Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[iamlamad]

On 4/24/2022 at 10:59 AM, Diaste said:

And the apostles suffered.

So is Peter wrong here? 

" 17For it is time for judgment to begin with the family of God; and if it begins with us, " 1 Peter 4

Even though the only place scripture records wrath beginning is at the 6th seal and the 7th trump?

True. But when the scripture witnesses wrath at the 6th seal as 'is come' and we see the same language at the 7th trump, 'is come' and both are 'erchomai' which is arrival, both of persons arriving and persons returning, we can't assume this means this arrival happened previous to the events coinciding and in conjunction with that particular wrath. 

Most scholars have to ignore Matt 24:15-21 in which Jesus says GT only comes after the A of D. The A of D only happens at the midpoint ergo, GT is only after the midpoint, not before.

Exactly. That's what Rev 3:10 says.

This is an emotional appeal. I get it's pretty horrific. How many innocent children of God died at the hands of 700 years of Muslim conquest? The Inquisition? The Salem Witch trials murdered innocent Christian girls. There must have been many innocent Jews witness the horrors of the concentration camps. Let's say none of those were truly innocent and the one who were God supernaturally protected, they still witnessed the terrible, horrific acts and God took no one out.

But this day God is still loving and good and kind. So maybe He wasn't then but He is now?

 

I know where it comes from. It's not in the Greek however. The connotations of the rapture are pretrib and hence, to me, it has become the buzzword of a specific doctrine and not an accurate portrayal of the intent of scripture. Popularity doesn't equal truth. I'm not nitpicking. It's a bastardization of a Latin idea and it's simply not in the Koine Greek.

 

I think you are nit picking. Most people believe that at the rapture the dead in Christ rise first, then those who are alive in in Christ are snatched up. Isn't that onw od rhw the basic ideaa of Harpozo? What part of this gives you trouble?

[Diaste]

7 hours ago, iamlamad said:

I think you are nit picking. Most people believe that at the rapture the dead in Christ rise first, then those who are alive in in Christ are snatched up. Isn't that onw od rhw the basic ideaa of Harpozo? What part of this gives you trouble?

You are correct. That's exactly what's written and I trust in that word of truth.

I'm not having trouble and it's not a nit picking thing. Others have trouble with the timing and the label 'rapture'. 

'Rapture' doesn't appear in the Greek NT, 'harpazo' does. I don't care what a Latin translation did with the term and I'm not sure why 'rapture' was popularized into a whole set of circumstances not found in scripture; like timing for example.

Oh well.

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

You are correct. That's exactly what's written and I trust in that word of truth.

I'm not having trouble and it's not a nit picking thing. Others have trouble with the timing and the label 'rapture'. 

'Rapture' doesn't appear in the Greek NT, 'harpazo' does. I don't care what a Latin translation did with the term and I'm not sure why 'rapture' was popularized into a whole set of circumstances not found in scripture; like timing for example.

Oh well.

"Rapture" is just a name for the event. It is the event that is important, not the name for it. The world, for the most part, don't understand our meaning for "the rapture" either, any more than they would, "the harpazo."

[Diaste]

22 hours ago, iamlamad said:

The world, for the most part, don't understand our meaning for "the rapture" either, any more than they would, "the harpazo."

Whose? Pre, Mid, Post, Pre wrath? The world doesn't understand because the Christian community doesn't even understand it's own doctrine.

If only we had a sure guide...

[iamlamad]

3 hours ago, Diaste said:

Whose? Pre, Mid, Post, Pre wrath? The world doesn't understand because the Christian community doesn't even understand it's own doctrine.

If only we had a sure guide...

WE have a sure guide: Paul together with John in Revelation make it plain that Jesus will come before God's wrath begins. The problem with many who believe in pretrib, they don't know where in Revelation's timeline either the rapture is, or the start of the 70th week. They have misidentified both. Most pretribbers then can only guess.

The problem with prewrath is, they started out wrong, imagining the signs in Matthew 24 and at the 6th seal were the same sign happening at the same time.  The truth is, these are two different signs, for two very different events, that will happen over 7 years apart.

The problem with post trib is, they have no scripture to stand on. They imagine, in error, that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture.

John really clinched it by telling us that he saw the just raptured church in heaven as that great crowd too large to number, before he started the 70th week.

[Diaste]

21 hours ago, iamlamad said:

WE have a sure guide: Paul together with John in Revelation make it plain that Jesus will come before God's wrath begins. The problem with many who believe in pretrib, they don't know where in Revelation's timeline either the rapture is, or the start of the 70th week. They have misidentified both. Most pretribbers then can only guess.

The problem with prewrath is, they started out wrong, imagining the signs in Matthew 24 and at the 6th seal were the same sign happening at the same time.  The truth is, these are two different signs, for two very different events, that will happen over 7 years apart.

The problem with post trib is, they have no scripture to stand on. They imagine, in error, that the gathering in Matthew 24 is Paul's rapture.

John really clinched it by telling us that he saw the just raptured church in heaven as that great crowd too large to number, before he started the 70th week.

Yeah. Each one of those positions will say the same thing about your position and whatever I present from scripture. We are all reading the same material and coming to different conclusions. 

If it was economic data and we were in a boardroom trying to understand the underlying causes and what to do about it then there will naturally be diverse opinion and various conclusions.

But this ain't that. It's the God breathed word of prophecy He said He will bring to pass. This isn't up for debate, does not lend to opinion, and isn't open to varied conclusions. But we do it anyway.

So the problem remains. How are you on the correct path when others say the same thing about their correct path? How am I hearing the truth when others claim they are as well and at the same time telling me I'm wrong? 

Am I on the wrong path? Perhaps I am. 

 

[B-B]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Yeah. Each one of those positions will say the same thing about your position and whatever I present from scripture. We are all reading the same material and coming to different conclusions. 

If it was economic data and we were in a boardroom trying to understand the underlying causes and what to do about it then there will naturally be diverse opinion and various conclusions.

But this ain't that. It's the God breathed word of prophecy He said He will bring to pass. This isn't up for debate, does not lend to opinion, and isn't open to varied conclusions. But we do it anyway.

So the problem remains. How are you on the correct path when others say the same thing about their correct path? How am I hearing the truth when others claim they are as well and at the same time telling me I'm wrong? 

Am I on the wrong path? Perhaps I am. 

 

I agree with you. Many folks are fully convinced in their own minds that their Eschatology is correct, and fully convinced in their own minds that others Eschatology is wrong...

Same Scriptures, different interpretations, different conclusions.

 

[iamlamad]

1 hour ago, Diaste said:

Yeah. Each one of those positions will say the same thing about your position and whatever I present from scripture. We are all reading the same material and coming to different conclusions. 

If it was economic data and we were in a boardroom trying to understand the underlying causes and what to do about it then there will naturally be diverse opinion and various conclusions.

But this ain't that. It's the God breathed word of prophecy He said He will bring to pass. This isn't up for debate, does not lend to opinion, and isn't open to varied conclusions. But we do it anyway.

So the problem remains. How are you on the correct path when others say the same thing about their correct path? How am I hearing the truth when others claim they are as well and at the same time telling me I'm wrong? 

Am I on the wrong path? Perhaps I am. 

 

Many people, when forming beliefs on the timing of the rapture, just play "follow the leader." Those in the classic pretrib camp have no excuse for imagining Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. There is pure eisegesis. A beginning reader would know that was John being caught up and it was early in the church age.

There is one thing I believe we both can agree on: when God caused Paul to write of the rapture, and when God caused John to write Revelation, He had ONE INTENT in mind concerning the timing of the rapture of the church: it is going to happen only ONCE and that will be what the intent was behind the pertinent scriptures concerning WHEN.

I may be different than many here on this forum. I had no desire to study end-times and the book of Revelation. God PUSHED me into it. When I finally said I would study Revelation, I said I would, but I would come with an empty slate and if I was to know anything, He would have to teach me. So I read and read without trying to understand anything. I probable read Revelation a hundred times before God began to speak to me about it.

The first thing He taught me was where the 70th week was and that it was clearly marked: midpoint, beginning and end, with the same marker. I discovered that God used 7's to mark the 70th week.

Then He took me on an intense study of chapters 4 & 5 so I would know His intent when He had John wrote those chapters. SO MANY people pull the first seal out of the context of chapters 4 & 5 and so come up with something FAR from what God intended. In short, when God and John were in early church timing, many imagine John was writing of events still future to us today.

One place you could concentrate on is the 5th seal. There you will find a strong hint to rapture timing that many people miss. Meditate on what they were told. Ask God what He meant there when He caused John to write. What did He mean, "killed as they were...?"

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Many people, when forming beliefs on the timing of the rapture, just play "follow the leader." Those in the classic pretrib camp have no excuse for imagining Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. There is pure eisegesis. A beginning reader would know that was John being caught up and it was early in the church age.

I agree. Not about the 'church age', but otherwise...yes.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

There is one thing I believe we both can agree on: when God caused Paul to write of the rapture, and when God caused John to write Revelation, He had ONE INTENT in mind concerning the timing of the rapture of the church: it is going to happen only ONCE and that will be what the intent was behind the pertinent scriptures concerning WHEN.

Again, I agree. This is fun!

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

I may be different than many here on this forum. I had no desire to study end-times and the book of Revelation. God PUSHED me into it. When I finally said I would study Revelation, I said I would, but I would come with an empty slate and if I was to know anything, He would have to teach me. So I read and read without trying to understand anything. I probable read Revelation a hundred times before God began to speak to me about it.

Interesting.

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

The first thing He taught me was where the 70th week was and that it was clearly marked: midpoint, beginning and end, with the same marker. I discovered that God used 7's to mark the 70th week.

Which marker, specifically? I'll need chapter and verse to look at it.

 

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

Then He took me on an intense study of chapters 4 & 5 so I would know His intent when He had John wrote those chapters. SO MANY people pull the first seal out of the context of chapters 4 & 5 and so come up with something FAR from what God intended. In short, when God and John were in early church timing, many imagine John was writing of events still future to us today.

Preterist tendencies? What will you say when the two witnesses appear in Jerusalem?

1 hour ago, iamlamad said:

One place you could concentrate on is the 5th seal. There you will find a strong hint to rapture timing that many people miss. Meditate on what they were told.

Ask God what He meant there when He caused John to write. What did He mean, "killed as they were...?"

I can only go so far here and no further. It's either general martyrdom or the manner of death. I'm going with the latter for a few reasons.

In looking at 20 some translations they are vague as to exactly what is meant. Generally it's, " were killed just as they had been." The NLT is, " who were to be martyred" It's obvious we are seeing martyrdom here. From the first mention it's clear: "And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld"

So it's not general martyrdom in my mind. Martyrdom is dying for a belief, the manner of death isn't part of that. No one has to die a specific death to become a martyr, they just have to die upholding their belief. So why say, "were killed just as they had been"? Seem redundant, yes?

I hold the Word to be precise in relating all concepts. What is said is said specifically and precisely with a purpose for every word, especially so any prophetic utterance. It sticks out "were killed just as they had been" was said at all since the reason for the martyrdom and what was being upheld by the martyrs was made clear in v 9; they died for Jesus. 

"Killed like they were" then is manner of death, not the death of the martyr.

 

[Diaste]

3 hours ago, B-B said:

I agree with you. Many folks are fully convinced in their own minds that their Eschatology is correct, and fully convinced in their own minds that others Eschatology is wrong...

Same Scriptures, different interpretations, different conclusions.

 

It's a problem. It's why I stick with "Read and repeat." Kinda like university.