Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

Here ye, hear ye all pre trib people who think God is just going to bring down the saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation.. This is not what Isaiah or Zech said.. zech said all the saints would come down and Isaiah said the ones who are SANCTIFIED will come down with him not the the saints from Pentecost to before the tribulation… 

you can look up numerous scriptures showing God sanctified people for his work in the Old Testament here is just one: 

Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I amthe LORD that doth sanctify ^H6942 you.

here is the verse in Isaiah showing THESE SANTIFIED SAINTS ARE SHOWN TO BE IN HEAVEN AND THESE, along with the sanctified saints in the New Testament will be coming down with Jesus.. they were all UP TGERE and they are all going to come DOWN HERE

I have commanded my sanctified ones, I have also called my mighty ones for mine anger, even them that rejoice in my highness.

4 The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.

5 They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, FreeGrace said:

OK, DA, you know the drill.  Where is "it written"?  That's the only way to believe what people claim.  Just like the Bereans.

Let's see all these "lots of Scripture".

I wonder will just ONE be enough?  Or two?  10?   There will be no amount that will be enough, as it doesn't FIT with what you believe...BUT in the interest of GODS TRUTH..

IT'S GONNA BE L-E-N-G-T-H-Y

1. Jesus from the beginning of His ministry told us He would be doing that very thing.

16And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

17And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because He hath anointed Me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20And He closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21And He began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

2. He spoke of those under the New Covenant being raised up and following Him to be where was and HE said at that time He would receive them unto HIMSELF  NOT like when He sends out the angels to gather.

The NOT is a correction from the original post.

34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

36Simon Peter said unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered him, Whither I go, thou canst not follow me now; but thou shalt follow me afterwards.

37Peter said unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee now? I will lay down my life for thy sake.

38Jesus answered him, Wilt thou lay down thy life for my sake? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.

1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

3.  He spoke of it again when speaking to Martha before Lazarus was resurrected.

23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

OLD COVENANT ABOUT TO HAVE ITS LAST DAY....

24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: He that believeth in Me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

(THAT WOULD BE THOSE WHO WERE ASLEEP AT THAT TIME, IN THE GRAVE, PAYING THE PENALTY OF DEATH UNDER THE LAW, THE PLACE HE WILL BE THE FIRST TO BE RESURRECTED FROM)

NEW COVENANT ABOUT TO HAVE ITS' FIRST DAY

26And whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?

4.  We see those who slept being led up to heaven when He ascended. We see their graves opened. We know they were not raised up in flesh and blood bodies. We know after Christ made the whole lump holy and the first fruits of God were raised and ever since it has been every man in his own order. 

4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

50Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

(fyi  THOSE IN THE GRAVES WERE WASHED CLEAN UNDER THE NEW COVENANT, UNLIKE THE DEAD WHO GO INTO THE GRAVES NOW BECAUSE THEY DON'T COME TO FAITH)


12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:

14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.

16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

16For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.



5. We know that it will go that way until He returns when those who are His, those who have not taken the mark of the beast will be changed and joined to those in the clouds who returned with Him. 


23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

(EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER HAS TO BE LISTED FIRST,
as God is the God of the living and not the dead as MOSES showed at the bush,
so the LIVING never went to hell, but were raised up from the flesh and blood body,
then CHRIST the firstfruit to be raised from having descend into hell was the first to be raised up FROM THE PLACE OF THE DEAD aka HELL,
continuing on is EVERY saved MAN in his own order, NOW UNDER GRACE
and then at the 2nd Advent, those who are HIS AT HIS COMING the alive and remaining)

 

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump

6.   We know we are raised up and will be like Him when we will see Him and He was raised up in body.

1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

2Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

5319. phaneroó ►
Strong's Concordance
phaneroó: to make visible, make clear
Original Word: φανερόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: phaneroó
Phonetic Spelling: (fan-er-o'-o)
Definition: to make visible, make clear
Usage: I make clear (visible, manifest), make known.
HELPS Word-studies
5319 phaneróō (from 5457 /phṓs, "light") – properly, illumine, make manifest (visible); (figuratively) make plain, in open view; to become apparent ("graspable").

5319 /phaneróō ("become manifest") in 1 Jn 3:2

1 Jn 3:2: "Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that if (Gk ean) He becomes manifest (5319 /phaneróō), we will be like Him, because (hoti) we will see Him just as (Gk kathōs) He is



 

 

 

[DeighAnn]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

what I was meaning that there is no categorizing of these certain group of saints get resurrected at one time and another group of saints being resurrected at another time.. in other words when it states the tribulation saints were resurrected it does not mean there were no other saints resurrected at that same time, rather that particular scripture is only stating those that were killed during the tribulation were resurrected … again Paul fixed ANY misunderstanding by saying WE SHALL ALL BE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP.. meaning all the OT and NT saints will be changed at the same time…

BUT THAT isn't what is written, PAUL is addressing THE ALIVE AND REMAINING being changed

and THE DEAD that are being raised up ARE mortal, lifeless, in operational in the ways of God, non believers, not saved, those who didn't know the way, the dead who were spiritually dead when they were buried ARE WHO ARE RAISED, those who didn't follow Him.  

NONE OF THE LIVING, NONE OF THE NEVER DIE

NO CORPSES, NO BODIES OF THE SAVED SOULS are raised up when HE RETURNS.  

The only ONES who are HIS AT HIS COMING  either in the earth or on the earth
 

are those who have endured to the end have over come, have remained faithful.  


HERE IS WHO IS RAISED UP OUT FROM HELL, THE GRAVE, WHEN CHRIST RETURNS

3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead body, a corpse.
HELPS Word-studies
3498 nekrós (an adjective, derived from nekys, "a corpse, a dead body") – dead; literally, "what lacks life"; dead; (figuratively) not able to respond to impulses, or perform functions ("unable, ineffective, dead, powerless," L & N, 1, 74.28); unresponsive to life-giving influences (opportunities); inoperative to the things of God.

3498 /nekrós ("corpse-like") is used as a noun in certain contexts ("the dead"), especially when accompanied by the Greek definite article. The phrase, ek nekron ("from the dead"), lacks the Greek article to give the sense "from what is of death."


If it were THE CHURCH THAT WAS BEING 'RAISED UP'

(it would be a 2nd raising up already having been raised up once, already having stood before the judgment seat of Christ, already having received the body not made with hands in the heavens, already having been raised in glory and power and IN INCORRUPTION)


then it would be WRITTEN SOMETHING LIKE

THE NEVER DIE, THE LIVING, THE IMMORTALS  

some sort of FEMININE NOUN, anything but the word for DEAD




but no matter what, 

it isn't BODIES that are spoken of as what is being raised up

it isn't WRITTEN as a noun

but an adjective.  


 

 

Edited September 12, 2023 by DeighAnn

[transmogrified]

22 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

and THE DEAD that are being raised up ARE mortal, lifeless, in operational in the ways of God, non believers, not saved, those who didn't know the way, the dead who were spiritually dead when they were buried ARE WHO ARE RAISED, those who didn't follow Him.  

No they are the dead in Christ not dead in sin

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

That's speaking of spiritual wickedness in high places (high level fallen angels) coming down to earth... it's not actual stars falling onto the earth as that would destroy the earth altogether

This is why it says the powers of the heavens shall be shaken

I'm glad you understand this as it further proves that the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 occurs at the 6th seal and not at the end of wrath.

[The Light]

4 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

I'm not dancing around anything.

I'm simply saying the rapture is not going to happen until after the ant-christ is revealed to the world... something most pre-tribbers deny as they oppose what the Lord said in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 thru His Apostle.

Of course the Lord's coming together His faith until Himself is close... and it will happen after the ant-christ is revealed to the world

The second rapture will take place after antichrist is revealed.

The rapture of the Church will occur when you think not.

[FreeGrace]

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The two prophets are NT saints that were killed and the spirit of life from God entered them… they heard a voice saying come up hither and they ASCENDED UP TO HEAVEN IN A CLOUD…and their enemies beheld them..

Since Heb 9:27 says that it is appointed once for man to die, and there are 2 OT saints that didn't die physically; Enoch and Elijah.  I believe they will be the 2W, and they will have their appointed death at the end of their ministry. Henry Morris does an excellent job of explaining why they are the most eligible men to be the 2W in his book "Revelation Record".  He's pre-trib, which I don't agree, but much of his commentary is very good.  And their being called up to heaven can't be in a resurrection body, because all saints receive theirs "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23.

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

when he said the dead in Christ rise first it means they are taken to heaven so they can come DOWN from heaven with Jesus..

It's referring to their physical bodies that are in the ground.  The souls of the dead saints that have been in heaven since Jesus took them there after His resurrection, plus all the NT saints that have been in heaven since their death, all will return with Jesus at the Second Advent.  Rev 19

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The armies that FOLLOWED Jesus were the saints and angels.. for them to FOLLOW Jesus down it means they are BEHIND him and he goes before them.. they have to be UP THERE TO COME DOWN.. this is the whole problem with pre trib- the only way the dead in Christ GET UP THERE IS THAT THEY RISE FIRST… but in order for the living to MEET them the dead have to be descending  down .. so the dead come down from above meaning that is where they were while the living go up from the earth meaning that is where they were, and both MEET IN THE CLOUDS

Right.  When Jesus comes back to earth, heaven will be emptied of all the souls that are there.

2 hours ago, transmogrified said:

How did all those people shown to be IN HEAVEN get there and why would the 2 prophets have to ASCEND up there to be IN HEAVEN meaning THEY WERE NOT THERE BEFORE THEY GOT THERE

In the OT, the souls of all saints went to Paradise, which is in a compartment in Hades.  Where Jesus went after His death to preach to the spirits in prison.  He took all of them to heaven after the resurrection.  The souls of all NT saints go directly to heaven at death.  That's how all the saved get to heaven.  It is their souls who go to heaven, and their bodies stay in the ground, until the resurrection.

[NConly]

5 hours ago, The Light said:

The resurrection of all believers is NEVER described as a "harvest", so all mention of harvest in relation to the singular resurrection of believers is illogical.  It's made up.

When I read John 4:35 Im thinking there was talk of a harvest.

[transmogrified]

2 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

And their being called up to heaven can't be in a resurrection body, because all saints receive theirs "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23.

They rose up at the 7th trumpet .. that was the time all the dead in Christ rose .. rev 11 - “ and they heard a great voice from heaven saying come up hither.. that same hour there was a great earthquake .. the phrase the second word is past the third comes quickly .. AND THE SEVENTH ANGEL SOUNDED… It is absolute fact ALL WILL BE RESURRECTED AT THE LAST TRUMPET .. These two prophets are no exception.. they are mortal men who God empowered to do certain things and they died because they were just mortals like everyone else and then God raised them from the dead … they died in Christ and were resurrected and ascended up to heaven in a cloud..This was the voice of the archangel and the trump of God and that very day they were resurrected is the same day Jesus comes with all his saints

[FreeGrace]

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

FreeGrace, been a long time since I commented on this forum, but nevertheless, being somewhat dismissive is expected but I know it can be frustrating at times when it appears obvious but others just aren't getting it. So, shalom, let us both know that neither of us has absolute knowledge.

Ain't that the truth!!

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

FreeGrace said: 

No, it describes a literal practice of how to get rid of mildew.  However, some will come up with a a lot of various figurative pictures of what it describes.

Yet, there is nothing about a trip to heaven.  Nor a resurrection.

Please, do not take me as being sarcastic here but I have no choice but to throw in a rhetorical question here. To paraphrase Paul's 1 Corinthians 9:9, is God actually concerned about the mildew in a house or is He telling this for our sake?

I noticed which OT book the instructions were written in.  Leviticus.  The book of the LAW.  Lots of instructions for everyday living.  It's all literal.  Others may disagree.

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

If we are going to dismiss the symbols and signs, then communion is nothing more than just eating bread and drinking wine and water baptism is nothing more that having a cool off, and Abraham and Isaac has no bearing on the Father and Christ.

Me thinks you are going to the extreme.  The Bible is clear about what baptism represents.  And I am not dismissing anything.  Leviticus is literal and about everyday life and worship.  Communion and baptism are commands that represent our union with Christ and the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord.

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

And do not get me started on the Temple. No, wait, even the Temple confirms that the fifth item (bowl of incense) and fifth festival (Trumpets) in chronological order is regarding a rising up to God, a beautiful aroma to God, a joyful noise. So why would God give an elaborate law for mold, seemingly illogical as well, if He could have just said rip out the mold and fix it yourselves?

The people needed to be taught how to live.  Remember, they had been slaved for over 400 years.

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

No, I did not. Same as I did not remove 2 Thessalonians 2:3. I see three separate resurrections still to come:

1) On the Day of Trumpets, pre-Tribulation, before the 1000 years of peace. All those who died after Christ's resurrection and those alive now. Christ does not return this day but rather calls believers away from the world, suddenly zapped away into the heavens. It is this event that causes the 10 nations of the Balkans to rise to power, and from it the Antichrist.

2) Upon Christ's physical return to earth on the Day of Atonement, all those who were beheaded during the Tribulation are resurrected. It does not mention it but I assume there will be some believers who die by other means (elderly, car crash, etc.) and will be resurrected as well, but those alive upon His return will not be changed, rather they go on to repopulate the earth for the Millennial Sabbath and will go keep the Feast of Tabernacles every year (Zechariah 14:16-21). They will be gathered to Him but not changed.

3) And assumed at the very end of the seventh millennium, all the believers who died during the 1000 years of peace. And people who did not go to war against Jerusalem, but survived to the end will be changed (like a second Rapture).

Well, that's 2 more than the Bible describes.  How can you see 3 when 1 Cor 15:23 clearly notes ONE.  And the 3 verses that indicate a resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved speak of resurrection in the singular.  Dan 12:2, John 5:29 and Acts 24:15.  In fact, Jesus always spoke of resurrection in the singular.

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

In regards to 1 Corinthians 15:23 I see both the pre-Tribulation Rapture and Second Coming as being related to Christ's coming, the events are fulfilled apart by a few years but both form part of His coming.

Yes, you are "seeing" things.  Christ returns to earth just once more, which is at the Second Advent.  Why do you think it's been called the "Second Advent"?  He comes to earth twice.  Heb 9:28 even notes that.

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

In regards to 2 Thessalonians 2 it is a similar thing, Paul is referring to the Day of YHWH, Yeshua's actual return to put away the Antichrist. Paul says only then will all tribulations stop, plus Paul was telling them that their tribulations are not the tribulations of the Tribulation since the Antichrist had not been revealed yet. They were clearly told by someone Christ had fully returned but Paul is not being specific about the Day or Trumpets and Day of Atonement, rather he is simply saying to not be fooled into believing the Day of YHWH has already come because it obviously had not.

There are no verses about multiple resurrections, or trips to heaven by resurrected believers.

1 hour ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

Matthew 24 describes two separate events in regards to being taken, and it references them in reverse order. It first talks about the Son of Man being revealed in the heavens, fully and in glory. Christ mentions in relation to this day, the Day of YHWH, that He takes away the wicked while at the same time gathering His chosen people. Then He goes on to talk about the Fig Tree and this passage use a popular Jewish idiomatic expression to refer to the Day of Trumpets. The phrase "nobody knows the day nor hour" is referring to the Day of Trumpets, not the Day of Atonement (a.k.a. The Day of YHWH). Two different events commemorated on two different calendar days. Christians would know this if they knew the Torah and Jewish culture and traditions, but they end up conflating ideas due to their lack of understanding the Torah. The festivals (being prophetic events fulfilled by Christ) are relevant to all believers, but Christians are quick to dismiss them as being Jewish and not binding to Gentiles (Zechariah 14 says the opposite), not realising they actually tell us the exact day of their fulfilments, and through other prophecies God has told us the exact year they will be fulfilled. It is how Christ knew the day He would be crucified and when He would be raised to life.

I do not see 2 separate events in Matt 24:29ff.  I see the Second Advent and the "gathering" of the "elect", which would be all believers.