Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[transmogrified]

13 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

In 1 Cor 15 the dead and alive are changed in the twinkling of an eye. 1 Thes 4 and 1 Cor 15 cannot be the same event.

they are not two events... 1 Thess. 4... is describing the event of the second coming..1 Cor. 15 is defining what the resurrection of the dead is..no contradiction between the definition and the event...the resurrection of the dead is what is being dealt with...not the ascension up to heaven...

[The Light]

9 hours ago, MattLovesCoffee said:

Congrats on a 20 year old post, and a few months. Wow, this forum is something else.

Nevertheless, Leviticus 14:33-53! The Torah describes a pre-Tribulation Rapture in a wonderful word picture. Marxism (the religion of man, leftism, socialism, humanism, etc) is the reddish mold. Greenish mold is Islam. The two plagues in the world today. Notice the priest comes to call people out of the house first, then he shuts the house for 7 days. Anybody found in the house during the 7 days must wash their clothes. The priest returns after 7 days to rip out the infected stones and casts them out to an unclean place. There are still two churches, those who are kept from the hour of trial (us faithful now), then those who must buy clean linen garments (who become believers during the Tribulation). The second group is not called to leave the house because either they will survive to the end of the Tribulation or will be beheaded for rejecting the AC.

The next possible date for the Rapture is this come Friday into Saturday, on the first day of the seventh month. If not this week then we wait another year until the next Day of Trumpets.

The righteous person perishes, and nobody gives it a thought. Godly men are taken away, and no one understands that the righteous person is taken away from the evil yet to come. Yes, those who live uprightly will have peace as they rest on their couches.
Yesha 'yahu (Isa) 57:1‭-‬2 CJB

Very interesting. I am going to study this. Thanks.

As to the rapture being on the Feast of Trumpets, I don't think that is likely at all. The dead in Christ will likely be raptured on Passover, the spring barley harvest. The Church, those that are alive and remain, will likely be raptured at the end of the Pentecost Feast of New Wine, possibly on Tu B'Av.  The Feast of Trumpets will likely be for the rapture of the Jews which will occur just before the wrath of God at the 6th seal. The 144,000 are first fruits of this harvest. Only those in the nation of Israel, those that flee to a place of protection and unbelievers will be on earth during the wrath of God. Wrath lasts one year before the armies leave heaven for Armageddon.

[The Light]

9 hours ago, FreeGrace said:

"TRIBULATION AND WRATH ARE NOT THE SAME THING."

 

Can you explain with Scripture why they aren't?  The word "wrath" means anger, and that's what we see throughout the Tribulation; God pouring out His wrath on humanity.  I've already explained this?  Can you refute what I've said?

And I've explained this as well.  Matt 24:29 SAYS "immediately AFTER the tribulation", so again, this isn't arguable.  Have you just missed these clear verses, or have you just dismissed them?

 

 

I have already explained using scripture why we know that the tribulation and wrath are not the same thing. And yet you can't see it. It's like talking to a Jew and telling him about the Messiah and no matter how clear it is, they just can't see. They are blinded. This seems like the same situation. 

How can you not put 1+1 together and get 2?

YOU AREN'T EVEN READING WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS. 

As soon as you read IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION your mind jumps to IMMEDIATELY AFTER WRATH. 

Stop doing that. Read what the scripture says not what you think it says.

You think the coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 happens at the end of wrath. IT DOESN'T.

READ Matthew 24:29-30 

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

What did we learn? We should learn that immediately after the tribulation, there are cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars. Then we see Jesus comes.

Now let's look at the 6th seal.

Revelation 6

2 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

What did we learn? We should learn that when the 6th seal is opened there are cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

From Revelation 6 and Matthew 24 we should be able to conclude that there are cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars in both Rev 6 and Matthew 24. That gives you a time stamp. The things that are happening in Matthew 24 are happening in the 6th seal because we are given a time stamp with the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

So we should be able to conclude that when the 6th seal is opened, it is IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION. We should be able to conclude that when the 6th seal is opened, JESUS RETURNS.

From this verse and also the fact that the 7th seal is not opened we should be able to conclude that WRATH HAS NOT BEGUN.

Revelation 6

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

 

In summary. The coming of Jesus in Matthew 24 is the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal as marked by the signs of the sun, moon and stars.

This is the second coming and cannot be the second advent as wrath has not begun.

I don't know how to make it any clearer than that.

[transmogrified]

48 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

What is written is THE dead ARE RAISED

The dead will be raised at the second coming...not before

 

8 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

When Christ returns, there will be those who have the mark of the beast, and those who have endured to the end.  

And there will be all those in the graves that have to come forth...both righteous and wicked...the reason they are still sleeping in the dust of the earth and have to come forth out of their graves is because they are dead and have not previously been resurrected...in Dan. 12:2 they are all still sleeping in the dust of the earth...and what happens?  BOTH GROUPS AWAKE AND GET THEIR REWARDS...they didn't already have their rewards and they were not awake until they heard the voice of the Son of God to come forth out of their graves.

And what does it say 'AT THAT TIME' those that sleep shall awake and what else happens AT THAT TIME? It is apparent the time referred to in Daniel is at the second coming when it says 'but he (the man of sin) shall come to his end and none shall help him...which is when Jesus destroys him by the brightness of his coming and the beast is taken and cast into the lake of fire...so when it says AT THAT TIME, it can be said 'AT THE SECOND COMING' the dead will rise and both groups will be rewarded...the scriptures in Revelation clarify with more detail that 'his reward is with him and he will reward every man according as his deeds shall be...'

   But also more detail in Rev. 11 when it says 'now is the time of the dead, that they should be judged and that God will give rewards to them that fear him, the saints and his servants the prophets...it must be acknowledged that THIS IS THE TIME THE SAINTS RECEIVE THEIR REWARDS...NOT BEFORE!!!

This is 'THAT DAY' that Paul was referring to when he said God would give a crown of life to all those who love his appearing...YOU CANNOT DENY THAT THE TIME OF THE DEAD INCLUDES THE RIGHTEOUS DEAD FOR THIS  IS THE DAY OF JUDGMENT... There was no day of judgment before this...this is the TIME OF THE DEAD THAT THEY SHOULD BE JUDGED

This is where it is spelled out in black and white that the dead will be judged and the righteous will be rewarded...if they are rewarded here that means there was no day of judgment before this and they had received no rewards until that time...this is OT saints, this is NT saints, this is ALL THE SAINTS BEING JUDGED...you cannot deny this...his servants the prophets includes OT prophets...them that fear his name both small and great includes every saint, and if there is any question it says 'his saints...' and who might that be? His saints, his holy ones, those who served him in whatever time period.

33 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The DEAD IN CHRIST as in baptized unto His death made new creatures HAVE ALREADY RISEN

This is equally not true...of course we are resurrected spiritually, that is shown in John 5 that the time is now that they that are dead shall hear his voice and they that hear shall live...but the next part in John 5:28-29  is not about a spiritual resurrection but pertaining to those who are in the graves and it distinctly spelled out as something that IS NOT NOW but is in the future...one it is 'the hour is coming AND NOW IS,' pertaining to the spiritual resurrection, but the physical resurrection is 'FOR THE HOUR IS COMING..' i.e. it is NOT NOW but it will come IN THE FUTURE..i.e. the second coming...not now but at the 7th trumpet, not now but at the end of this age.

  

39 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

as Jesus died and rose again, EVEN SO THEM and they are coming back with Him. 

Absolutely misplacing the spiritual resurrection with the physical one...they are not the same...those that are spiritually resurrected and have physically died will be in the class of the dead in Christ...

41 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

SO those are not the DEAD in Christ.  

These are the dead in Christ...absolutely wrong...and when they are re-labeled as being unbelievers it is an additional error on top of the first one...

42 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The dead in Christ NEVER GO to the place of the dead. 

The spirit returns to God who gave it...they are sleeping IN JESUS...that is where they are sleeping until they awake at the second coming...believers are in Christ while they are physically alive, and they are sleeping in Christ when they die...at the resurrection they awake...they are not unbelievers when they die in Christ...absolutely wrong.

45 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

The DEAD bury their DEAD, the living go to heaven.  

The dead burying the dead means those who were spiritually dead were burying someone who was physically dead...when we die we are sleeping in Jesus and our spirit returns to God who is in heaven...but their body is in the dust of the earth just like the two prophets who were slain...their bodies were dead and they were sleeping in Jesus...at the seventh trumpet it says the spirit of life from God entered them and they arose upon their feet...they were dead in Christ and now they are alive...they were sleeping in Jesus and now they are awake, they died in mortal bodies and were resurrected in immortal bodies...this is the change that happens to ALL THE DEAD IN CHRIST...they die in mortal bodies and are resurrected in immortal bodies...just like the two prophets...they did not ascend up in flesh and blood bodies...no...it states at the 7th trumpet we shall all be CHANGED...this is what Job was waiting for in Job 14...all the days of my appointed time WILL I WAIT, UNTIL MY CHANGE COMES...' this is THAT DAY that Paul was talking about for all believers...the two prophets did not already have immortal bodies when they died...NO NO NO...their bodies laid in the street for 3.5 days decaying in the dust, because they were mortals like us...but WHEN, AND NOT BEFORE, the spirit of life entered into them from God, they were resurrected...WHY DID THEY NEED TO BE RESURRECTED? Because they were dead....Why did they ascend up to heaven? Because the scripture states the dead in Christ will RISE first...the two prophets are the best example of this...they were absolutely dead and they rose up to heaven in a cloud and their enemies saw it happen.

You are saying they already had immortal bodies at the very time they died...but they didn't ...their bodies were laying dead in the street...what kind of body did they get when the spirit of life entered into them? An immortal body. Why did they get an immortal body right then? Because they didn't have one before. And how does this relate to what Paul said? Extremely pertinent...as BOTH THE LIVING and the dead are given immortal bodies, or are changed at the same time...what does that mean? It means the dead didn't have it before the 7th trumpet sounded and neither did those that were alive and remain...and if the living get it at the seventh trumpet and the dead get it at the same time, then guess what? It would be meaningless to say both are changed at the seventh trumpet if the dead already had it.

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

So ANY AND EVERY DEAD THAT IS RAISED UP IS RAISED UP BECAUSE THEY DID NOT FOLLOW HIM AND DID NOT RETURN WITH HIM.  

Absolutely false. Both the living and the dead are changed at the same time which is the last trump...the dead are resurrected and given an immortal body contrary to the false belief that every believer gets changed at the time they die...this is absolutely false as Paul completely destroys that idea...if everybody got an immortal body at death it would be completely false of Paul to say the dead in Christ would receive an immortal body at the same time those that were living did...it would also be false to think that God will bring the dead in Christ down to earth to rule and to reign with him if they were unbelieving, unsaved persons who did not follow God. HOW ABSURD IS THAT? VERY ABSURD...God said he will COME WITH ALL HIS SAINTS, NOT WILL ALL THE UNBELIEVERS AND UNSAVED...

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

How is it possible for someone who is dead and unjust to be raised up TO IMMORTALITY?  

The dead in Christ are not unjust...they are blessed and holy...ALL THE SAINTS are coming with him...to get all the saints to come with him they must first awake from sleep...which is what the resurrection is...if they were already awake and had glorified bodies there would be no need for a resurrection at all...Paul said we shall all be changed at the last trump...everyone being changed when they die is not what Paul said...it is different from what Paul said...it is contrary to what Paul said...people do not get glorified bodies upon death...Jesus is the only one who has immortality...Paul would have been misleading all the believers to tell them Jesus was the only one who had immortality when he really knew all the saints who had already died had it...Paul was not lying...Paul was saying the truth...Jesus is the ONLY one who has immortality and NO ONE WILL GET IT UNTIL THE LAST TRUMPET SOUNDS...

 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

3I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Do you believe everyone will bow while still in hell?  

No of course not...As Jesus said ALL THOSE THAT ARE IN THE GRAVES SHALL COME FORTH...this is the wicked as sure as the righteous...and all will be judged at the judgment seat of Christ...the sheep on one side and the goats on the other..they are resurrected to be judged and the goats will be cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels...its the same story over and over...the good and bad fish are drawn to shore at the end of this age and the good are kept and bad are cast away...the faithful and the unfaithful servants are both judged at the second coming...the faithful are rewarded and the unfaithful is cast into outer darkness...the wheat and the tares grow together until the harvest and the tares are cast into a furnace of fire and the wheat are gathered into the barn.

And when does this happen? At the day of judgment at the 7th trumpet...it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment...it is the time of the dead that they should be judged...at the 7th trumpet is the time they are judged, not as each individual dies...

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

And how are the DEAD that stand at the GWTJ supposed to get their names in the book of life BY THEIR WORKS if they weren't raised up from the dead to do so? 

They don't 'get their names in the book of life after they have died...of course not...if your name is not in the book of life before you die then one would be condemned at the GWT...nobody can get their name in the book of life after they die...now is the day of salvation...not then...of course the wicked are resurrected but they are not resurrected so they can do some good works to get their name in the book...NO NO NO! Absolutely NO!

 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

Or will they be the NATIONS that come to worship every year, the nations that will be ruled and reigned over? 

No there is a great conversion at the second coming and the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ...this is the great multitude that is washed in the blood of the lamb that comes out of every nation and tongue...these are the nations the saints rules over during the 1000 years...these are the people that go up from year to year to be taught the ways of the Lord as Isaiah said...'Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord...and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths...these are the nations that are left that go up from year to year to Jerusalem.

 

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

OR WILL WE BE GOING TO HELL TO DO THESE DUTIES?  

Of course not...we will rule and reign on the earth (not in hell) for 1000 years...

1 hour ago, DeighAnn said:

THEN YOU WILL NEED TO EXPLAIN TO GOD HOW HE USED THE WRONG WORD BECAUSE THE WORD GOD USED FOR THOSE WHO ARE BEING RAISED IS

Yes, God used the word dead to describe the dead...that is what happens when a persons spirit leaves their body...they die...God didn't use the wrong word and neither did I...I said they are the dead in Christ, God said they are the dead in Christ, and the dead in Christ will be resurrected and get a new body...they don't have one now, but will get one when all are changed at the last trump and not before.

[DeighAnn]

13 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The dead will be raised at the second coming...not before

Agreed

[transmogrified]

26 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

39 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

The dead will be raised at the second coming...not before

Agreed

The dead in Christ will be changed at the same time the living will be changed at the Last Trump and not before...

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, Stan Murff said:

There's not 2 raptures... there is one.

If by "rapture" is meant a trip to heaven in a resurrected body, there is NONE.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The seventh trumpet sounded  when  they went up.. it’s at the last trump EVERYBODY gets immortal bodies .. everybody includes the two prophets.

Right.  There is a difference between the 7th and last trumpet.  After the 7th trumpet we have the LAST series of God's wrath, poured out from 7 bowls.

[FreeGrace]

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

FreeGrace said: 

Absolutely just ONE.  However, according to the "drill", the verse must be unambiguous.  That means no possibility of other meanings.

22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:

23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.

Not sure how these verses address my comment.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

ABSOLUTELY ONE, WITHOUT A DOUBT, FOR SURE AND FOR REAL, NO OTHER WAY TO READ IT, EXACTLY AS WRITTEN, PERFECT ANSWER TO YOUR REQUEST

16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Fortunately, I am well versed in the verses and this is from 1 Thess 4.  But for those who aren't so well versed, I recommend that you include the WHOLE address of what you quote, so they can look up the context of the verse you quote.  This verse is about the Second Advent, when Jesus comes down from heaven with ALL the saints who are already in heaven, and those still alive and remain will be caught up together WITH THEM in the air and all will receive their glorified immortal bodies.

And then all of them will continue down from the clouds to earth where Jesus ends the Trib at the battle of Armageddon, locks Satan for 1,000 years, holds the Bema, and then the victorious wedding supper to kick off the MK!!

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

3498. nekros ►
Strong's Concordance
nekros: dead
Original Word: νεκρός, ά, όν
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: nekros
Phonetic Spelling: (nek-ros')
Definition: dead
Usage: (a) adj: dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal, (b) noun: a dead
dead, lifeless, subject to death, mortal 

NAME ME ONE PERSON  WHO HAS COME TO FAITH AND HAS ATTAINED ETERNAL LIFE
THAT THOSE WORDS FIT

I know that you have a real problem dealing with how the Bible uses the word "dead".  But here is the FACT, you know, "IT IS WRITTEN", your fav phrase.

In John 5:24 Jesus SAID those who believe HAVE (as in possess) eternal life.  You really want to argue with Jesus.  I don't recommend it.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus SAID:  "I GIVE them (believers - Jn 5:24) eternal life".  Again, you want to argue with Jesus about this?  Not very smart to do that.

The FACT is, that EVERYONE who has come to faith POSSESSES eternal life.  Those who have been taught something different have to repent of their FALSE teaching and accept that "IT IS WRITTEN" that all believers possess eternal life.

Or, just keep arguing with what Jesus SAID.  

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

CAN YOU NAME ANY SOULS WHO HAVE never come to faith those words would fit?  Nothing NO MATTER HOW CRYSTAL CLEAR, no matter how much it PERFECTLY ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION

Those who have never come to faith of course do NOT have eternal life.  btw, your posts don't include any or much context, so what "question" do you think you are "perfectly answering"?  

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

IS EVER GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU.  THAT IS MY ONE proof FOR YOU TODAY.

Still have no idea what you are talking about.  Your question, even without the question mark at the end doesn't make sense.  Seems you are asking if the condition of "ever" (whatever that even means) is good enough for me.  I'm unable to answer questions that are garbled.

And just what, exactly, is this "one proof" for me today?  Sorry, but your posts are rather difficult to follow.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

  HOW do you go from having attained IMMORTALITY, to 
being RAISED UP MORTAL?

Because of the difference in simply coming back to physical life, like Lazarus, or Eutycus, or the son in the coffin, or the many who came out of their graves at the crucifixion of Jesus, etc, etc, etc with receiving a glorified immortal body, just like the body Jesus had when He came back from the grave.  

To "gain immortality" is a direct reference to the body.  It is the body that gains immortality.  The soul already IS immortal.  So unbelievers will exist in the LOF for ever and ever in torment.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

BOTH THE JUST AND THE UNJUST ARE RAISED UP AND THEY ARE RAISED UP AT THE SAME TIME AND THEY ARE ALL RAISED UP FROM THE PLACE OF THE DEAD, A PLACE WE NEVER EVEN SEE.  Till you get that right nothing new can come...

Actually, you have it wrong.  Rev 20:5 says plainly ("IT IS WRITTEN") that there will be 1,000 years between the FIRST and next resurrection.  So it is WRONG to think that the resurrection of the saved and unsaved occurs at the same time.  But you are free to believe whatever you want.  I am sticking with "WHAT IS WRITTEN".

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

15For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:

16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

17For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.

OK, you've quoted 3 verses, supposedly from the same passage.  Can you cite the WHOLE address, please?  And, after quoting a verse or passage, it's always polite to explain WHY you are.  So posters can understand how the verse(s) support what you are saying.

13 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

12Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Ditto here.

[transmogrified]

21 minutes ago, FreeGrace said:

Right.  There is a difference between the 7th and last trumpet.  After the 7th trumpet we have the LAST series of God's wrath, poured out from 7 bowls.

When the 7th angel sounds is when the kingdoms of this world becomes the kingdoms of the Lord.. this is the day he returns.. this is the second coming.. the is the day Paul said concerning the coming of the lord AND our gathering together unto him.. the gathering is the resurrection / rapture.. the coming of the lord happens at the 7 th trumpet.. the rapture happens then.. we all get changed then .. this is when the change happens to us.. it’s when the change happens to the two prophets it’s when ALL ARE CHANGED AT THE LAST TRUMP… there is no more trumpets after the seventh