Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Montana Marv]

12 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings Montana

The tares are evidently present in your quotation.  there is a teaching of Jesus that the tares are to be taken out first.  You do know that the wheat and the tares grow together until the end.  The harvest begins with the tares being gathered and burned.  Is this hard to understand?

Looking forward to being left behind.

Rev 3:10,11 - Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from (Escape) the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.  I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so no one will take your crown.  Rev 4:4 - Surrounding the throne were 24 other thrones, and seated on them were 24 elders ( In my opinion; 12 of the Jews and 12 of the Gentiles - which are of the Bride of Christ).  They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.  And this before the Seals are even opened.

Gen 7:7 - And Noah and his sons and his wife and his sons wives entered the Ark to escape the waters of the flood. 

Gen 19:23.24 - By the time Lot reached Zoar (to escape S & G), the sun had risen over the Land.  Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah - from the Lord out of the heavens.

All types of the Righteous being removed before destruction comes.  And you want to be left behind.

The tares are taken out first when Satan and his horde surround Jerusalem.  They are all consumed.  And go directly to the GWT Judgment, then to the Lake of Fire.  Then the rest of the Righteous who reside with Christ in Jerusalem receive their immortal Bodies.  All Post 1000 years.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[Montana Marv]

On 4/14/2023 at 1:50 PM, seeking the lost said:

Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.  This is followed by the instructions in Rev. 9, 

Upon Salvation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, by his indwelling.  We do not need to have a seal put on our foreheads.  Can you give examples where any believers over the past 2000 years have received this seal on their foreheads.

In Christ

Montana Marv

[ChristB4us]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

They lose eternal reward.

1 Cor 9:27 isn't about reprobates.

No.  There are no scenarios in Scripture about either a pretrib rapture, or any believer missing out on the resurrection.

Sure.  Loss of eternal reward.

1 Corinthians 9:27 at this link has it as reproved in 1599 Geneva version, rejected in the Darby Translation & World English version, and declared unfit and ordered to stand aside in the Living Bible version.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1 Corinthians 9%3A27&version=KJV,GNV,WEB,DARBY,TLB

Not sure how reprobate cannot be a synonym for the consequence there, but all of those translations along with those that have disqualified, paints a different picture than just not getting the crown.  They are not being received.

Revelation 2:8-10 exhorts that good church at Smyrna to be faithful unto death and they shall receive the crown of life hence raptured.

Revelation 2:18-25 rebukes that bad church at Thyatira to repent or be cast into the bed of the great tribulation hence the consequence for not getting that crown.

There is a loss of eternal rewards of being that vessel unto honor in His House, vessels of gold and silver, but being damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House, as vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House and therefore no loss of salvation.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Edited April 16, 2023 by ChristB4us

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

1 Corinthians 9:27 at this link has it as reproved in 1599 Geneva version, rejected in the Darby Translation & World English version, and declared unfit and ordered to stand aside in the Living Bible version.

And all those words refer to loss of eternal reward.  Do you think it means loss of salvation?  I still don't know where you stand.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Not sure how reprobate cannot be a synonym for the consequence there, but all of those translations along with those that have disqualified, paints a different picture than just not getting the crown.  They are not being received.

Again, "not being received" refers to not receiving any eternal reward.

Those who think that "just getting a crown" is what "eternal reward" refers are quite misled.  The Bible speaks of many different kinds of reward.  Ruling over cities, etc.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Revelation 2:8-10 exhorts that good church at Smyrna to be faithful unto death and they shall receive the crown of life hence raptured.

Not "hence raptured".  No mention of rapture here.  This crown is specific to faithfulness.  Research all the kinds of eternal reward there is.

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

Revelation 2:18-25 rebukes that bad church at Thyatira to repent or be cast into the bed of the great tribulation hence the consequence for not getting that crown.

The consequence IS "not getting that crown".

2 hours ago, ChristB4us said:

There is a loss of eternal rewards of being that vessel unto honor in His House, vessels of gold and silver, but being damned as vessels unto dishonor in His House, as vessels of wood & earth, but still in His House and therefore no loss of salvation.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.

21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

How do these verses relate to eternal reward?  It is speaking of the believer's life on earth.

[ChristB4us]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

And all those words refer to loss of eternal reward.  Do you think it means loss of salvation?  I still don't know where you stand.

No loss of salvation, but loss of being received as firstfruits of the resurrection of being that vessel unto honor in His House, the vessels of gold and silver.  Rejected, disqualified, and to stand aside as a castaway speaks of being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event when the Bridegroom judges His House first.

This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from as being left behind to die, but their spirits will be with the Lord in Heaven to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor in his House, vessels of wood & earth.

This is why even former believers are called to repent and not just carnal believers living in unrepentant sins so they too may be received by Him as vessels unto honor.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

If you consider the purpose of excommunication to be done by the church, then God will do the same at the pre great tribulation rapture event for why he is warning believers to be ready or else. 

Any one in unrepentant iniquity will be excommunicated as in cut off, disqualified, rejected, and thus castaways when the Bridegroom comes as being handed over to the beast that will wage war on the left behind saints & after the rapture event, new believers in Christ & the 144,000 witnesses from Jewish background of the 12 tribes..

1 Corinthians 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

The Marriage Supper to be held in Heaven will be done in like manner for how the church is to hold fellowship & communion within the assembly.

1 Corinthians 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators: 10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world. 11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

Why else is He telling believers to be ready or else?  Really think the church has been excommunicating every unrepentant believer living in sin that the Lord will not have to do it when He comes as the Bridegroom?  Maybe then you will see why He is telling believers to be ready or else, to avoid being disqualified to attend.

 

[FreeGrace]

26 minutes ago, ChristB4us said:

No loss of salvation, but loss of being received as firstfruits of the resurrection of being that vessel unto honor in His House, the vessels of gold and silver.  Rejected, disqualified, and to stand aside as a castaway speaks of being left behind at the pre great tribulation rapture event when the Bridegroom judges His House first.

The very idea of any believer missing THE ONLY resurrection of all believers is simply preposterous.  

So, if such believers would miss this only resurrection, do they ever get their resurrection body?

There is no Scriptural evidence for such a thing.  Which is why there hasn't been any  provided.  

[ChristB4us]

15 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

The very idea of any believer missing THE ONLY resurrection of all believers is simply preposterous.  

So, if such believers would miss this only resurrection, do they ever get their resurrection body?

There is no Scriptural evidence for such a thing.  Which is why there hasn't been any  provided.  

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

What makes a believer a vessel unto honor?  By departing from iniquity.

What makes a believer a vessel unto dishonor?  By not departing from iniquity.

What are the vessels unto honor?  Vessels of gold & silver.

What are the vessels unto dishonor?  Vessels of wood & earth.

Are both vessels in His House?  Yes.

But what makes a vessel unto dishonor other than to be disqualified & rejected?

Excommunication will happen when the bridegroom comes, like it or not.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

You do not have to verbally deny Him for Him to deny you.  Saved believers can wind up denying Him by their works whether they realize this or not. That is why He is denying them for being workers of iniquity and thus not being disqualified.

Luke 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able. 25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are: 26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.

27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.

28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

See the sit down in the kingdom of God with the resurrected O.T. saints & those N.T. saints living and dead that are abiding in Him?  The vessels unto honor in His House while those disqualified to attend has to wait for their resurrection after the great tribulation as vessels unto dishonor, vessels of wood and earth.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by ChristB4us

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

None of these verses teach that any believer will miss THE resurrection.  In fact, 1 Cor 15:23 PROVES that ALL believers (those who belong to Him) will be resurrected "when He comes" back at the 2nd Advent.

1 hour ago, ChristB4us said:

Excommunication will happen when the bridegroom comes, like it or not.

There is no excommunication with believers.  "Those who belong to Him" will be resurrected "when He comes" and no erroneous teaching will change that.

1 Cor 15:23

btw, my question about when believers who miss the resurrection will finally receive their resurrection bodies, hasn't been answered.

Is there any Scripture that supports the claim that certain believers will miss the resurrection, and receive theirs later?  Please share.

If not, there is a huge hole in that theory.

[DeighAnn]

16 hours ago, Montana Marv said:

Upon Salvation we are sealed with the Holy Spirit, by his indwelling.  We do not need to have a seal put on our foreheads.  Can you give examples where any believers over the past 2000 years have received this seal on their foreheads.

In Christ

Montana Marv

10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,

which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
 

13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me,

AND THEIR FEAR TOWARD ME IS TAUGHT BY THE PRECEPT OF MEN
 

14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

17Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Edited April 16, 2023 by DeighAnn

[Montana Marv]

26 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed,

which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned.
 

13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me,

AND THEIR FEAR TOWARD ME IS TAUGHT BY THE PRECEPT OF MEN
 

14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid.

15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?

16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?

17Is it not yet a very little while, and Lebanon shall be turned into a fruitful field, and the fruitful field shall be esteemed as a forest?

18And in that day shall the deaf hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity, and out of darkness.

19The meek also shall increase their joy in the LORD, and the poor among men shall rejoice in the Holy One of Israel.

Nothing you posted has anything to do with my post. Not a very good rebuttal. 

In Christ 

Montana Marv