Defense of the Pre Trib Rapture

[Salty]

13 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

The prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:

1. The very next prophetic event to take place will be the rapture of the Church, consisting of everyone who believes in Jesus Christ as Lord, regardless of denomination, or no denomination at all, as taught by both Jesus as well as the apostle Paul. In Jn.14:2-4, 28; 1 Thes.4:13-18; 2 Thes.2:1-8; Rev.3:10 and 4:1-2. All those who died in Christ, to all those who are still alive at His coming in the clouds of the sky, for His Church, where we will all meet Jesus, from where He will take us to our Father in heaven, as He promised us in Jn.14:2-4 and 28.

The very next prophetic event to occur is the coming "great tribulation" Jesus taught us in His Olivet discourse, Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21.

And please don't try games with me on where did you got your license to preach, because God did not make sure His Word would be given to so many people through the printing press just to shackle believers onto another type of priest system of men. His Word is plain enough for those who study and are taught by The Holy Spirit as He promised, which is why the Pre-tribulational Rapture doctrine was never a doctrine of the Christian Church until the Edward Irving and Brethren movement in 1830's Great Britain with John Nelson Darby made it a pop doctrine of that time in their churches. For over 1,800 years the doctrine was not taught in the Christian Church. So the Apostles and later presbyters were all wrong huh, just because they didn't have training like you've had? Is that it?

I tell you brethren, anytime someone blasts out, bragging how they have authority in preaching because of study by this man or that man, or anyone other than Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit, watch out.

 

[Salty]

13 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

The prophetic chronological order of end times events as outlined in the Bible are as follows:


2. The rapture of the Christian Church of Jesus Christ preceeds the revealing of the man of lawlessness/beast/antichrist, according to 2 Thes.2:3-4 and 7-8. Which then immediately sets off the seven years of tribulation, as recorded in Mt.24:4-31, Jesus amplification of Dan.9:27. Where the person who is all three of the "he's" in that verse, and the rider of the white horse in Rev.6:2, is revealed.  All of whom are the antichrist. It is at this stage of end times chronology the 70th Week of Dan.9:27 will begin.
 

Not according to my Bible the rapture does not precede the revealing of the 'man of sin'. Apostle Paul was very specific in 2 Thess.2 that the revealing of the man of sin and the great falling away MUST occur first, prior to the coming of Christ and our gathering to Him:

2 Thess 2:1
2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto Him,
KJV

The subject of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him which Paul begins with makes it plain the sequence of events.

2 Thess 2:3-4
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
KJV

What "day" won't come "except" there comes a falling away first, AND the man of sin be revealed?? The day Paul was speaking of in the very first verse, that of Christ's coming and our gathering to Him. Paul made it simple, as did the KJV translators. The man of sin must be revealed first PRIOR to Christ's coming to gather the Church.

2 Thess 2:8
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
KJV

Even this verse Paul shows this sequence of that Wicked man of sin doing his thing until Jesus returns.

 

[Salty]

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

3. The tribulation is revealed in Jer.30:4-7, referred to as "Jacob's Trouble," and in Dan.9:27, the 70th and final week of God's decree upon the destiny of Israel. In God's revelation to the prophet Daniel, through the angel Gabriel, the 70 "Weeks" [7 years each] of years He has decreed upon the entire destiny of Israel.  From the end of their 70 year exile, through the coming seven year tribulation.  The person who will set it of is the antichrist, the "he" who will establish a seven year covenant/agreement with them. Dan.9:27.
 

And we, Christ's Church, will still be here on earth through that.

The coming Antichrist's reign will be global, as shown in Revelation 13:7. So it's not only an event that is to occur just in the land of Israel in the middle east.

Furthermore, many of scattered Israel (of all 12 tribes, but especially the ten tribes) migrated among the Gentiles long ago, and many of them today are Christians. So when one suggests the Daniel events are to occur upon Israel only, that includes Christ's Church, because many in Christ's Church today are Israelites too.

 

[Salty]

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

Jesus amplified and confirmed Daniel's 70th and final "Week," consisting of the abomination that causes desolation, in Mt.24:15 and 21, and in the counterparts of Mk.13 and in Lk.21.

Yes, Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" in the temple, which is about idol worship of the image of the beast. And He quoted that in His Olivet discourse which some like to play games with, saying it has already been fulfilled when it has not.

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

4. The fig trees have sprouted leaves, we can see for ourselves and know that summer is near. Lk.21:29. Which began with the new nation of Israel, when it was reestablished on May 14, 1948.

Yes, definitely. Though some think 1963 when Israel took all of Jerusalem was the real start.

 

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

5. The Christian Church of Jesus Christ is called up into heaven, symbolically illustrated by the apostle John in Rev.4:1-2, confirming 2 Thes.2:3 and 7-8.  As prophecied in Jn.14:2-4, 28 and 1 Thes.4:16-17, while Israel and all non-believers will go through the seven year tribulation. The Church is seen again at their marriage of the Lamb [Jesus Christ] to His Bride [The Church] in heaven, recorded in Rev.19:7-9, while the tribulation is taking place on earth.

That simply is not... true per God's Word.

In Jesus' Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, He showed the saints being gathered AFTER the tribulation, and one example (Matt.24:29-31) covers the "asleep" saints He brings with Him like Paul said in 1 Thess.4, and the other Olivet discourse example (Mark 13:24-27) shows the saints still alive on earth being gathered with them, which also is in agreement with 1 Thess.4 where Paul taught the "caught up" event of the Church on earth.

Thusly, Jesus showed in Matt.24 and Mark 13 the gathering of His Church, and the time, that being "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29). That makes any idea of the Church being raptured prior to the tribulation a falsehood.

 

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

6. Jesus will return, seven ears later, with His Church, following Him on white horses, dressed in fine linen, white and clean, which stands for the righteous acts of the saints [Verse 8 NIV]. In His Second Coming to the earth, with His angels, in His armies from heaven, in Zech.14:4-5, Mt.24:31, Jude 14, and Rev.19:14.

Those ideas above are simply not Biblical.

Our Lord Jesus said in Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial that He comes "as a thief". And according to Apostles Paul and Peter the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10), which is the last day of this present world when God's consuming fire will burn the elements of man's works off this earth, which of course will end the great tribulation at the same time. That is when Jesus showed He comes to gather His Church, for even on that 6th Vial He is still warning His Church on earth that He comes as a thief, and to watch!

On that same "day of the Lord" is when the battle of Armageddon will occur. Jesus comes bringing the "asleep" saints with Him, and then immediately gathers His saints still alive on earth (the "caught up" event), and then all go to Jerusalem ON EARTH to do battle, like Zechariah 14 shows.

 

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

7. Jesus will fight  the battle of Armageddon, with His armies from heaven and end it, recorded in Rev.19:11-21.  And save the remnant of Israel, who then recognize Him as their Messiah, recorded in  Zech.12:10, and "all Israel will be saved," recorded in Rom.11:26...

Yes, but we, His Church, will also still be on earth waiting on His coming on that "day of the Lord", that is, those who remain faithful to Him all the way to the end of this world like He said (Matt.10:22).

 

14 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

10. The first resurrection takes place which consists of all those brought to the Lord during the tribulation by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists. They will be martyred during the tribulation, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them. Those who are brought to Christ by the 144,000 Israelite evangelists, in the absence of the departed Church during the tribulation, do not belong to the Christian Church [who will be raptured before the seven year tribulation begins, as addressed above]. They will be made priests of God and of Christ, and rule with Him for 1,000 years, after their resurrection, according to Rev.20:4 and 6.  They will be beheaded and pay with their lives for their testimony of Jesus, by the two beasts, the antichrist, the false prophet and the ten horns [nations] allied to them..

Those martyred during the tribulation will not just be those of Israel. That was an idea from Darby who pushed the pre-trib rapture idea he got from the Irvingites. Christ's Church being gathered is a one-time event on the final day of this world, for both the saints who have already died, and for the saints still alive on earth on the day of Jesus' return on the "day of the Lord" after the tribulation.

Your teaching on the 144,000 is an incorrect idea from men's traditions also, and shows a lack of understanding Old Testament history about Israel.

God split old Israel into TWO separate kingdoms after Solomon's days (1 Kings 11). Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim was given to be king over Israel of ten tribes in the northern lands, their capital at Samaria. Rehoboam, Solomon's son from the tribe of Judah and house of David was king over the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and some small remnants of the northern tribes which refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship. Their kingdom was in the south, their capitial at Jerusalem. These two houses warred against each other.

Then God removed all... of the ten northern tribes captive to the lands of Assyria and the Medes, never to return, even to this day, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the ten tribes were all that remained in the promise land at Jerusalem/Judea. About 120 years later, even they (in Jeremiah's day) fell away from God and were taken captive to Babylon for 70 years, with only a small remnant of them returning to Jerusalem (the Jews).

So what happened to all the ten tribes, which made up the majority of the peoples of the nation of Israel? Also the majority of those taken captive to Babylon which never returned to Jerusalem in Ezra's day? They were scattered among the Gentiles as it still is today. When Jesus came and died on the cross The Gospel was then sent next to the lands of Asia Minor and Europe. These areas became the first Christian nations accepting Christianity on national scales, Britain being the first. These were the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus referred to, and I'm especially referring to Christ's Church of western Christian history! This is how God's promise that Jacob would become "a company of nations" and Ephraim "a multitude of nations" per Gen.35 & 48 would be fulfilled.

Thus the 144,000 tribes of Israel do NOT... represent unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel sealed during the tribulation. The house of Judah (3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi) are only 3 of the tribes represented in that Rev.7 list. The rest of the tribes there are of the scattered "lost sheep of the house of Israel" that were scattered first, never to return to the holy land as a people. And to them is who Jesus pointed specifically to that He was sent to, and they would believe on Him (thus fulfilling The Gospel and scattered ten tribes among the Gentiles, which Paul also showed with quoting to Gentile Romans in Rom.9 from Hosea 1, which Hosea was specifically written to the ten tribes under Ephraim).

 

 

[Quasar93]

13 hours ago, seeking the lost said:

Greetings Quasar93

I make a clear distinction of the two.  The first resurrection is only of the tribulation martyrs.   They do not ascend they are being raised to reign.  Very clearly the second resurrection is one thousand years later and is the only resurrection that would allow a rapture.  What part of we will not proceed them is it that you do not understand?  Therefore the second resurrection is concurrent with the rapture.  The events happening in this order:  The dead in Christ shll rise first then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the air and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I am an unlearned and ignorant man.  I have just been with Jesus. 

 

FYI, there is no Bible College in the world where the amateur layman teaches the teacher.  I suggest you keep that in mind.

 

Review the Chronological order of end times events I posted on this page (43), the third post from the top for the Scriptural support it has, in the verification of it. Which is fully endorsed by the following men of God, from every walk of Christian teaching.

 

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

 

The following link is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, complete with Scriptural proof.  There is no such thing taught in the Bible, as a pre-wrath/mid-trib or post trib rapture, let  along a post mill rapture you are suggesting.

 

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-

 

 

Quasar93

 

 

[Quasar93]

8 hours ago, Salty said:

Yes, Jesus quoted from the Book of Daniel about the placing of the "abomination of desolation" in the temple, which is about idol worship of the image of the beast. And He quoted that in His Olivet discourse which some like to play games with, saying it has already been fulfilled when it has not.

Yes, definitely. Though some think 1963 when Israel took all of Jerusalem was the real start.

 

That simply is not... true per God's Word.

In Jesus' Olivet discourse of Matt.24 and Mark 13, He showed the saints being gathered AFTER the tribulation, and one example (Matt.24:29-31) covers the "asleep" saints He brings with Him like Paul said in 1 Thess.4, and the other Olivet discourse example (Mark 13:24-27) shows the saints still alive on earth being gathered with them, which also is in agreement with 1 Thess.4 where Paul taught the "caught up" event of the Church on earth.

Thusly, Jesus showed in Matt.24 and Mark 13 the gathering of His Church, and the time, that being "Immediately after the tribulation of those days" (Matt.24:29). That makes any idea of the Church being raptured prior to the tribulation a falsehood.

 

Those ideas above are simply not Biblical.

Our Lord Jesus said in Rev.16:15 on the 6th Vial that He comes "as a thief". And according to Apostles Paul and Peter the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Pet.3:10), which is the last day of this present world when God's consuming fire will burn the elements of man's works off this earth, which of course will end the great tribulation at the same time. That is when Jesus showed He comes to gather His Church, for even on that 6th Vial He is still warning His Church on earth that He comes as a thief, and to watch!

On that same "day of the Lord" is when the battle of Armageddon will occur. Jesus comes bringing the "asleep" saints with Him, and then immediately gathers His saints still alive on earth (the "caught up" event), and then all go to Jerusalem ON EARTH to do battle, like Zechariah 14 shows.

 

Yes, but we, His Church, will also still be on earth waiting on His coming on that "day of the Lord", that is, those who remain faithful to Him all the way to the end of this world like He said (Matt.10:22).

 

Those martyred during the tribulation will not just be those of Israel. That was an idea from Darby who pushed the pre-trib rapture idea he got from the Irvingites. Christ's Church being gathered is a one-time event on the final day of this world, for both the saints who have already died, and for the saints still alive on earth on the day of Jesus' return on the "day of the Lord" after the tribulation.

Your teaching on the 144,000 is an incorrect idea from men's traditions also, and shows a lack of understanding Old Testament history about Israel.

God split old Israel into TWO separate kingdoms after Solomon's days (1 Kings 11). Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim was given to be king over Israel of ten tribes in the northern lands, their capital at Samaria. Rehoboam, Solomon's son from the tribe of Judah and house of David was king over the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, and some small remnants of the northern tribes which refused Jeroboam's calf idol worship. Their kingdom was in the south, their capitial at Jerusalem. These two houses warred against each other.

Then God removed all... of the ten northern tribes captive to the lands of Assyria and the Medes, never to return, even to this day, the tribes of Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and some small remnants of the ten tribes were all that remained in the promise land at Jerusalem/Judea. About 120 years later, even they (in Jeremiah's day) fell away from God and were taken captive to Babylon for 70 years, with only a small remnant of them returning to Jerusalem (the Jews).

So what happened to all the ten tribes, which made up the majority of the peoples of the nation of Israel? Also the majority of those taken captive to Babylon which never returned to Jerusalem in Ezra's day? They were scattered among the Gentiles as it still is today. When Jesus came and died on the cross The Gospel was then sent next to the lands of Asia Minor and Europe. These areas became the first Christian nations accepting Christianity on national scales, Britain being the first. These were the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus referred to, and I'm especially referring to Christ's Church of western Christian history! This is how God's promise that Jacob would become "a company of nations" and Ephraim "a multitude of nations" per Gen.35 & 48 would be fulfilled.

Thus the 144,000 tribes of Israel do NOT... represent unbelieving Jews in the state of Israel sealed during the tribulation. The house of Judah (3 tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi) are only 3 of the tribes represented in that Rev.7 list. The rest of the tribes there are of the scattered "lost sheep of the house of Israel" that were scattered first, never to return to the holy land as a people. And to them is who Jesus pointed specifically to that He was sent to, and they would believe on Him (thus fulfilling The Gospel and scattered ten tribes among the Gentiles, which Paul also showed with quoting to Gentile Romans in Rom.9 from Hosea 1, which Hosea was specifically written to the ten tribes under Ephraim).

 

 

 

You have raised many questions in rebuke of my post on this page above, on the chronological order of end times events.  My response to you can be found in the link I will post below, that consists of two posts, consecutively.  The first one is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.  The second one consists of the Scriptural proof of it.

I suggest you pay particular attention to the translation history of the following verse in 2 Thess.2:3 for the precise timing of the rapture, which refutes most of your rebuttal.

 

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-

 

 

Quasar93

 

 

[Salty]

10 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

FYI, there is no Bible College in the world where the amateur layman teaches the teacher.  I suggest you keep that in mind.

 

Review the Chronological order of end times events I posted on this page (43), the third post from the top for the Scriptural support it has, in the verification of it. Which is fully endorsed by the following men of God, from every walk of Christian teaching.

 

1. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School; 2. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute; 3. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary; 4. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology; 5. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible; 6. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary; 7. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes; 8. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary; 9. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible; 10. Editorial Committee Chairman, J. E. Schuyler English, Litt.D.

Chuck Missler, Koinonia House, Charles Stanley, Baptist minister, Zola Levitt, Levitt's Ministries, Miles Weiss, Zola Levitt's Ministries, Moishe Rosen, Jew's For Jesus Org., David Bickner, Jew's For Jesus Org., Mitch Glaser, His Chosen People Minisries Dwight Pentecost, Dean at Dallas Theological Seminary, Harold Wilmington, Dean at Liberty Seminary, Arno Froese, Editor and CEO of Midnight Call Ministries, Thomas Ice, PhD., Author, Jack Van Impe, TV Ministry, Tim Le Haye, Author, Jerry Fallwell, Baptist minister, Billie Graham, TV ministry, Franklin Graham, TV ministry, Dr. Ron Carlson, Dr. Wilfred Hahn, Dave Hunt, Ed Decker and Dr. Norbert Lieth.

 

The following link is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church, complete with Scriptural proof.  There is no such thing taught in the Bible, as a pre-wrath/mid-trib or post trib rapture, let  along a post mill rapture you are suggesting.

 

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-

 

 

Quasar93

 

The ONLY Bible college required to get understanding in The Word of God is understanding by The Holy Spirit through Faith on the Blood of Jesus Christ. And that applies to this world, and for the world to come, eternal.

I could just as easily throw up a long list of scholars and pastors of the past and present that preach a Post-tribulational gathering to Christ Jesus like The Bible actually teaches, but it wouldn't mean anything to those who have not studied God's Word for themselves with God's direct help by The Holy Spirit.

Isa 2:22
22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?
KJV

 

[Salty]

10 hours ago, Quasar93 said:

 

You have raised many questions in rebuke of my post on this page above, on the chronological order of end times events.  My response to you can be found in the link I will post below, that consists of two posts, consecutively.  The first one is the teachings of Jesus, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul on the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church.  The second one consists of the Scriptural proof of it.

I suggest you pay particular attention to the translation history of the following verse in 2 Thess.2:3 for the precise timing of the rapture, which refutes most of your rebuttal.

 

http://deeperwalk.lefora.com/topic/19401898/The-Biblical-teaching-of-the-

 

 

Quasar93

 

 

Sorry, that's just not going to work. The KJV translation is well good enough in 2 Thessalonians 2 where Apostle Paul was teaching the proper sequence of end time events leading up to the day of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church.

2 Thess 2:2
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
KJV

As a matter of fact with the phrase "day of Christ" by the KJV translators in 2 Thess.2:2, the Greek for "Christ" in the manuscripts is in reality the Greek word 'kurios' which means 'lord'. The Greek word for Christ is Christos, not kurios. So Paul was actually pointing directly to the "day of the Lord" idea from the OT prophets, as he also had earlier in 1 Thess.5 pointed to that day about the end of this world.

Furthermore, nowhere... did our Lord Jesus nor any of His Apostles ever teach a Pre-trib Rapture idea. The only time of the gathering of the Church Jesus and His Apostles taught was on the last day of this world, also called the "day of the Lord" from the OT prophets.

 

Edited December 12, 2016 by Salty

[Quasar93]

19 hours ago, Salty said:

The very next prophetic event to occur is the coming "great tribulation" Jesus taught us in His Olivet discourse, Matt.24; Mark 13; Luke 21.

And please don't try games with me on where did you got your license to preach, because God did not make sure His Word would be given to so many people through the printing press just to shackle believers onto another type of priest system of men. His Word is plain enough for those who study and are taught by The Holy Spirit as He promised, which is why the Pre-tribulational Rapture doctrine was never a doctrine of the Christian Church until the Edward Irving and Brethren movement in 1830's Great Britain with John Nelson Darby made it a pop doctrine of that time in their churches. For over 1,800 years the doctrine was not taught in the Christian Church. So the Apostles and later presbyters were all wrong huh, just because they didn't have training like you've had? Is that it?

I tell you brethren, anytime someone blasts out, bragging how they have authority in preaching because of study by this man or that man, or anyone other than Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit, watch out.

 

 

First of all, Jesus ministry in His first advent, was exclusively to Israel, He made abundantly clear in Mt.15:24 and 10:5-6.  The Church did not exist then, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come, according to Jn.7:39, until at Pentecost, ten days after Jesus ascended into heaven, according to Acts 1:9 and 2:13. As such, there is nothing whatever in the Olivet discourse in Mt.24; Mk.13, and Luke 21 that has a single thing to do with the Church. 

When Jesus returns in His second coming to earth, as recorded in Mt.24:30, which He amplified in Rev.10:14, it will be with His Church, after His marriage to them in heaven, according to Rev.19:7-8, He caught up into the sky with Him, seven years earlier, in Jn.14:2-3, 28; 1 Thess.4:17 and 2 Thess.2:3 and 7-8.

In the second place, when I am confronted with those who dogmatically contradict the Biblical facts I have posted, I will let them know, I am not an amateur layperson expositor by my qualifications to teach the Bible.  Not someone who is setting forth my personal views of end times eschatology.  Furthermore, my guidance and direction as to what I post comes directly from my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.  No one else.

 

Quasar93   

[Salty]

On 12/10/2016 at 0:49 PM, seeking the lost said:

Greetings Omegaman 3.0

You might ask  Quasar that question.  I do not link these to a pre tribulation rapture.  I consider his position as a pre resurrection rapture.  I believe that the resurrection must take place before the rapture.  We will not proceed them.  1 Thes 4:15

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Quasar is simply wrong on the issue of the raising of the asleep saints of 1 Thess.4.

John 6:39
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent Me, that of all which He hath given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
KJV

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of Him That sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on Him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 6:44
44 No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
KJV

John 11:24
24 Martha saith unto him, "I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day."
KJV

The "last day" our Lord Jesus and Martha refer to there of course is the FINAL day of this present world. The word "resurrection" in that John 11:24 verse is Greek anastasis, literally pointing to the raising of the dead.

1 Thess 4:16
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV

Thus that Scripture means exactly what it states, that on Christ's descent to earth at His 2nd coming, it begins with a "shout", the "voice of the archangel" with "the trump of God" (blowing of the trumpet), that is when the resurrection of the saints will occur. That also IS... the 1 Cor.15 event Paul was speaking of to occur on the "last trump":

1 Cor 15:52-53
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
KJV

The difference between those two examples by Paul is that with 1 Cor.15 he is showing what the resurrection actually is, i.e., putting on immortality through Christ Jesus. Nor do I believe the resurrection is about getting a new flesh body, but even when we die and our heavenly body is present with The Lord like Paul hinted to in 2 Cor.5, it still is not in the place of Heaven where The Father is, but instead is in Paradise where Paul was caught up to, and where Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16 found themselves at. Even the souls of the asleep saints today who have already died are still mortal until this resurrection event by Christ on the last day of this world.

Also I forgot to mention this:

John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,

29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
KJV

Jesus revealed by that, that the dead are raised on that same day of His coming, and go to their respective type of resurrection, the just to the "resurrection of life" and the wicked to the "resurrection of damnation."

Edited December 12, 2016 by Salty