Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Alive]

I am not interested at this time in discussing your overall eschatology here, although I agree with some of it--I would like to point out that you are inserting assumption of meaning in Luke 17 that isn't clearly stated. Can you offer scripture that clearly corroborates your interpretation of Luke 17:34-37?

[iamlamad]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:12 AM, choir loft said:

Did you read my post?  

Scripture says those who will be left behind are the BLESSED of God.  

Those that are taken are removed by DEMONS unto destruction.

Proponents of the common interpretation of rapture have already decided on the story they'll accept and use bits and pieces of scripture to justify their false doctrine.  None bother to consider Biblical CONTEXT.

This is always the way satan confuses humanity.  This has always been the way we convinced ourselves of comfortable, but false ideas.  

Read the Bible.

When Jesus' disciples asked where the people who were to be removed would be taken HIS words are the ones we need to consider;

“Where, Lord?” they asked. 

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:37)

Carcass is a simple word which means a DEAD BODY.  Look it up in any dictionary.  Vultures is a reference to birds that subsist upon dead meat.  Vultures, or eagles as it is sometimes translated refer to carrion eaters, predators, etc.  Symbolically the word here refers to demons since holy angels aren't ever associated with the dead.

The meaning here is clear, but has been reversed by those with a religious agenda to confuse and muddy the clear teaching of Holy Writ.

Read it again and consider the context.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

QUIT Hollering in a pre-trib thread!

[DeighAnn]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:19 PM, Linkin said:

Translators presuppose something that is nowhere taught in the Bible, that dead people are in heaven, either their ghosts or bodily resurrected pretribbers. They then impose their theological presuppositions and bias upon the Scriptures and translate πάντων τῶν ἁγίων αὐτοῦ in 1 Thess. 3:13 as “all His saints” (ESV, KJV, NASB, NKJV). However, the translators of the NIV, NJB, and a few others did not impose their own false presuppositions on this passage and translated it accurately as “all His holy ones” leaving the reader to decide whether it refers to angels or humans. In the LGV I translated it as “all His holy ones” and added a footnote pointing to these other passages.

LEV 11:44

For I am the LORD your God: ye shall therefore sanctify yourselves, and ye shall be holy; for I am holy: neither shall ye defile yourselves with any manner of creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.


19  

1And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

2Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

3Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

 

7Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the LORD your God.

8And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you.

[iamlamad]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:12 AM, choir loft said:

Did you read my post?  

Scripture says those who will be left behind are the BLESSED of God.  

Those that are taken are removed by DEMONS unto destruction.

Proponents of the common interpretation of rapture have already decided on the story they'll accept and use bits and pieces of scripture to justify their false doctrine.  None bother to consider Biblical CONTEXT.

This is always the way satan confuses humanity.  This has always been the way we convinced ourselves of comfortable, but false ideas.  

Read the Bible.

When Jesus' disciples asked where the people who were to be removed would be taken HIS words are the ones we need to consider;

“Where, Lord?” they asked. 

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:37)

Carcass is a simple word which means a DEAD BODY.  Look it up in any dictionary.  Vultures is a reference to birds that subsist upon dead meat.  Vultures, or eagles as it is sometimes translated refer to carrion eaters, predators, etc.  Symbolically the word here refers to demons since holy angels aren't ever associated with the dead.

The meaning here is clear, but has been reversed by those with a religious agenda to confuse and muddy the clear teaching of Holy Writ.

Read it again and consider the context.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Ha ha! Good try, but that is a different left behind. That is probably those left behind when the parable of the tares take place. 

[seeking the lost]

On 12/17/2022 at 10:12 AM, choir loft said:

Did you read my post?  

Scripture says those who will be left behind are the BLESSED of God.  

Those that are taken are removed by DEMONS unto destruction.

Proponents of the common interpretation of rapture have already decided on the story they'll accept and use bits and pieces of scripture to justify their false doctrine.  None bother to consider Biblical CONTEXT.

This is always the way satan confuses humanity.  This has always been the way we convinced ourselves of comfortable, but false ideas.  

Read the Bible.

When Jesus' disciples asked where the people who were to be removed would be taken HIS words are the ones we need to consider;

“Where, Lord?” they asked. 

Jesus answered, “Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:37)

Carcass is a simple word which means a DEAD BODY.  Look it up in any dictionary.  Vultures is a reference to birds that subsist upon dead meat.  Vultures, or eagles as it is sometimes translated refer to carrion eaters, predators, etc.  Symbolically the word here refers to demons since holy angels aren't ever associated with the dead.

The meaning here is clear, but has been reversed by those with a religious agenda to confuse and muddy the clear teaching of Holy Writ.

Read it again and consider the context.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Greetings

I would encourage you not to call the rapture rubbish.  Much of what is being debated on this site is based on doctrines of demons.  There is a rapture and it comes at the end of the thousand years.  That is the time that the dead in Crist are raised.  There is a warning about adding to the writing but these doctrines take the liberty to add resurrections and raptures where ever they please.

You are correct to point out that the tares, those planted by the evil one are taken out first. (looking forward to being left behind)  Ezekiel 9 is a pattern of what will happen on that day of separation.  There are many passages that indicate this very thing but those given to recreational rapture finding can not see the truth.

I like your observation of the carcass.  The carcass is buzzard bait.

[choir loft]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:29 AM, seeking the lost said:

Greetings

I would encourage you not to call the rapture rubbish.  Much of what is being debated on this site is based on doctrines of demons.  There is a rapture and it comes at the end of the thousand years.  That is the time that the dead in Crist are raised.  There is a warning about adding to the writing but these doctrines take the liberty to add resurrections and raptures where ever they please.

You are correct to point out that the tares, those planted by the evil one are taken out first. (looking forward to being left behind)  Ezekiel 9 is a pattern of what will happen on that day of separation.  There are many passages that indicate this very thing but those given to recreational rapture finding can not see the truth.

I like your observation of the carcass.  The carcass is buzzard bait.

You seem to exhibit the misdirected attitude that the doctrines of man are divine.  They aren't.  The doctrines of rapture & millenium are all concepts of the western church. Indeed they are further restricted to American evangelicals and no other.

These doctrines are NOT canonized scripture.  

Please keep this in mind as we proceed to examine them.  As non-canonical interpretations they are subject to review approval and/or rejection if not outright mockery.  For the most part only a very small segment of Christendom accepts the rapture dogma as binding upon their faith.  The rest see it as either an academic exercise, as divisive ideas or for the pure nonsense it really is.

The word rapture appears nowhere in Holy Writ.  

The return of messiah is first mentioned in Daniel and then in the NT.  That HE shall descend upon the earth with power and authority isn't the issue here.  Many Jews look forward to the coming of Messiah as well as most Christians.  So do I.  The issue, which has become clouded by false interpretations, is WHEN.

Rapture dogma has been linked by Christian tradition to a more intellectually acceptable doctrine called the millenium.  A political reign of Christ upon the earth for one thousand years has been discussed by church theologians from the first centuries of its licensed existence.  Events of the early twentieth century proved most of their interpretations to be falsification.  

There are three basic theories of the millenium and the return of Christ: pre mid and post returns of Christ.  

First is that Jesus will return to earth PRIOR to His reign of one thousand years.  Simply stated the interpretation assumes the whole world will have been persuaded of the gospel of Christ before His advent.  This theory neglects Jesus' own words that global persuasion wouldn't happen. (Matt 7:13) The pre-millenial theory also denies the fact of history.  By WWI it was generally admitted by most Christian theologians that the entire world would NOT be persuaded to join the church.  The pre-millenial 2nd advent of Christ has been generally  abandoned by legitimate theologians.

Second is that Jesus will return to earth DURING a seven year period of terrible conflict and Jewish persecution called the Tribulation or the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).  

This seven year period was defined and predicted by the prophet Daniel.  The flaw in the sequence of expectations is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.  

Jeremiah said it would primarily affect Jews. Daniel said it would last 7 years.  Jesus said it would happen ONLY ONCE.  (Mark 13:19)

The period known as THE HOLOCAUST fulfills these prophecies to the letter.  It lasted 7 years from 1938 to 1945.  It affected Jews as no other persecution has ever done.  If Jesus is considered to be an authority we may rest assured it will NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.   Therefore predictions that a mid Tribulation advent of Jesus Christ with or without a 'rapture' are mistaken.

This leaves us with the third interpretation of the advent of Christ - at the end of one thousand years of devastation upon the earth.  Such interpretations become far too complex to discuss here.  It's sufficient to state that such interpretations are so convoluted and confused that even those who give them credence do not do so whole heartedly.

Does this mean the Lord will not return to us?  Indeed no.  He WILL return as HE promised.  Our problem is that human understanding is limited in scope as well as severely affected by the agendas of those who profit (not prophet) from personal aggrandizement when they make heated assertions of their own.

At its most basic point the rapture is a doctrine of cowards.  Although its linked to the millennium in the minds of many these links are tenuous at best.  The Bible nowhere states that God will REMOVE His people from trouble.  Indeed it promises over and over again that He will walk with them through it - by faith.  Therefore the rapture is also a demonic doctrine that subverts faith itself.  More can be written about this aspect, but for now its sufficient to say that its bogus.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Edited February 16, 2023 by choir loft

[farouk]

On 2/14/2023 at 11:29 AM, seeking the lost said:

Greetings

I would encourage you not to call the rapture rubbish.  Much of what is being debated on this site is based on doctrines of demons.  There is a rapture and it comes at the end of the thousand years.  That is the time that the dead in Crist are raised.  There is a warning about adding to the writing but these doctrines take the liberty to add resurrections and raptures where ever they please.

You are correct to point out that the tares, those planted by the evil one are taken out first. (looking forward to being left behind)  Ezekiel 9 is a pattern of what will happen on that day of separation.  There are many passages that indicate this very thing but those given to recreational rapture finding can not see the truth.

I like your observation of the carcass.  The carcass is buzzard bait.

Hi Sir. It's interesting that 1 Cor. 11.26 speaks of the Lord's coming in relation to the church and not to any other entity.

[Retrobyter]

29 minutes ago, choir loft said:

You seem to exhibit the misdirected attitude that the doctrines of man are divine.  They aren't.  The doctrines of rapture & millenium are all concepts of the western church. Indeed they are further restricted to American evangelicals and no other.

There are a few technicalities that one must discuss.

First, the "rapture" is a biblical doctrine. It is found in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17. It is also mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:51-57. HOWEVER, WHERE one goes after they are raptured into the sky and HOW LONG one is departed is a matter of one's theology, specifically, one's eschatology.

Second, the "millennium" is also a matter of fact in Revelation 20:1-7. There, the "chilia etee," the "one thousand years," are also mentioned ... SIX times in as many verses! WHEN it begins SEEMS to be an issue for some, but the text says that it starts with the second coming of the Lord, for the ones resurrected "live and reign WITH Christ for a thousand years." That would be kinda hard to do if they didn't start their reign at the same time, and Yeeshuwa` ("Jesus") Himself said, "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory!" (Matthew 25:31)

29 minutes ago, choir loft said:

These doctrines are NOT canonized scripture.  

Please keep this in mind as we proceed to examine them.  As non-canonical interpretations they are subject to review approval and/or rejection if not outright mockery.  For the most part only a very small segment of Christendom accepts the rapture dogma as binding upon their faith.  The rest see it as either an academic exercise, as divisive ideas or for the pure nonsense it really is.

The word rapture appears nowhere in Holy Writ.  

The return of messiah is first mentioned in Daniel and then in the NT.  That HE shall descend upon the earth with power and authority isn't the issue here.  Many Jews look forward to the coming of Messiah as well as most Christians.  So do I.  The issue, which has become clouded by false interpretations, is WHEN.

Rapture dogma has been linked by Christian tradition to a more intellectually acceptable doctrine called the millenium.  A political reign of Christ upon the earth for one thousand years has been discussed by church theologians from the first centuries of its licensed existence.  Events of the early twentieth century proved most of their interpretations to be falsification.

Oh? Which parts are false? Since it's not the political reign of the Messiah upon the earth, then it must be the church theologians that are false, and how do the events of the early 20th C. prove falsification?

29 minutes ago, choir loft said:

There are three basic theories of the millenium and the return of Christ: pre, mid, and post returns of Christ.  

First is that Jesus will return to earth PRIOR to His reign of one thousand years.  Simply stated the interpretation assumes the whole world will have been persuaded of the gospel of Christ before His advent.  This theory neglects Jesus' own words that global persuasion wouldn't happen. (Matt 7:13) The pre-millenial theory also denies the fact of history.  By WWI it was generally admitted by most Christian theologians that the entire world would NOT be persuaded to join the church.  The pre-millenial 2nd advent of Christ has been generally  abandoned by legitimate theologians.

Second is that Jesus will return to earth DURING a seven year period of terrible conflict and Jewish persecution called the Tribulation or the Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:7).  

This seven year period was defined and predicted by the prophet Daniel.  The flaw in the sequence of expectations is that the Time of Jacob's Trouble HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.  

Jeremiah said it would primarily affect Jews. Daniel said it would last 7 years.  Jesus said it would happen ONLY ONCE.  (Mark 13:19)

You're confusing "pre-trib, mid-trib (pre-wrath), and post-trib" with "pre-mil, post-mil, and a-mil." "Pre-trib, mid-trib (pre-wrath), and post-trib" (as well as "partial rapture") are all pre-mil, which say that the Lord returns and THEN the millennium begins.

"Post-mil" suggests that things get better and better until the world has been converted and THEN the Messiah comes.

"A-mil" says that there is NO millennium per se. They suggest that the millennium is a way to describe all the time between the Ascension of the Lord until His Return.

29 minutes ago, choir loft said:

The period known as THE HOLOCAUST fulfills these prophecies to the letter.  It lasted 7 years from 1938 to 1945.  It affected Jews as no other persecution has ever done.  If Jesus is considered to be an authority we may rest assured it will NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.   Therefore predictions that a mid Tribulation advent of Jesus Christ with or without a 'rapture' are mistaken.

Actually, the "tribulation" is not restricted to 7 years. The 70th Seven ("Week") of Daniel 9 is NOT ABOUT the "tribulation!" It was a time when the Davidic Covenant was given strength; was ready to be fulfilled! The first half of the 7 years were the 3.5 years of the Messiah's First Offer of the Kingdom to the Jews (His 3.5-year "ministry.")

Daniel 9:27 (KJV)

27 And he (the Messiah of verse 26) shall confirm the (Davidic) covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

See, David was King over Yhudah ("Judah") for 7 (or 7.5) years. At that time, he was "King of the Jews." Then, He was made King over all Israel for the remainder of His reign, which lasted for a total of 40 years.

2 Samuel 2:1-4a (KJV)

1 And it came to pass after this, that David inquired of the LORD, saying,

"Shall I go up into any of the cities of Judah?"

And the LORD said unto him,

"Go up."

And David said,

"Whither shall I go up?"

And he said,

"Unto Hebron."

2 So David went up thither, and his two wives also, Ahinoam the Jezreelitess, and Abigail Nabal's wife the Carmelite. 3 And his men that were with him did David bring up, every man with his household: and they dwelt in the cities of Hebron. 4 And the men of Judah came, and there THEY ANOINTED DAVID KING OVER THE HOUSE OF JUDAH. ...

1 Kings 2:10-12 (KJV)

10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David. 11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: SEVEN YEARS REIGNED HE IN HEBRON, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem. 12 Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.

1 Chronicles 3:1-4 (KJV)

1 Now these were the sons of David, which were born unto him in Hebron; the firstborn Amnon, of Ahinoam the Jezreelitess; the second Daniel, of Abigail the Carmelitess: 2 The third, Absalom the son of Maachah the daughter of Talmai king of Geshur: the fourth, Adonijah the son of Haggith: 3 The fifth, Shephatiah of Abital: the sixth, Ithream by Eglah his wife. 4 These six were born unto him in Hebron; and THERE HE REIGNED SEVEN YEARS AND SIX MONTHS: and in Jerusalem he reigned thirty and three years.

1 Chronicles 29:26-27 (KJV)

26 Thus David the son of Jesse reigned over all Israel. 27 And the time that he reigned over Israel was forty years; SEVEN YEARS REIGNED HE IN HEBRON, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

 

29 minutes ago, choir loft said:

This leaves us with the third interpretation of the advent of Christ - at the end of one thousand years of devastation upon the earth.  Such interpretations become far too complex to discuss here.  It's sufficient to state that such interpretations are so convoluted and confused that even those who give them credence do not do so whole heartedly.

Does this mean the Lord will not return to us?  Indeed no.  He WILL return as HE promised.  Our problem is that human understanding is limited in scope as well as severely affected by the agendas of those who profit (not prophet) from personal aggrandizement when they make heated assertions of their own.

At its most basic point the rapture is a doctrine of cowards.  Although its linked to the millennium in the minds of many these links are tenuous at best.  The Bible nowhere states that God will REMOVE His people from trouble.  Indeed it promises over and over again that He will walk with them through it - by faith.  Therefore the rapture is also a demonic doctrine that subverts faith itself.  More can be written about this aspect, but for now its sufficient to say that its bogus.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

The Rapture does not take anyone to "Heaven!" It takes us THROUGH the "heavens" - THROUGH the "skies!" It's a TRANSPORT SYSTEM taking the Resurrected people from wherever they were buried or scattered to the Middle East, particularly Israel.

[seeking the lost]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:24 AM, farouk said:

Hi Sir. It's interesting that 1 Cor. 11.26 speaks of the Lord's coming in relation to the church and not to any other entity.

That is a stretch.  The only thing this verse says is that the church observes communion, showing forth His death until He comes.  The verse does not say that the coming is for any particular group.  The Church is to remember the death of Christ until He comes.

[seeking the lost]

On 2/16/2023 at 7:55 AM, choir loft said:

You seem to exhibit the misdirected attitude that the doctrines of man are divine.  They aren't.  The doctrines of rapture & millenium are all concepts of the western church. Indeed they are further restricted to American evangelicals and no other.

My view is that many of the teachings of the rapture are demon inspired.  Most of these doctrines require adding to the scripture or taking away from it.

The demonic realm is very interested in driving man to be cursed.  The word of the Lord is, do not add to the writings of this book or you will be cursed.  The demons have deceived people with these words, God does not want you to suffer.  The inspiration of demons then is to assist in helping to find where the exit is.  The exit is the rapture.

The rapture is connected with the resurrection which is yet future.  No one should add resurrections or suppose that there is a rapture without the resurrection of the dead. 

The western Church is very interested in who can find the most raptures. Some teachers have identified as many as 16 raptures. I call it recreational rapture finding.  Most of the world is in severe persecution already.

Nothing May Be Added or Removed

18 I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19 And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.