transmogrified Posted February 22, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Diaste said: This is interesting. Could you expand on this and perhaps provide a link to some reading? Thanks. Blessing to you as well. This is a summary of the timeline...its easy to see on a chart which I have but the max size of a file is 1.95 MB and it won't allow the image to post here because it is too big... Anyway here is a clip from another site where it explains it...I have a chart from Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology that I was able to at least confirm the approximate dates and the timeline described in the article and scripture. Here is the article...Blessings to you- Gary Quote Elijah was a prophet of God in the ninth century B.C. The Bible states that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11). But does this contradict the testimony of John's Gospel, which stated some 900 years after Elijah's time that "no one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man"? (John 3:13). How can we explain this seeming biblical discrepancy? A closer look shows that the two passages can be reconciled easily enough. Careful study shows that three "heavens" are actually discussed in the Bible. One is God's dwelling place—the place of His throne—and the heaven where the resurrected Jesus is today. Speaking of Christ, who is our High Priest, the Bible says, "We have such a High Priest, who is seated at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens" (Hebrews 8:1). Heaven is specifically called God's dwelling place (Deuteronomy 26:15). The apostle Paul calls this heaven the "third heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2)—showing, as noted, that there are two others. It's described as the "third" because, being in the spirit realm, it is beyond the other two, which are in the physical realm. Another heaven discussed in the Bible, second in proximity to us, is what we call outer space. It is the domain of the moon, planets, comets, asteroids, sun and stars. David spoke of this when he reflected on the awesomeness of God's creative handiwork, which he described as "Your heavens, the work of Your fingers, the moon and the stars, which You have ordained" (Psalms 8:3). Many scriptures mention "the stars of heaven" (Genesis 26:4; Deuteronomy 1:10; Deuteronomy 28:62; Isaiah 13:10). Yet another heaven, closest to us in proximity, is the envelope of air that surrounds our planet, consisting of oxygen and other gases. This heaven—earth's atmosphere—is mentioned in such passages as Genesis 7:11-12, which describes the great flood of Noah's day: "The windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was on the earth forty days and forty nights." The Bible also speaks of "the birds of heaven," those that fly overhead (Job 35:11; Jeremiah 16:4). To determine which heaven is meant in a Bible passage, we must carefully consider the context. It was into the lower reaches of this first, closest heaven—the earth's atmosphere—that Elijah was taken. Let's notice the proof. God had earlier told Elijah he was to anoint a man named Elisha as a prophet to succeed him (1 Kings 19:16). Later, as the two men walked together, Elijah said to Elisha, "What may I do for you, before I am taken away from you?" (2 Kings 2:9). This led to a discussion of God's gifts to Elisha that would allow him to fill Elijah's role. "Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (2 Kings 2:11). Elijah was now gone. The former followers and students of Elijah were now to look to Elisha as their new leader. "Now when the sons of the prophets who were from Jericho saw him, they said, 'The spirit of Elijah rests on Elisha'" (2 Kings 2:15). Many readers assume that Elijah at that point was made immortal and taken to the heaven where God resides. This was not the case. The sons of the prophets knew otherwise. They knew the whirlwind had simply removed Elijah to another location on earth. They exclaimed to Elisha: "Look now, there are fifty strong men with your servants. Please let them go and search for your master, lest perhaps the Spirit of the Lord has taken him up and cast him upon some mountain or into some valley" (2 Kings 2:16). The disciples were concerned for Elijah's safety, so they sent out a party of 50 men to search for him. The 50 searched for three days but did not find him (2 Kings 2:17). Another passage proves conclusively that Elijah was not taken up to live in heaven. The Bible records that Elijah wrote a letter to Jehoram, the king of Judah, several years after he was removed in the whirlwind. Notice the sequence of events recorded for us in the Bible. Elijah's last recorded and dated act occurred during the reign of the Israelite king Ahaziah when Elijah told the king he would die for his sins (2 Kings 1:3-17). Ahaziah's reign lasted only about a year, ca. 850 B.C. Elijah's removal and replacement by Elisha is then recorded in the next chapter, 2 Kings 2. The story continues with incidents from Elisha's life, including an encounter with Jehoshaphat, king of Judah (2 Kings 3:11-14). Several years later Jehoram, son of Jehoshaphat, succeeded his father as king of Judah, ca. 845 B.C. (2 Kings 8:16). Jehoram proved to be a wicked king, leading the nation of Judah in rebellion against God's commandments. A few years into Jehoram's reign, and several years after Elijah's removal, Jehoram received a letter from Elijah warning the king of dire consequences because of his sins. This letter is recorded in 2 Chronicles 21:12-15. This letter proves that the prophet was still alive and on earth some years after he was removed by the whirlwind and replaced by Elisha. God had chosen Elisha to succeed Elijah as His prophet, so He bodily removed Elijah to another place, where he continued to live for at least several more years—as his letter to Jehoram demonstrates. The Bible tells us nothing more about Elijah's life following his writing of the letter. But he eventually died, just like the other prophets and righteous men of the Old Testament, who all died in faith, not yet receiving the eternal life God had promised (Hebrews 11:39). Again, a careful reading of the Scriptures shows that Elijah's miraculous removal by a fiery chariot involved transporting him to another location on earth, not to eternal life in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted February 22, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2022 On 2/19/2022 at 9:07 PM, truth7t7 said: 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. Hi Truth7t7- I think the better translation would have been a singular 'heaven' or some have translated it 'sky'...but anyway there is a heaven where the birds fly, and then there is a heaven where he placed the sun, moon and stars.. The reason we wouldn't be able to say the birds of the heavens (plural) is because as far as I have seen birds can only fly about 7 miles up maximum and the moon is some 225,000 miles up. Its not that God does not preserve his word, but sometimes translators make mistakes.. Blessings to you- Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted February 22, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2022 22 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: Both did not see death Hello Dennis1209- The issue can be resolved that Elijah did die as shown in another article that was just posted...Hebrews states that 'all these died in faith, not having received the promise.." but he wrote a letter to Jehoram some 8 years after he was taken up in the whirlwind into heaven...which shows he did eventually die a natural death as everyone else. Enoch is puzzling however....it says he was translated that he should not see death...and that God took him...I don't know where he could have been taken without seeing death seeing that Jesus had said that no man has ascended up to heaven...and that no man has immortality except Jesus... Blessings to you- Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dennis1209 Posted February 22, 2022 Group: Worthy Ministers Followers: 18 Topic Count: 349 Topics Per Day: 0.13 Content Count: 7,518 Content Per Day: 2.69 Reputation: 5,415 Days Won: 1 Joined: 09/27/2016 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2022 26 minutes ago, transmogrified said: Hello Dennis1209- The issue can be resolved that Elijah did die as shown in another article that was just posted...Hebrews states that 'all these died in faith, not having received the promise.." but he wrote a letter to Jehoram some 8 years after he was taken up in the whirlwind into heaven...which shows he did eventually die a natural death as everyone else. Enoch is puzzling however....it says he was translated that he should not see death...and that God took him...I don't know where he could have been taken without seeing death seeing that Jesus had said that no man has ascended up to heaven...and that no man has immortality except Jesus... Blessings to you- Gary Hello Gary, I humbly stand corrected. Over the decades my mind was so ingrained from teachings about Elijah, that he did not see death. It's hard to replace that incorrect long-time theology in my brain from memory. I know better, but I was having a brain freeze remembering something I wrote in my notes some time ago. I'd copy and paste my notes, but it's much too long. To summarize, I went back to my notes on 2 Chronicles 21:12, and B-I-N-G-O, my memory was refreshed. The history and chronology of the kings of Judah and Israel are accurate in the Bible (and 2 Chronicles). To be brief, Elijah wrote that letter to particular that king, several kings removed from when he was taken up by the whirlwind. That can lead to only one logical conclusion, Elijah was still alive but relocated elsewhere. Apparently, it must have been time for Elias to replace Elijah for God's plan and purposes. The above is not without its criticisms, detractors, and alternate theories though. The only excuse I have for that oversight is my age, and my memory is not what it used to be. As quoted in the book of "Dennis, 2nd Opinions", this getting old ain't for sissies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted February 22, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 hours ago, Dennis1209 said: The only excuse I have for that oversight is my age, and my memory is not what it used to be. As quoted in the book of "Dennis, 2nd Opinions", this getting old ain't for sissies. For such a young guy as shown in your picture you sound pretty sharp to me...:) Good to talk with you- Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth7t7 Posted February 22, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 0 Topic Count: 56 Topics Per Day: 0.01 Content Count: 2,749 Content Per Day: 0.60 Reputation: 329 Days Won: 0 Joined: 10/19/2011 Status: Offline Share Posted February 22, 2022 5 hours ago, transmogrified said: Hi Truth7t7- I think the better translation would have been a singular 'heaven' or some have translated it 'sky'...but anyway there is a heaven where the birds fly, and then there is a heaven where he placed the sun, moon and stars.. The reason we wouldn't be able to say the birds of the heavens (plural) is because as far as I have seen birds can only fly about 7 miles up maximum and the moon is some 225,000 miles up. Its not that God does not preserve his word, but sometimes translators make mistakes.. Blessings to you- Gary I think the King James Translators did a fine job, 411 years and going strong! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted February 23, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,644 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,374 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2022 19 hours ago, transmogrified said: This is a summary of the timeline...its easy to see on a chart which I have but the max size of a file is 1.95 MB and it won't allow the image to post here because it is too big... Anyway here is a clip from another site where it explains it...I have a chart from Anstey's Romance of Bible Chronology that I was able to at least confirm the approximate dates and the timeline described in the article and scripture. Here is the article...Blessings to you- Gary interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted February 23, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2022 17 hours ago, truth7t7 said: I think the King James Translators did a fine job, 411 years and going strong! Pre trib advocates have used the mistranslation of Rev. 5:9-10 in the KJV to advance the idea that the church is in heaven prior to the seals being opened. The KJV states the 4 beasts and the 24 elders were singing a song thanking God that they had been redeemed out of every nation kindred and tongue...however it is true from other scriptures that the 4 beasts are angelic beings who are not out of every nation kindred and tongue, nor are angels redeemed by the blood of Jesus. The apparent contradiction has been corrected in most of the newer versions to read "And they sang a new song with these words; 'you are worthy to take the scroll and break its seals and open it. For you were slaughtered, and your blood has ransomed people for God (not 'us') from every tribe and language and people and nation, and you have made them (not 'us') a kingdom of priests to our God, and they (not 'we') shall reign on the earth." I could keep with the error and say the translators are infallible, or I could stay with the original text that did not have this contradiction in it and say God's Word is infallible. The true translation places a person in a much better position in combatting the misunderstanding that the church was already resurrected and in heaven before the seals were opened, as we know all the believers are resurrected on the last day and not before the last day. Blessings to you- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transmogrified Posted February 23, 2022 Group: Senior Member Followers: 2 Topic Count: 4 Topics Per Day: 0.00 Content Count: 795 Content Per Day: 0.50 Reputation: 98 Days Won: 0 Joined: 01/18/2020 Status: Offline Share Posted February 23, 2022 4 hours ago, Diaste said: interesting Yes, it is...it was in the scripture all along, but seemingly many people were told he never died and went up to heaven without dying... It seems to be similar to the story that was put forth about Mt. Sinai being in a certain location...people took camel rides up to the place and it was a tourist attraction...then someone read in Galatians that Paul said Mt. Sinai was in Arabia and not where they had been visiting all those years... Someone said 'a lie will go around the world three times while truth is just getting his boots on...' Blessings to you- Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diaste Posted February 24, 2022 Group: Royal Member Followers: 14 Topic Count: 67 Topics Per Day: 0.02 Content Count: 6,644 Content Per Day: 1.98 Reputation: 2,374 Days Won: 2 Joined: 03/17/2015 Status: Offline Share Posted February 24, 2022 19 hours ago, transmogrified said: Yes, it is...it was in the scripture all along, but seemingly many people were told he never died and went up to heaven without dying... It seems to be similar to the story that was put forth about Mt. Sinai being in a certain location...people took camel rides up to the place and it was a tourist attraction...then someone read in Galatians that Paul said Mt. Sinai was in Arabia and not where they had been visiting all those years... Someone said 'a lie will go around the world three times while truth is just getting his boots on...' Blessings to you- Gary There will come a day when the lies are over and the truth is revealed. Really looking forward to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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