Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[ARGOSY]

15 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

throughout scripture, both OT and NT, the "day of the Lord" is not a literal 24 hour day.  It is a period.  One should really do a study on "day of the Lord" and "that day" in scripture.  In the OT especially, it is reference to the period of the Great Tribulation.  So yes, our gathering is associated with the "day of the Lord", but that doesn't imply that the gathering happens on the literal 24 hr period of the day of His physical return.  A lot happens during "that day" which refers to a period of time longer than a literal 24 hour day.

I dont buy that extended day of the Lord view. It is often in context of an actual day, but Pretribs like to extend it. Post tribs do not need to extend it. It's just one of those mental gymnastics that pretribbers need to use, but nothing contradicts the simpler view that the day of the Lord, is a day. 

[ARGOSY]

4 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

the address is given to the Hebrews.  All thru Matthew 24, the events are the ones those in Israel will experience first hand.

Also, the "elect" of Matthew 24:31 is more likely a reference to Jacob / Israel.  From Isaiah...

Isaiah 45:4 (NKJV) For Jacob My servant's sake,
And Israel My elect,
I have even called you by your name;
I have named you, though you have not known Me.

And these "elect" being gathered from the four winds...

Ezekiel 20:34-38 (NKJV) I will bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you are scattered, with a mighty hand, with an outstretched arm, and with fury poured out. 35 And I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there I will plead My case with you face to face. 36 Just as I pleaded My case with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so I will plead My case with you," says the Lord God.
37 "I will make you pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant; 38 I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 20:41-42 (NKJV) I will accept you as a sweet aroma when I bring you out from the peoples and gather you out of the countries where you have been scattered; and I will be hallowed in you before the Gentiles. 42 Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I bring you into the land of Israel, into the country for which I raised My hand in an oath to give to your fathers.

confirmed in Isaiah....

Isaiah 11:12 (NKJV) He will set up a banner for the nations,
And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah
From the four corners of the earth.

Isaiah 43:5-6 (NKJV Strong's) Fear not, for I am with you;
I will bring your descendants from the east,
And gather you from the west;
6 I will say to the north, 'Give them up!'
And to the south, 'Do not keep them back!'
Bring My sons from afar,
And My daughters from the ends of the earth—

 

The elect is the church. 

Titus 1:1

Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ to further the faith of God’s elect and their knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness

 

1 Peter 1 

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, ² who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

[ARGOSY]

15 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

See previous post.  I gave the verses in Isaiah I and the "old coot" Hippolytus are referring to.  

Isaiah 26?  How long is "a little moment"? 

2 hours? 7 years? I dont think we can force a doctrine from two words that don't hint at a timeframe. 

Another thought is that Israel must hide during the GT, in their safe place in the wilderness. 

 

Isaiah 26 is hardly a proof verse for the rapture, in fact the primary descriptions of the rapture are at the  coming of Christ, which is actually a coming. If it is Christ coming, then it's the second coming. The Bible places the rapture at the second coming. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by ARGOSY

[OldCoot]

37 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,  not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will Not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed

 

That's straightforward until Pretrib start messing with the logic. They mustn't be concerned that they missed some big events, they haven't missed anything, the antichrist will be revealed FIRST. 

This passage of 2 Thessalonians 2, the wording is not a "rebellion" or "falling away" as is shown in most translations since the KJV.  The "apostasia" in verse 3 simply means departure.  Without a subject to describe what is being departed from, it stands on it own.  As per....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And Paul emphasized this further later...

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Every English translation prior to the KJV used departure.  Nothing about what is being departed from.  The context of the passage is laid out in verse 1....

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

that is the specific context.  In the general context of both 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians combined, Paul doesn't even discuss a rebellion, falling away, or similar.  In fact, every chapter of 1 Thessalonians concludes with a reference to our being joined with the Lord, especially in....

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV Strong's) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 

Paul didn't really start to address falling away, departure from the faith, etc issues until later in his ministry.  The Thessalonians letters were early in his ministry.

But more on point....

The noun apostasia is only used twice in the NT.  In Acts 21:21, what is being departed from is shown... departing from the Torah (Moses).   

The verbal form of apostasia, "aphistemi" is used 15 times in the NT.  In all but 3 of them, it refers to a spatial, distance departure, not a spiritual departure.  75% of the time it refers to a spatial, physical departure.

Bibles that only use departure...

1560, 1599, 1608 Geneva Bible

1583 Beeza Bible

1576 Breeches Bible

1539 Crammer Bible

1535 Coverdale Bible

1526 Tyndale Bible

1384 Wycliffe bible

And even the Latin Vulgate (approx 400 AD) uses discessio, which is simply a departure with a implication of a spatial, distance departure not a spiritual one.

Many Greek Scholars concur with this analysis.  Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Dr. Ken Johnson, Dr. J. Dwight Pentacost, et al.  Dr. Andy Woods has stated that this passage is a confirmation of the pre-trib position... "game, set, match" (his words).

Also, there are several examples from the early church writers that imply a pre-trib position.  Even Gad the Seer, first mentioned in 2 Samuel, a scroll from him was discovered in the Qumran scrolls.  It has since been translated and published.  He implies a pre-trib removal of the righteous 1000 years before Yeshua came the first time.

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

16 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

The elect is the church. 

Elect in Christ, that is true.  But the Hebrew people are also the elect of the Lord per scripture.  elect does not mean justified. It means set apart.  Messiah is also called the Lord's Elect in the OT.  So then, is Yeshua (Jesus) a Christian?  No.  But is He the Lion of the Tribe of Judah?  Most definitely.

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[OldCoot]

14 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

Isaiah 26?  How long is "a little moment"? 

2 hours? 7 years? I dont think we can force a doctrine from two words that don't hint at a timeframe. 

do you actually read the scriptures posted?

Isaiah 26:20-21 (NKJV) Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

the only thing I stated is that this entering their chambers has to occur before hand.  I also stated that we can debate the merits of a pre-trib, post-trib, or pre-wrath position, but the fact remains, before the indignation (judgements) come upon the earth, the righteous are hidden in their chambers being prepared by Yeshua as we write these things (John 14).  

How long before, look two posts preceding this one.

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[ARGOSY]

24 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

This passage of 2 Thessalonians 2, the wording is not a "rebellion" or "falling away" as is shown in most translations since the KJV.  The "apostasia" in verse 3 simply means departure.  Without a subject to describe what is being departed from, it stands on it own.  As per....

2 Thessalonians 2:3 (1599 Geneva Bible) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

And Paul emphasized this further later...

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 (NKJV) For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Every English translation prior to the KJV used departure.  Nothing about what is being departed from.  The context of the passage is laid out in verse 1....

2 Thessalonians 2:1 (NKJV) Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him,

that is the specific context.  In the general context of both 1 Thessalonians and 2 Thessalonians combined, Paul doesn't even discuss a rebellion, falling away, or similar.  In fact, every chapter of 1 Thessalonians concludes with a reference to our being joined with the Lord, especially in....

1 Thessalonians 1:10 (NKJV Strong's) and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come. 

Paul didn't really start to address falling away, departure from the faith, etc issues until later in his ministry.  The Thessalonians letters were early in his ministry.

But more on point....

The noun apostasia is only used twice in the NT.  In Acts 21:21, what is being departed from is shown... departing from the Torah (Moses).   

The verbal form of apostasia, "aphistemi" is used 15 times in the NT.  In all but 3 of them, it refers to a spatial, distance departure, not a spiritual departure.

Bibles that only use departure...

1560, 1599, 1608 Geneva Bible

1583 Beeza Bible

1576 Breeches Bible

1539 Crammer Bible

1535 Coverdale Bible

1526 Tyndale Bible

1384 Wycliffe bible

And even the Latin Vulgate (approx 400 AD) uses discessio, which is simply a departure with a implication of a spatial, distance departure not a spiritual one.

Many Greek Scholars concur with this analysis.  Dr. Kenneth Wuest, Dr. Ken Johnson, Dr. J. Dwight Pentacost, et al.  Dr. Andy Woods has stated that this passage is a confirmation of the pre-trib position... "game, set, match" (his words).

It means "forsake". Defection. Revolt. Apostasy. Not depart. The gathering (rapture) will not occur until the forsaking occurs, and the antichrist is revealed. 

 

Check a modern Greek dictionary or an ancient one it means apostasy, revolt. 

From Latin apostasia, from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasía, “defection, revolt”)

 

 

And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to FORSAKE ^G646 Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

 

You and Dr Woods may disagree, but that's the meaning of the word, to forsake. To cherry pick one pre-trib expert opinion, isn't "game, set, match".  It's decision "overruled". 

Edited December 12, 2019 by ARGOSY

[OldCoot]

1 hour ago, ARGOSY said:

It means "forsake". Defection. Revolt. Apostasy. Not depart.

Your contention is overruled by the following.  I did say Dr. Woods said "game, set, match" , but I also said many Greek scholars also side with "depart".  Here are a few of them, all recognized and respected leaders in their field of study......

In actuality, the Greek noun apostasia, can in some contexts refer to a physical departure. We know this to be the case since Liddell and Scott, a well-known Greek lexicon, uses the following terms to define apostasia: “rebellion against God, apostasy, departure, disappearance, distance.

The noun form allows for apostasia as a simple departure in the classical period, proved by examples from Liddell and Scott...If one says that this is not important because the meaning is only classical or ancient and thus lost its meaning by the time of the New Testament, then I may turn to the same root meaning of apostasia in the patristic era immediately following the New Testament period, as indicated in the definitions for the noun form in Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon. Although the noun used in the sense of spatial departure is not the normal meaning...during New Testament times, the word is found with this meaning in time periods before and after the New Testament era, and it is likely to have been understood this way at least sometimes

 

Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following...

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13)

Paul Lee Tan stated the following....

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church

Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

 

Kenneth Wuest, a premier Greek scholar of the 20th century and chair of NT Greek at Moody Bible Institute for several decades, added the following contextual support to taking apostasiaas a physical departure:

But then hee apostasia of which Paul is speaking, precedes the revelation of Antichrist in his true identity, and is to katechon that which holds back his revelation (2:6). The hee apostasia, therefore, cannot be either a general apostasy in Christendom which does precede the coming of Antichrist, nor can it be the particular apostasy which is the result of his activities in making himself the alone object of worship. Furthermore, that which holds back his revelation (vs. 3) is vitally connected with hoo katechoon (vs. 7), He who holds back the same event. The latter is, in my opinion, the Holy Spirit and His activities in the Church. All of which means that I am driven to the inescapable conclusion that the hee apostasia (vs. 3) refers to the Rapture of the Church which precedes the Day of the Lord, and holds back the revelation of the Man of Sin who ushers in the world-aspect of that period

 

 

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot

[ARGOSY]

29 minutes ago, OldCoot said:

 

In actuality, the Greek noun apostasia, can in some contexts refer to a physical departure. We know this to be the case since Liddell and Scott, a well-known Greek lexicon, uses the following terms to define apostasia: “rebellion against God, apostasy, departure, disappearance, distance.

The noun form allows for apostasia as a simple departure in the classical period, proved by examples from Liddell and Scott...If one says that this is not important because the meaning is only classical or ancient and thus lost its meaning by the time of the New Testament, then I may turn to the same root meaning of apostasia in the patristic era immediately following the New Testament period, as indicated in the definitions for the noun form in Lampe's Patristic Greek Lexicon. Although the noun used in the sense of spatial departure is not the normal meaning...during New Testament times, the word is found with this meaning in time periods before and after the New Testament era, and it is likely to have been understood this way at least sometimes

 

Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following...

The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men(1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2 Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13)

Paul Lee Tan stated the following....

What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away" , taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church

Whatever Paul is referring to in his reference to "the departure," was something that both the Thessalonian believers and he had discussed in-depth previously. When we examine Paul’s first letter to the Thessalonians, he never mentions the doctrine of apostasy, however, virtually every chapter in that epistle speaks of the rapture (cf. 1:9-10; 2:19; probably 3:13; 4:13-17; 5:1-11). In these passages, Paul has used a variety of Greek terms to describe the rapture. It should not be surprising that he uses another term to reference the rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3.

 

You try to make it sound like the verb and the noun are still have the same meaning as their root word. Sometimes verbs and nouns stay connected to their root words, and sometimes the meaning changes over time. 

Eg the root word for govern, is Latin "gubernator" which means a ships pilot. The meaning has changed. 

Your huge explanations do not detract from the simple fact that whatever the origins of the word "apostasia" means defection/revolt. 

The word is not associated with "departure", but is associated with rebels and rebellion.

 

 from Ancient Greek ἀποστασία (apostasía, “defection, revolt”).

 

Long posts cannot change the simple meaning of a Greek word 2000 years ago, that is still used today. Sure some verb with the same roots and similar spelling may have a different meaning, but it's just a word with same roots and similar spelling, with a different meaning. 

Edited December 12, 2019 by ARGOSY

[OldCoot]

9 minutes ago, ARGOSY said:

You try to make it sound like the verb and the noun are still have the same meaning as their root word. Sometimes verbs and nouns stay connected to their root words, and sometimes the meaning changes over time. 

Well, let's look at daily use of "run".
 

Jane went on a "run" (noun)

See Jane "run" (verb)

Both have equivalent meanings.

The key in real estate is location, location, location.   In scripture hermeneutics, it is context, context, context.   And the context of 2 Thessalonians 2 as well as the general contest of both of Paul's letters to the Thessalonians is our uniting, gathering, etc to the Lord.  Paul does not discuss one time in both letters about a departure from the faith or rebellion.  He does in other letters, but not in the same context as the 2 letters to the Thessalonians.  He tells the Thessalonians to "stand fast", but he does not warn them about spiritual departure in the church.

Edited December 12, 2019 by OldCoot