seeking the lost Posted March 8, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 499 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 210 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2023 On 2/24/2023 at 2:26 PM, choir loft said: Everybody is caught up in the rapture fallacy - doctrinally if not literally. I've heard at least 16 different versions of it. If it's truly of God and in the Bible there ought to be one version that everyone accepts as valid. One example of validity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There's no argument about that point at all. In point of fact, it was INVENTED by a Jesuit priest in the latter part of the 16th century so as to confuse the followers of the protestant reformation. At bottom line its a doctrine of cowards - those who don't want to exercise their faith and who prefer an easy escape mechanism if its a fantasy. The context of scripture is how we determine truth. Context firmly establishes that God wants His people to walk THROUGH the troubles of earth by relying upon faith in Him to see them THROUGH it. Rapture fanatics absolutely refuse to allow the fact of over a dozen variations of their favorite heresy into their minds. They prefer the Star Trek beam-out version regardless of its ridiculousness. Keep waiting. The rest of us will be in heaven with the Lord and you'll still be sitting on your mountain top (or under your bedroom mattress) hiding from hard times. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Yes, there are many theories. The rapture is a reality because the scripture does tell us of that event. The resurrection of the dead in Christ is the event that must precede the rapture. Jesus clearly identifies that time as the last day. The only time that could be without doing violence to the text is at the end of the thousand years. The purpose of the rapture is not to save from wrath but to take people away from the earth which is being melted with fervent heat and will be no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FJK Posted March 8, 2023 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 43 Topics Per Day: 0.10 Content Count: 3,349 Content Per Day: 7.79 Reputation: 1,305 Days Won: 1 Joined: 03/01/2023 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2023 1 hour ago, seeking the lost said: Yes, there are many theories. I have to ask: Does any of that really matter? How should it affect how we live our lives as we live them now, facing the trials and tribulations of them as Christians? How are we told to live our lives until it does happen, and does knowing when it will happen change anything about how we are to live? Starts becoming one of those Martin Luther and his apple tree things, doesn't it? At least that's the way I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seeking the lost Posted March 8, 2023 Group: Advanced Member Followers: 4 Topic Count: 3 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 499 Content Per Day: 0.17 Reputation: 210 Days Won: 0 Joined: 05/15/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted March 8, 2023 57 minutes ago, FJK said: I have to ask: Does any of that really matter? How should it affect how we live our lives as we live them now, facing the trials and tribulations of them as Christians? How are we told to live our lives until it does happen, and does knowing when it will happen change anything about how we are to live? Starts becoming one of those Martin Luther and his apple tree things, doesn't it? At least that's the way I see it. The recreational rapture finding is very dangerous because the practice violates the word. The word is very clear in Rev.:22 Nothing May Be Added 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely. 18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.… Most of the theories have to add or alter the time of the resurrection. Failure to pay attention to the curse was the problem of man from the beginning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted March 10, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,219 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 333 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted March 10, 2023 (edited) On 3/8/2023 at 6:27 PM, seeking the lost said: The recreational rapture finding is very dangerous because the practice violates the word. The word is very clear in Rev.:22 Nothing May Be Added 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely. 18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.… Most of the theories have to add or alter the time of the resurrection. Failure to pay attention to the curse was the problem of man from the beginning. I agree with you, but many will doubtless contradict what has been written. Many are convinced of the truth of their interpretations of scripture regarding Christian eschatology. In truth there are more than 16 variations of tribulation, rapture & millenium doctrines and dogmas. If truth WERE truth would there not be one truth for all? I submit the problem isn't with interpretation, but with the sequence of it. Jews correctly interpret the advent of messiah (ha-mashiach) and continue to expect His arrival. They deny other interpretations that indicate messiah would suffer for the SINs of man (Isaiah 53) or those that affirm the Trinity. (Deuteronomy 6:4 *) They've got the interpretations correct, but they stumble over the sequence of events. They expected a liberator when they called Jesus 'son of David'. Instead they got a suffering servant - 'son of Joseph'. In the same way, the church has missed the boat regarding the sequence of prophecy of the End Times. Revelation 13:3 has already happened as has the Tribulation. The facts support scripture. The sequence of church understanding does not. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... (*) Shema Yisrael, Adonai elohenu, Adonai echad. (Hear O Israel the Lord your God, the Lord is one) The last Hebrew word in this oldest prayer of Judaism is 'echad'. It is a plural form of the English rendered word 'one'. The Hebrew word 'yachid' is an absolute one - as in "I have one dollar remaining in my wallet before payday". The word 'echad' implies plurality - as in a family or team. For instance, a man may play the position of catcher, pitcher or outfielder on the NY Yankee team, yet all are Yankees. Jews deny the meaning of their own oldest prayer - God is (more than) one. Edited March 10, 2023 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted March 17, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2023 On 2/24/2023 at 2:26 PM, choir loft said: Everybody is caught up in the rapture fallacy - doctrinally if not literally. I've heard at least 16 different versions of it. If it's truly of God and in the Bible there ought to be one version that everyone accepts as valid. One example of validity is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. There's no argument about that point at all. In point of fact, it was INVENTED by a Jesuit priest in the latter part of the 16th century so as to confuse the followers of the protestant reformation. At bottom line its a doctrine of cowards - those who don't want to exercise their faith and who prefer an easy escape mechanism if its a fantasy. The context of scripture is how we determine truth. Context firmly establishes that God wants His people to walk THROUGH the troubles of earth by relying upon faith in Him to see them THROUGH it. Rapture fanatics absolutely refuse to allow the fact of over a dozen variations of their favorite heresy into their minds. They prefer the Star Trek beam-out version regardless of its ridiculousness. Keep waiting. The rest of us will be in heaven with the Lord and you'll still be sitting on your mountain top (or under your bedroom mattress) hiding from hard times. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... There is a reason there are 5 wise virgins and 5 foolish virgins. When the Lord comes for His bride, the foolish will not be ready. They are not watching for the soon coming of the Lord. that's me, with a carefully placed sock... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Light Posted March 17, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 5 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 2,078 Content Per Day: 1.11 Reputation: 201 Days Won: 0 Joined: 03/17/2019 Status: Offline Share Posted March 17, 2023 On 3/8/2023 at 5:27 PM, seeking the lost said: The recreational rapture finding is very dangerous because the practice violates the word. The word is very clear in Rev.:22 Nothing May Be Added 17The Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” Let the one who hears say, “Come!” And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely. 18I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. 19And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book.… Most of the theories have to add or alter the time of the resurrection. Failure to pay attention to the curse was the problem of man from the beginning. No sir, the danger is not watching and being ready for the Messiah. Hebrews 9 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choir loft Posted March 24, 2023 Group: Diamond Member Followers: 6 Topic Count: 69 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 1,219 Content Per Day: 0.38 Reputation: 333 Days Won: 0 Joined: 08/23/2015 Status: Offline Birthday: 10/10/1947 Share Posted March 24, 2023 (edited) On 3/8/2023 at 4:00 PM, seeking the lost said: Yes, there are many theories. The rapture is a reality because the scripture does tell us of that event. The resurrection of the dead in Christ is the event that must precede the rapture. Jesus clearly identifies that time as the last day. The only time that could be without doing violence to the text is at the end of the thousand years. The purpose of the rapture is not to save from wrath but to take people away from the earth which is being melted with fervent heat and will be no more. I really wish you'd read my post - all the way through. Again there are 16 different variations of rapture, tribulation & millenium theories. No two of them agree. They don't agree because of a few simple reasons. First, are speculations surrounding the Second Coming involving events that have already happened. The Tribulation of the Jews is one of them and is already past. (btw, I'm not a Preterist. I'm an historian.) Second, are doctrines that are directly disproved by history or which depend upon a nebulous interpretation of it. For instance, three different versions of the millenium are linked to the second coming. Most theologians of worth, as well as church historians, recognize only two remain. Following the human disaster of WWI, theologians realized that certain specific events regarding the pre-millenial advent of Christ weren't plausible. Since the tribulation has already happened, it's not possible to peg the immediate second coming to that event either. Third, and most important, is that although there's a basis for the Second Coming in BOTH the old and new testaments, the problem with interpretation is the SEQUENCE of events involved. Jews got the First Coming wrong (and still do) because they didn't understand the sequence of events surrounding Jesus' first appearance among us. Scriptures are quoted stating either that Jesus didn't arrive, that He wasn't who He said He was or that messiah is yet to come. Jews didn't read their own scripture and got it wrong. Today, Christians don't read their own scripture either - and get it wrong all over again. Neither will they listen to reproof because they have hardened their hearts and closed their minds. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Edited March 24, 2023 by choir loft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kwikphilly Posted March 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 96 Topic Count: 307 Topics Per Day: 0.08 Content Count: 18,143 Content Per Day: 4.62 Reputation: 27,832 Days Won: 327 Joined: 08/03/2013 Status: Offline Share Posted March 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, choir loft said: I really wish you'd read my post - all the way through. Again there are 16 different variations of rapture, tribulation & millenium theories. No two of them agree. They don't agree because of a few simple reasons. First is that a point or two have already happened; the tribulation being one that's past. (btw, I'm not a Preterist. I'm an historian.) Second, is that arguments abound about three different versions of the millenium and the second coming. Most theologians of worth (and church historians too) recognize that only two remain. Following the human disaster of WWI, theologians realized that the pre-millenium advent of Christ would be impossible. Since the tribulation has already happened its not possible to peg the second coming by that even either. Third although there is a basis for the Second Coming in BOTH the old and new testaments, the problem with interpretation is the SEQUENCE of events that precede it. Jews got the First Coming wrong (and still do) because they didn't understand the sequence of events surrounding Jesus' arrival at that time. Scripture quotes abound stating either that Jesus didn't arrive, that He wasn't who He said He was or that messiah is yet to come. Jews didn't read their own scripture. Today, Christians don't read their own scripture either. Neither will they listen to reproof because they have hardened their hearts and closed their minds. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... Amen! Though reading & Understanding is 2 different things,isn't it? You are right about hardened hearts,there is where the Eyes of Understanding are shut! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted March 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 195 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.51 Reputation: 9,017 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted March 24, 2023 High towers of any sort come down with much difficulty. One of the main reasons has to do with taking points of view personally--or put another way, they become a part of a sort of self-actualization or self-value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alive Posted March 24, 2023 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 22 Topic Count: 195 Topics Per Day: 0.11 Content Count: 11,054 Content Per Day: 6.51 Reputation: 9,017 Days Won: 36 Joined: 09/12/2019 Status: Offline Birthday: 01/09/1956 Share Posted March 24, 2023 20 minutes ago, choir loft said: I really wish you'd read my post - all the way through. Again there are 16 different variations of rapture, tribulation & millenium theories. No two of them agree. They don't agree because of a few simple reasons. First, are speculations surrounding the Second Coming involving events that have already happened. The Tribulation of the Jews is one of them and is already past. (btw, I'm not a Preterist. I'm an historian.) Second, are doctrines that are directly disproved by history or which depend upon a nebulous interpretation of it. For instance, three different versions of the millenium are linked to the second coming. Most theologians of worth, as well as church historians, recognize only two remain. Following the human disaster of WWI, theologians realized that certain specific events regarding the pre-millenial advent of Christ weren't plausible. Since the tribulation has already happened, it's not possible to peg the immediate second coming to that event either. Third, and most important, is that although there's a basis for the Second Coming in BOTH the old and new testaments, the problem with interpretation is the SEQUENCE of events involved. Jews got the First Coming wrong (and still do) because they didn't understand the sequence of events surrounding Jesus' first appearance among us. Scriptures are quoted stating either that Jesus didn't arrive, that He wasn't who He said He was or that messiah is yet to come. Jews didn't read their own scripture and got it wrong. Today, Christians don't read their own scripture either - and get it wrong all over again. Neither will they listen to reproof because they have hardened their hearts and closed their minds. that's me, hollering from the choir loft... I am not a preterist either. I try to be a realist and leave speculation and the newspaper out of things, although the latter can't be done entirely. I am convinced that much of that long day covered in Matthew starting with verse 21:18 has already happened, but that doesn't mean that some of it doesn't apply to our future. I just do not know. The other point that I am convinced of more and more of late--is that nobody on earth fully understands 'Revelation'. I do believe that the folks back then did, however--as the Helper annointed members to explain it. :-) I've asked the Lord why these things aren't clear and why there are so many different views held by honest men. He doesn't tell me. I am left with the position of waiting for a loud shout and a trumpet sounding. :-) A few months ago--on the forum folks were talking about and convinced that Russia was about to descend upon Israel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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