Salvation and Guidance.

 

This hour approaches and the majority cannot focus on their GOD.  The world is just too enticing.  Soon the enticement of the world will go flat: the flavor will be a bitter pill to swallow.

 

Seek your GOD.  Surrender your all to ME.  I am worth knowing.  I bled and died for you.  I gave you life and your being.  Come to know ME today.  It is almost time for these events to take place.  Hide under MY Wing.  Come under MY Blood Covering.  There is no other place to retreat…

 

I am the SHELTER in a STORM—I AM

 

 

Again a very PREtrib prophecy. No word of seeing the man of sin first.

 

"Run from all evil. Run into MY Arms. The world that I created for you is dying and decaying little by little. It is a stench to MY FATHER. HE can hardly tolerate it anymore. HE is ready to take MY bride out and throw a big party for ME in Heaven. You are all invited. Just make sure you get there. You must “RSVP” by submitting your life and everything you love and enjoy and look forward to, to ME. Submit your ALL to ME."

 

Again very pretrib.

 

RAPTURE AND MARRIAGE SUPPER OF THE LAMB

Let US begin. These Words are for whoever will receive them: Today I am going to talk about the coming rapture, the removal of the bride, MY church.

This moment arrives quickly. Many children are not ready. They fight ME and cling to the world. They want to walk in the ways of the world. They rush to and fro and pay no heed to the warnings I am giving… Soon the warnings will be done and I must come and the bride will be removed. She will be taken out of the picture.

.

Her identity is unknown to the world. She is well hidden. I have her cloistered away in safe keeping. MY Light shines through her—the last remaining light on earth. Time is short and soon this light will go out. MY sent ones will leave to their heavenly home safe from the tyranny on earth.

This rapture event will be a large event, the removal of MY ready children. No such event will ever be like it in human history. There will never be anything like it before or after. It is the greatest “Exodus” of all time.

MY children will depart in a moment and receive new glorified bodies. These bodies will be resilient and eternal. They will follow after the pattern of the glorified body I possess. I am the FIRST FRUIT of many others. These children will experience a life they have never known before, a glorious life, life everlasting.

 

There will be many wonderful things ahead for MY raptured children. Let ME give you a peek: When MY children arrive, they will be greeted by their loved ones: family and friends already in the heavenlies. I will be looking on. This is a moment of great glory. What a gift to be reunited with family long missed… Then MY children will be ushered to the great Marriage Supper of the LAMB. I will preside over this event.

 

The table will be lavishly prepared: every accoutrement will be provided. The details of this event will be astounding. MY children will be seated in front of a place setting with their name lettered in pure gold. Each place setting will have golden utensils embedded with jewels. There will be solid gold plates also studded with jewels. The tablecloth will be of pure silk spun with golden threads.  Light will shine through the weave. The cups will be gold with jewels around the rim.

Each place setting will have a gift especially for each child. The gift will be a precious reminder of MY Relationship with this child. It will be unique for each child. Each gift will have special meaning to each child of OUR long lasting relationship. There will be many surprises at this Event – MY Marriage Supper.

 

Each child will have an angel who waits on him. The food is prepared in MY Heavenly Kitchens. Nothing will be amiss. All food items will be of heavenly proportions, food from earth that is recognized and food from heaven never seen before. Beauty unspeakable will be this table setting.  MY Table will be full of light: candles of light, beautiful Menorahs. MY children will wear robes of light. They will exude light as there will be no shadows....MY children will also be shown their mansions: O’ daughter the beauty, the splendor. Eye has not seen or ear has not heard what waits MY glorious bride who loves ME. Daughter, these mansions will be more delightful than anything earth has to offer. Nothing can compare to the magnificence of what MY bride has in store for her. These homes will suit the taste and interests of each child. No two mansions are alike. Each one is different from the other.

 

Again, very pretrib.

 

From a different message:

 

This world will soon not look the same as MY opponent and evil men take over and the light of MY bride is removed from your presence. She is bright with MY HOLY SPIRIT WHO restrains the evil from reigning in full force. Soon this restraint will be removed and the antichrist will rise up to destroy those who are left behind who turn back to ME for their salvation. HE will not allow anyone who claims ME as their SAVIOR and GOD to run free or to live in peace. All will know the penalty of being loyal to ME.  This tyranny is forming now. Don’t be blinded by your lack of knowledge and resistance to Truth – MY Truth.

 

Come to your senses. READ MY WORD. Awaken to the understanding of the hour you live in and make things right with your GOD. SURRENDER to ME in a COMPLETE and FULL SURRENDER. REPENT to MY Holiness. FORGIVE those around you leaving no stone unturned. Come to ME and RECEIVE A FULL OIL LAMP.

 

 

Part of one prophecy:

 

I do not take lightly to those who reject ME. The outcome will be very bad for those who choose against ME for the wooden idols and love of mammon. These will be left behind to face the worst. Very soon this will play out. Those who will be left behind will become sober quickly after they learn the error of their ways and the tyranny they are about to face. They will have missed their escape and salvation from tribulation and their losses will be great....  The world will soon never be the same again. It is about to face horror and destruction: the like has never been seen before. It will only be MY Grace and Mercy that will finally put an end to it all and only by MY Power will the evil be stopped. Men cannot stop what is coming and they will not be able to keep it at bay. Fear and destruction and terror will reign supreme over the earth during the greatest tribulation man has ever seen.

Come out with ME when I call up MY few, MY bride, MY select. Only a few are going—very few. These ones know ME in the secret place where very few are willing to tread. Only a few want to make time to really know their GOD. This is what I require: intimacy. MY Word is very clear about this matter. Come now and get to know ME in the intimate place. There is no replacement for this closeness.  The world cannot compare to eternity spent with GOD.

Children, your time is running out. MY enemy is getting closer and closer to his goal of tyranny over the people.

 

You see, still very very PRETRIB.

 

From another letter:  Today children, I want to address you with new Words, Words that will make you sit up and listen: I am coming to retrieve only those who are in MY Will: MY Perfect Will.  All others will be left back to face the worst atrocities and events.

 

This world will soon fall into evil hands and be consumed by evil after MY true bride, the church is removed and taken to her new home prepared for her safekeeping and delight.  You are in danger of expiring apart from GOD for all eternity.

Awaken and see what is about to happen to you.  I cannot take you with ME if you remain stiff-necked, stubborn, and rebellious to MY Perfect Ways.  Only ONE NARROW ROAD leads to Truth, MY Salvation, MY Perfect Will.  Come ask ME for directions down the NARROW ROAD and I will lead you—only I can do this.

I AM THE NARROW ROAD!

 

This is just a sample from http://end-times-prophecy.com/blog/?p=3459

 

It is 100% PRETRIB, simply because GOD is PRETRIB.

 

Lamad

 

Too subjective to be truth. Plus the first one looks like outright contrivance to me. And none can be confirmed in the presence of other prophets as the scripture says. 

 

Perhaps, but if you browse the internet, you can find many other prophets. I have never heard a true prophet of God that prophesied of a post trib rapture. I have certainly heard or read from many different prophets. There may be a prophet that has prophesied of a post trib rapture - but I have never heard or read.

 

Of course as a good student of the bible, when I hear a prophecy I must compare it with the written word of God. I believe the rapture as written by Paul is the trigger for the start of the Day of the Lord (1 Thes. 5) and John shows us the start of the Day of the Lord comes in Rev. 6 at the 6th seal, LONG before the 7th vial ends the week.

 

It is in black and white written down, and hard to deny. And it certainly is in agreement with what else Paul wrote, that God has made no appointment with us for His wrath.  No appointment means we won't be there.

 

Yes, it's true the scripture says we are not appointed to wrath, a fact that makes me very happy as the wrath of God is a terrible and fearful thing. But the scripture also says we will suffer persecution at the hand of men for the testimony we hold of Jesus Christ. That's what has always happened. The apostles were persecuted yet never suffered the wrath of God. Two major examples in the scriptures show that Noah and Lot were taken to safety before the wrath of God fell on the evil ones, and they were taken out on the SAME DAY the wrath of God began. Since we know the wrath of God comes after the tribulation of those days it's clear we will go through the period known as 'great tribulation, such as was not, nor ever shall be."

Now you mentioned the 6th seal. This seal opens near the end of the 70th week. The 6th seal has the same signs as the passage in Matthew 24, i.e.,

Matt 24:29

 “Immediately after the distress of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken."

Rev 6:12-14

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

 

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

 

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

The above describes the Day of the Lord and it is at this point when the believers are gathered. Matt 24:30 describes this event. Nowhere before the events of Matt 24:29-30 is the gathering of the believers described. Therefore the 'rapture' occurs after the "distress of those days" and in conjunction with the sign of the coming of the Son of Man when all the people of the earth mourn and the angels are sent by Jesus to gather the elect.

So in contemporary vernacular, post-trib or pre-wrath is the timing for the 'rapture'.

 

Edited May 10, 2015 by Diaste

[InSeasonOut]

wow this whole thread is a mess, i jumped in at the wrong time. Plus when anyone is anything but "pre-trib", they are messed up doctrinally in other places... I'm out.

[Omegaman 3.0]

wow this whole thread is a mess, i jumped in at the wrong time. Plus when anyone is anything but "pre-trib", they are messed up doctrinally in other places... I'm out.

 

Wow, what a statement that is? So, according to this poster, everyone in the following list is messed up doctrinally:

 

Jay Adams

Randy Alcorn

Richard Ames

Roy W. Anderberg

Matthew Arnold

J. Sidlow Baxter

Allistair Begg

Corrie ten Boom

F.F. Bruce

B.H. Carroll

Jonas Clark

William Cowper

John Gill

Robert Gundry

Hank Hanegraaf

William Hendriksen

Carl F.H. Henry

Matthew Henry

Herschell Hobbs

Adoniram Judson

Arthur J. Katterjohn

D. James Kennedy

Greg Koukl

George Eldon Ladd

Hugh Latimer

C.S. Lewis

J.B. Lightfoot

Harold Lindsell

C.S. Lovett

Walter Martin

Jack McAlister

James (Jim) McKeever

Albert Mohler

John Warwick Montgomery

Doug Moo

Dale Moody

Russell Moore

G. Campbell Morgan

H.C.G. Moule

Andrew Murray

Watchman Nee

Sir Isaac Newton

Harold J. Ockenga

J. Edwin Orr

Ian Paisley

Wilfred Pink

John Piper

Bernard Ramm

Paul Rees

Marv Rosenthal

Oswald J. Smith

James Russel Spillman

R.C. Sproul

Charles Spurgeon

John R.W. Stott

Merrell Tenny

B.B. Warfield

Isaac Watts

Charles Wesley

William Wilberforce

Andrew Wommack

Ulrich Zwingli

 

Personally, I think Jesus and the apostle Paul are on that list, but they can speak for themselves.

[Omegaman 3.0]

wow this whole thread is a mess, i jumped in at the wrong time. Plus when anyone is anything but "pre-trib", they are messed up doctrinally in other places... I'm out.

 

Plus this is a defense of the pre trib rapture thread. Not a debate. 

 

That is quite amusing!  I suppose calling a large percentage of believers "messed up doctrinally" is one way to defend pre-tribism! 

[Last Daze]

 

wow this whole thread is a mess, i jumped in at the wrong time. Plus when anyone is anything but "pre-trib", they are messed up doctrinally in other places... I'm out.

 

Plus this is a defense of the pre trib rapture thread. Not a debate. 

 

That is quite amusing!  I suppose calling a large percentage of believers "messed up doctrinally" is one way to defend pre-tribism! 

 

 

It's called the "point and shriek" defense.

[InSeasonOut]

 

wow this whole thread is a mess, i jumped in at the wrong time. Plus when anyone is anything but "pre-trib", they are messed up doctrinally in other places... I'm out.

 

Plus this is a defense of the pre trib rapture thread. Not a debate. 

 

That is quite amusing!  I suppose calling a large percentage of believers "messed up doctrinally" is one way to defend pre-tribism! 

 

 

 

Yeah, If they are not pre trib they are messed up doctrinally in other places.

While i do not know half the people on that list i recognize, non-dispensationalists, Calvinists, Arminians, modern bible users, old-earthers, post-trib thus denying eternal security, and CS Lewis dabbled in the occult while he was "saved" ... define that....

They are messed up doctrinally!!!

 

Plus if i look into it i guarentee i can find replacement theologists. AKA Messed up doctrinally...

 

everyone is entitlted to their doctrinal convictions, but i believe they are wrong in their understanding of scripture

Edited August 1, 2015 by InSeasonOut

[Guest Robert]

ALL of us are messed up, period. That's why we need Jesus in the first place. But as to the question here: Hal Lindsey pointed out that in this dispensation (the age of Grace), there is now no difference between Jew and gentile who trust in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:12). The Age of Law was paused before "Daniel's last week", when the kingdom was offered by Jesus Christ to Israel and they rejected Him by crucifying him. After the Rapture, the "clock" starts again on the last week when the Beast makes the agreement with the "many".

My point here is that if the Church were to be here for the Tribulation, then there would be a difference between the Jewish and Gentile believers. The Age of Law starts once again, and the 490 years Daniel spoke of finishes out. Not to mention there really is no point to the church being here for the Tribulation: if Christ's blood is not enough to cleanse us, nothing else is. If it's to suffer, we would do well to keep in mind that there are already believers out here in the world who are going through tremendous trials and suffering. Another thing to consider as well: if it were a post-trib rapture, Rev 19 mentions that we would return with Jesus Christ at Armageddon. So, we would be running into ourselves and literally would not know if we were coming or going.

And the Rapture is called "The Blessed Hope"; not much of a hope if we leave after the trib. That's like calling the fire department for a fire after it burned to the ground and all that's left is smoking ashes.

[Retrobyter]

On February 26, 2012 at 2:32 PM, jasoncran said:

revalation 13, is the beast system a govt. each time roman emporors died the laws change.
...
so when nero died a change came and new "beast" arose.
...
now then let me ask the literalists this which is true?
...
yet in the so called dispy millenium
...
Isaiah 66
...
now then here its talking about the shabats and the feasts being forever, these are all marked by the moons movements if the moon and sun are gone what then??

Shalom, jasoncran.

Your interpretation of Revelation is historical (preteristic), but history doesn't match the text. There are details in Revelation that are inconsistent with the historical record. No, Revelation is not primarily a record of history; it is a PREDICTION of future events that are, even now, yet to occur. It's a book of PROPHECY.

The Millennium (Latin: mille + annium = "1000 + of-years" for the Greek: chilia etee = "1000 years" found in Revelation 20:1-7)
is a 1000-year period in the future when the Enemy (Hebrew: haSatan)
is locked away while Yeshua` (a Hebrew name transliterated into Greek as Ieesous and then into English as "Jesus") 
rules and reigns over Israel and then over the world as He subdues His enemies one by one.

Revelation 20:1-6
1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
KJV

This is important to understand, because the time period in Isaiah 66 is more about this 1000-year period than it is about the New Earth with its capital city, the New Jerusalem. On the other hand, you're right about the shabbats and the feasts being forever, and I've made a similar argument to others about the movements of the sun and the moon.

Revelation 21:23-26
23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.
24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.
25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
KJV

Notice that the text does NOT say that the sun and moon are gone or no longer needed. It says that the CITY (the New Jerusalem) will have no need for them! The rest of the earth WILL still need them!

We also have the prophecies of David:

Psalm 89:20-37
20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.
KJV

Thus, David said that the sun and the moon shall endure and be established forever. An interesting verse that gives us a bit more information about this eternal state is found in Isaiah 24:23:

Isaiah 24:23
23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.
KJV

This is an anthropomorphism that says that the moon will be mixed up (in its phases) and the sun ashamed (outdone) when the LORD of Hosts, YHWH ShaVa'owt, shall reign in the mountain/city (the New Jerusalem) and before His ancients BRIGHTLY! The sun will still be there and so will the moon, but the sun shall be outdone by the bright light of Yeshua`, the "Right Arm" of YHWH, and the moon won't "know" which light to reflect more! The phases on the moon will be confused by the TWO lights!

However, as you noted, there shall still be Shabbatiym (Sabbaths or Saturdays) and mow`adiym (or appointed times or festivals) to observe.

Isaiah 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
KJV

The better road to take, imo, is to be a PARTIAL preterist. That is, while SOME of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24 & 25, Mark 13, and Luke 21) is already fulfilled, not all of it is fulfilled, yet! A much smaller portion of Revelation, namely the letters to the seven churches, has already taken place, but the larger portion is yet to be fulfilled!

[WarriorforHim]

Revelation 3:10-13..¹⁰ Because you have kept the word of My ^[a]perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of ^[b]testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole ^[c]world, to ^[d]test those who dwell on the earth. ¹¹ I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. ¹² He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. ¹³ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’