Conversation with those who believe Christ has NOT returned (2nd Advent) and will NOT be coming pre trib (rapture)

[Charlie744]

17 hours ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi Charlie,  

Here we agree  "When the 'Stone' strikes the image at its feet...."   

 

Here not so much, 
they that are broken apart are broken apart NOT BECAUSE there is to be any more 'molding' going to be taking place but that division is the division of the sheep and goats, the good and bad, the marked and not marked, the end of the ages because it is THE CLOSING OF THE OPEN DOOR. 

THAT 'Stone' made without hands' that is coming to crust this last and final rebellious kingdom of this age and to bring about ALL nations under the rod of Iron of our Lord Jesus Christ.   

THE DREAM foretells WHAT?  

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest TILL THAT A STONE CUT OUT WITHOUT HANDS,

WHO IS THE STONE THAT THE BUILDERS REJECTED?  WHO HAS BECOME THE CORNER STONE?  

which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

THAT KINGDOM IS DESTROYED, BROKEN INTO INDIVIDUAL (PEOPLE) PIECES

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

THY KINGDOM COME, THY WILL BE DONE ON EARTH.....AS IT IS IN HEAVEN.  AND THAT GREAT MOUNTAIN FILLS THE WHOLE EARTH AS that that was of Satans 'tribulation/kingdom'  IS BURNED UP AND BLOWN AWAY.  

THIS IS the return of Christ.  It can be nothing else, it can be no one else as NO ONE ever has or EVER will be capable of such a things. 


Ok, I think we both see a  pretty wide gap separating us here and so I need you to speak to me WITH SCRIPTURE and to show cause why my rendering of it is incorrect and how you see it as 'TIME FOR molding' of clay and not a time of the end of the ages.  

Don't get me wrong as I believe that the Lords Day/Mille is a time of 'molding' so to speak of those who didn't make it.   Thank you Charlie....D  

DeighAnn, thank you again for responding!  First, let me say once again that I DO understand that just about everyone contends the "Stone" that strikes the image:

1) destroys the entire image at that time, and,

2) the "crushing" of the pieces are then (same time) are made into dust or powder -   But my interpretations are just the opposite.

Now before I mentioned a few things I want to answer your important request that I provide you with some Scripture / verses to help you understand my position. Here the are:  They are EXACTLY the same verses in Daniel that you are using for your interpretations! No different.... You have the same verses in chapter 2 that reveal the Dream sequence, you have the same verses revealing the Interpretation sequence.... now, you use them (essentially, vv. 31 to 43) to interpret them..... I am doing the same.

S0, now that we have the same source records to pull from let me ask you"

1) If the "Stone" strikes the feet:

                   a) When does it strike the feet and what are the feet?

                   b) If the "Stone" is Jesus, then when did this happen?

2) If the "Stone" broke the entire image into pieces, would that mean:

                    a) Greece and Rome no longer would exist  - physically?

                    b) Greece and Rome no longer would exist - spiritually?

3) What was the purpose of the "Stone" striking the feet?

4) If Jesus is the "Stone" and it broke the image into pieces would that mean He came to destroy all mankind (image) at His coming? 

5) If Jesus, as the "Stone" broke the entire image into pieces and the NEXT immediate act was these "pieces" were "crushed" into powder or dust and blown into the wind, then did that happen (physically or spiritually)?

                      a) Again, if that happened at His first coming, why are we still hear on earth and why would Jesus destroy everything when He came to offer Himself as a sacrifice for OUR sins......

                                 1) He came to die on the Cross and then destroy the image at the same time? (mankind).......

No, I have read today's accepted interpretations on chapter 2 by all the scholars and commentators and serious students of Daniel and, once again, the reason I started to study Daniel is because there are SO MANY misinterpretations that are considered as "gospel"...... but they are all incorrect - and by that I meant the 19 or so "issues" I specifically listed in my earlier response.... the only thing they have going for them is they have been around for some 200 or so years and each generation of Daniel commentators takes those (same starting point) and comments on them and perpetuates the misinterpretations  ---- Once again, I have read their interpretations  = whether they were developed by Augustine, Newtown, Gill, Barnes, Kaiser, Baldwin, Clarke, Lange, on and on and on.... they essentially piggy back off of each other, present the almost identical theory or interpretation, they will add their own little spin on them and publish another of the same 10,000 commentaries on Daniel - they add nothing in new interpretations to this extremely difficult book - and it is not because they have identified the true interpretations, but because Daniel is so difficult and their APPROACH is identical.... they all attempt to understand Daniel as though it is a history book and not a prophetic book from the mind of God Himself.

There is no new thinking going on here..... sorry but that is what I have found.... Once again, and I have said this so many times  - study Daniel using Daniel and some of the verses found in Jeremiah, Ezra, etc., that is it! Do NOT try to interpret Daniel from ANY external secular records or NT books - God knows what He is doing..... He provided all the information within Daniel to interpret Daniel -- But I will agree there are certain prophecies within Daniel that are meant for certain periods..... We at this time have ALL THE information to properly interpret the entire book of Daniel because we are near the end times and now God is opening up Daniel - He would never allow this prophetic book to go misinterpreted or uninterpreted BEFORE His second coming - but He will and has determined the correct and proper time it will or is to be revealed.....

Thanks DieghAnn, look forward to hearing back...Happy Sabbath, Charlie
 

 

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

1) If the "Stone" strikes the feet:

                   a) When does it strike the feet and what are the feet?

                   b) If the "Stone" is Jesus, then when did this happen?

2) If the "Stone" broke the entire image into pieces, would that mean:

                    a) Greece and Rome no longer would exist  - physically?

                    b) Greece and Rome no longer would exist - spiritually?

Hi Charlie, what a trip!!!  Cool.  I like a challenge. 

1)  Capitol S  -  Going to my Greens Interlinear to check out the word there.  Be right back.  

2)  Before I forget they would exist physically but EVEN NOW their kingdoms of ruling over the WHOLE earth are past.  Remember one follows the next.  We know the gold head is Nebu, that kingdom is gone and we know to whom it went.  We are being told what kingdoms will be ruling OVER THY HOLY CITY AND THY PEOPLE.    We know it goes to Medo Persia.  That is what the BIBLE says.  NOT man,  GOD. Those are GODS WORDS and as such not UP for interpretation.  GOD has spoken.  

3)  

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Matthew 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

WHO IS THAT STONE? 

(from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:)
Genesis 49:22 Joseph is a fruitful bough, even a fruitful bough by a well; whose branches run over the wall:

Genesis 49:23 The archers have sorely grieved him, and shot at him, and hated him:

Genesis 49:24 But his bow abode in strength, and the arms of his hands were made strong by the hands of the mighty God of Jacob; (from thence is the shepherd, the stone of Israel:) 

THOSE ARE GODS WORDS. 
No man has had his hand in them.    

WHO IS THE SHEPHERD? exact same as Who is THE STONE?  
God Himself answers your question.  


It hasn't happened yet, not till the second advent. 
WHAT kingdom is RULING over Jerusalem and the whole rest of the world?  WHO all is worshipping the image?  Who is buying and selling because they have been deceived by Satans lies and deceptions and have taken the mark? 


Who does Christ destroy with the brightness of His coming?  What happens to Satans kingdom when Christ returns?  IT ALL BECOMES THE PAST.  A passage of time under a certain system with certain rules and certain leaders THAT POOF, IS GONE.  


WHO ISN'T being deceived?  Who isn't taking the mark or buying and selling?  Who is having 10 day trials?  Who is the Holy Spirit speaking through?  How are the 144,000 dry boned souls, until preached the Words of God becoming alive/being saved/remaining faithful by never letting the whore buy them?  Who keeps their heads covered with the Word and doesn't mix with the IRON?   The remnant CLAY virgins, ever faithful, no mark, alive (and soon to be changed), loving the Lord with the Gospel armor on DONT MIX with the iron.   


The stone bringing down the whole image is the end of kingdoms that don't worship God having any sort of rule.  The image.  A figure in a dream used for the purpose of prophecy in which all info is to be gained by what DANIEL is given to TELL.  NOTHING of the dream itself tells us anything.  NOT ONE SOUL COULD FIGURE IT OUT, NOT even Daniel.  There isn't a real image, just a real prophecy of what is going to take place in the future. And though Nebo may set up an image later,  it is definitely not a 'copy' of the one in the dream.  

Keeping 'em short,  Thank you again for the explanation.  D 

 

[Selah7]

.

Edited July 17, 2021 by Selah7

[DeighAnn]

1 hour ago, Charlie744 said:

4) If Jesus is the "Stone" and it broke the image into pieces would that mean He came to destroy all mankind (image) at His coming? 

Hi again Charlie,  

YES, that would mean ALL mankind who are worshipping the image, have taken the mark of the beast will be destroyed. 
SO, what happens after death of the flesh body?  The dead rise.  

ALSO,  there are those who have REMAINED in the brightness of Christ, who have OBEYED God words.  They have studied to show themselves approved.  They have put on the armor of God.  They have withstood the fiery darts of Satan.  They have remained faithful, virgins because they have not been deceived Satans lies and signs and wonders  

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

BUT HOW CAN THAT BE???  

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  (caught up to meet the Lord in the air) 

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven)  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

FLESH is corruption, it decays it dies.  That is something that took place at the beginning of THIS story.  That Adam brought in.  THAT is something the LORDS RETURN will be CORRECTING, for everyone.  Can't leave some IF ALL ARE CHANGED.  No matter how many people will say 'there is going to be flesh during the Mille/Lords Day' GODS WORD says NOPE, not true.  Look up that word ALL.  Check and see if 'ALL' ever has or ever will mean - 'Naw, just some'.  No matter how much logic and wisdom and twists are put forth to deceive, it just can't be.  IF it could then GODs WORD would be telling a lie.  PERIOD.   No wonder we are told 

Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


WHAT came right before that?  

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Remember we are about to be shown a MYSTERY.  IN THE TWINKLE OF AN EYE...
 

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Gotta ask yourself,  if everyone isn't changed upon the return of Christ
and at the end of the Lords Day they go into the lake of fire

WHEN WILL THEY HAVE EVER 'BEAR' ED their heavenly?

 

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The end of the age of ages.  As a woman goes through labor and the pains come closer and closer until that NEW BABY is born.  JUST like the dawn of a NEW AGE.   

HEAVEN is coming to earth.  ANGELS,  spiritual beings ALL OF US WILL BE CHANGED.  Who will judge the 'angels'?  
 

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

THIS TELLS US NO MORE 1000 year flesh lives

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

This tells us God is looking forward to END of the 'earthy' man. If the Lords Day came at the same time someone on earth turned 120 they would end up being 1120, an age NEVER given flesh to live.  Just a thinking point.   


Keeping 'em short....D
 

[Charlie744]

3 minutes ago, DeighAnn said:

Hi again Charlie,  

YES, that would mean ALL mankind who are worshipping the image, have taken the mark of the beast will be destroyed. 
SO, what happens after death of the flesh body?  The dead rise.  

ALSO,  there are those who have REMAINED in the brightness of Christ, who have OBEYED God words.  They have studied to show themselves approved.  They have put on the armor of God.  They have withstood the fiery darts of Satan.  They have remained faithful, virgins because they have not been deceived Satans lies and signs and wonders  

 

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

BUT HOW CAN THAT BE???  

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  (caught up to meet the Lord in the air) 

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump (For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven)  for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 

1 Corinthians 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

FLESH is corruption, it decays it dies.  That is something that took place at the beginning of THIS story.  That Adam brought in.  THAT is something the LORDS RETURN will be CORRECTING, for everyone.  Can't leave some IF ALL ARE CHANGED.  No matter how many people will say 'there is going to be flesh during the Mille/Lords Day' GODS WORD says NOPE, not true.  Look up that word ALL.  Check and see if 'ALL' ever has or ever will mean - 'Naw, just some'.  No matter how much logic and wisdom and twists are put forth to deceive, it just can't be.  IF it could then GODs WORD would be telling a lie.  PERIOD.   No wonder we are told 

Matthew 10:27 What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

1 Corinthians 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

1 Corinthians 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.


WHAT came right before that?  

1 Corinthians 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

1 Corinthians 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:

1 Corinthians 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

1 Corinthians 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1 Corinthians 15:39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.

1 Corinthians 15:40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

1 Corinthians 15:41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

1Corinthians 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

1Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Remember we are about to be shown a MYSTERY.  IN THE TWINKLE OF AN EYE...
 

1 Corinthians 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

1 Corinthians 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

1 Corinthians 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

1 Corinthians 15:48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

1Corinthians 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

Gotta ask yourself,  if everyone isn't changed upon the return of Christ
and at the end of the Lords Day they go into the lake of fire

WHEN WILL THEY HAVE EVER 'BEAR' ED their heavenly?

 

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

The end of the age of ages.  As a woman goes through labor and the pains come closer and closer until that NEW BABY is born.  JUST like the dawn of a NEW AGE.   

HEAVEN is coming to earth.  ANGELS,  spiritual beings ALL OF US WILL BE CHANGED.  Who will judge the 'angels'?  
 

Genesis 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

THIS TELLS US NO MORE 1000 year flesh lives

Genesis 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

This tells us God is looking forward to END of the 'earthy' man. If the Lords Day came at the same time someone on earth turned 120 they would end up being 1120, an age NEVER given flesh to live.  Just a thinking point.   


Keeping 'em short....D
 

DeighAnn, I am going to ask you to try and look at this a little differently... just a request mind you!

Rather than you interpreting chapter 2 of Daniel by referencing and bringing into your mind all these verses in the NT, I would ask you to read / study / interpret chapter 2 as if it was just written ... You can certainly use the rest of Daniel and pre-Daniel books but nothing after Daniel.

This way you can focus just on what you think God is trying to reveal to us in Daniel.

The NT was not written until much later and Daniel can and should be interpreted without the NT and secular history books. See if you might try that... Charlie 

[Selah7]

10 minutes ago, Charlie744 said:

DeighAnn, I am going to ask you to try and look at this a little differently... just a request mind you!

Rather than you interpreting chapter 2 of Daniel by referencing and bringing into your mind all these verses in the NT, I would ask you to read / study / interpret chapter 2 as if it was just written ... You can certainly use the rest of Daniel and pre-Daniel books but nothing after Daniel.

This way you can focus just on what you think God is trying to reveal to us in Daniel.

The NT was not written until much later and Daniel can and should be interpreted without the NT and secular history books. See if you might try that... Charlie 

Hi, Charlie … So is there anything specific in ch. 2 you’d like to discuss? 

[Charlie744]

1 hour ago, Selah7 said:

Hi, Charlie … So is there anything specific in ch. 2 you’d like to discuss? 

Hello, no I jumped into this post rather late in the game and thought I would offer my thoughts on chapter 2.

I imagine you are interested in Daniel and would like to offer your thoughts....

Do you have any thoughts on chapter 2 and what we have been discussing over the last few pages?

 Thank you, Charlie 

[Selah7]

Okay, Charlie.  Here’s a bit on Daniel 2:34-35

Nebuchadnezzar's dream about the four great world empires, (1st. Babylonian, 2nd. Medio-Persiain, 3rd. Grecian and 4th. Roman) all of which Daniel prophesied would fall, (they have, they are history) followed by a fifth world empire, the Stone Kingdom (still future).

Daniel 2:34 Thou sawest untill a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.

Daniel 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. 

Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar that he saw a stone cut out without hands smite the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and break them to pieces. That Stone is Jesus Christ, the Rock of our salvation, the Stone of Israel as He is called in Gen. 49:24. He is the stone which the builders rejected and He shall now be the head stone of the corner over all the earth.  Jesus Christ is the Rock, the only true foundation upon which we stand. The image that Nebuchadnezzar saw had a very weak foundation of iron mixed with clay (a prophecy  of the Beast), and it won’t be long before it comes crashing down!

Edited July 17, 2021 by Selah7

[luigi]

On 6/24/2021 at 6:38 PM, DeighAnn said:

I would REALLY like to converse with others who BELIEVE, 'that Christ has NOT YET returned for the 2nd Advent as King of kings and Lord of lords for the Day of vengeance to RULE with a rod of iron for the Millennium (Lords Day),  and there will be NO 'coming or return' PRE TRIBULATION to 'gather' anyone.  (those are the only parameters set in stone for the conversation) 

It seems that WHENEVER this topic is brought up,  the discussion is immediately turned to 'He already has', OR 'He is coming PRE TRIB',  while 

WHAT WILL TAKE PLACE (for those who believe it is future) NEVER GETS ADDRESSED. 

(IF I AM WRONG,  and the conversation doesn't turn to 'He already has' or 'He will Pre trib', please let me apologize now so there will be no need to bring that up).

In hopes of being VERY transparent,  IF YOU BELIEVE HE HAS ALREADY RETURNED, PLEASE continue to address those thoughts and comments and concerns in the more appropriate posts addressing that and same for the PRE TRIB Rapture theory folks. 
This is not meant to be a discussion on either of those.

I thank you for your understanding. 

ALSO, please help me out by not bringing in the  'known teachings or theories of men'.  I don't know who they are, I don't know what they teach and I don't want to know at this time.   Seriously just looking to find scripture,  and scripture to back up scripture. 

SO AGAIN, IF you believe He returned in 70AD, PLEASE GO TO THOSE POSTS.  IF you believe that He will come PRE TRIBULATION, PLEASE address anything to do with those beliefs in the more appropriate places.  


THAT BEING SAID,

There are things we are told that must take place before He returns. There are also things that take place once he is released for the final war before the lake of fire.  How can we determine  what scripture  goes where.  

Because Satans spirit has been LONG working in 'those who are 'of your father the devil and the works of him you will do' and 'those who are of the synagogue of Satan' and those in which 'the mystery of iniquity doeth already work' AND we are told in the final generation that 'that the whole world will worship after him', and the 1948 prophecy filling up the time indicated in Lev 26,

DOES it seem that the  multi kingdoms (crowns), multi powers (horns) rising up (coming together in the name of money and power) out of the peoples of the world (sea) with changes coming quicker and quicker technology, transportation, exploration etc. (labor pains) has far to go??  

We know? or do we?  that during the first half of the week it is the 'under the influence' of the 'one head' (of the beast rising up aka Satan, Serpent, the dragon, the devil) that everything is being made ready for his arrival to 'heal the deadly wound' upon being kicked out of heaven.  (the 10 earthly kings coming to power, the world becoming more one in politics, money, education and religion (surprisingly made available by the world wide web) and when that happens it will be unlike anything ever seen before,  as Satan and his angels will have lost the war in heaven, been cast to the earth and  have arrived here with supernatural powers which will be on FULL display.  

Do we agree the two witnesses God sends will arrive a very short time before Satan and his angels and THEIR supernatural powers will be on display also?  

Do we agree that when the deadly wound is healed and the world starts to worship the 'image', that is when the world (those calling themselves Christians included) will no longer be worshipping our Lord and Saviour (because they are falling  into deception and believing when they hear other men saying 'LO HERE IS CHRIST'? and  that is the meaning of 'HOW the daily sacrifice (love to the TRUE GOD) is taken away'?  

Do we agree that Satan will come with a promise of peace and prosperity and win over the world with flatteries and wonders and signs? and that the 'death' we read about is of the 'soul' and not the physical body and that is why God tells us 

Ephesians 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

Do we agree that to buy and sell during that time will only be done by those who take the beasts (satans) mark? 

Do we agree that there will be those who DON'T believe Satan is who he claims to be and they  will be 'turned over' to powers for 10 day trials in which the Holy Spirit will speak through them and that the truths that will be spoken will open the eyes of some of those who otherwise would have fallen into deception?  And that those who are taken to these trials know that they themselves are not to speak?

What are we supposed to be doing?  What are we not supposed to be doing?  

Just in case...

 

Hello DeighAnn,

In the General discussion forum someone brought up the topic in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 where when Christ returns, He returns with those who are asleep in Him. I responded to that post, where with those who are alive on the earth upon the Lords return being caught up to Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, along with their previously demised brethren, that there then had to be a time interval between the dead in Christ being caught up and the remnant living on earth being caught up.

The next area in the Bible where we have a description of being caught up to God is in Revelation 12:5, where a woman who is experiencing travail/tribulation brings forth a man child who is caught up to God and His throne in heaven. When this being caught up to God occurs, the devil and his angels are cast out unto the earth, whereupon the devil realizing the time left to him is short, he then gives the beast his authority and power, which provides the devil another 42 months to reign.

As these remaining 42 months in which the devil, the beast, and the false prophet/the Antichrist are in power represent the great tribulation of the saints, in which the devil makes war with the remnant surviving offspring of the travailing woman (Revelation 12:17), I then see the dead in Christ who are caught up to God in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 correlating and metaphorically described as the man child in Revelation 12:5, which occurs just prior to commencing the 42 months of tribulation. The living remnant saints with whom the devil goes to make war with following his expulsion and his 42 month reign along with the beast and the false prophet/the Antichrist would then correlate and represent the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

[DeighAnn]

4 hours ago, luigi said:

In the General discussion forum someone brought up the topic in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 where when Christ returns, He returns with those who are asleep in Him. I responded to that post, where with those who are alive on the earth upon the Lords return being caught up to Christ in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, along with their previously demised brethren, that there then had to be a time interval between the dead in Christ being caught up and the remnant living on earth being caught up.

Hi Luigi,

This seems to have accounted for those who 'slept' in Christ returning with Him and those who are alive being caught up to Him which seemingly takes care of all believers.  

So my question for you is what happens to those who took the 'mark of the beast' when Christ returns?  And, if the 'dead' in Christ rise, then what happens to the 'dead' NOT in Christ?  

But skipping all that, the 'interval' you speak of, I personally haven't been given any info but I AM looking forward to it because I have been curious.  If you have any scriptures you feel speak to this 'interval',  I would be very interested to see them.  'the coming to the 1335 day' seems to be a statement of such.  I must admit I never taken the time to study those happenings because come that point in time (or ending of time), all lines have been drawn and where we go, how we get there, and all the rest will be dictated by 'and our works do follow us'.  But still if you have been given something by all means please share....

 

4 hours ago, luigi said:

The next area in the Bible where we have a description of being caught up to God is in Revelation 12:5, where a woman who is experiencing travail/tribulation brings forth a man child who is caught up to God and His throne in heaven. When this being caught up to God occurs, the devil and his angels are cast out unto the earth, whereupon the devil realizing the time left to him is short, he then gives the beast his authority and power, which provides the devil another 42 months to reign.

I am with you that Jesus became the firstfruits, first risen of the dead, 'caught up' to the right hand of the Father


but the 'WHEN that happened Satan was cast to the earth' is where our understanding of what is written seems to diverge.   Here is why I feel that way.  

Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars
 

Revelation 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.


Revelation 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
LUCIFER BECOMING SATAN

Revelation 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
SOULS to be made flesh.   SATANS BELIEF THAT KILLING CHRIST WOULD MAKE HIM WIN  (a really good example of what happens when WE BELIEVE WHAT WE WANT instead of seeing and hearing AND understanding 'what is WRITTEN')

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
SPECIFICALLY AND EXACTLY WHO THIS IS, THE LORD OF LORDS AND KING OF KINGS. 
HE WAS RESURRECTED, THE FIRST BORN OF THE DEAD

Revelation 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
AND A BIG LONG TIME PERIOD
 

Revelation 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

Revelation 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

KICKED TO EARTH


"whereupon the devil realizing the time left to him is short, he then gives the beast his authority and power, which provides the devil another 42 months to reign"
Not sure how to address that...


 

4 hours ago, luigi said:

As these remaining 42 months in which the devil, the beast, and the false prophet/the Antichrist are in power represent the great tribulation of the saints, in which the devil makes war with the remnant surviving offspring of the travailing woman (Revelation 12:17), I then see the dead in Christ who are caught up to God in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 correlating and metaphorically described as the man child in Revelation 12:5, which occurs just prior to commencing the 42 months of tribulation. The living remnant saints with whom the devil goes to make war with following his expulsion and his 42 month reign along with the beast and the false prophet/the Antichrist would then correlate and represent the saints in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Here is Paul, teaching US things that are important to God, telling us GOD Himself is teaching us,  and loving one another is super important on our walk
1 Thessalonians 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.

Here Paul is telling US OUR city may be doing GREAT but really need to keep reaching out FURTHER, don't stop once we have gotten our close 'family' set, the info needs to keep being spread
1 Thessalonians 4:10 And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;

Here Paul is sharing what is required for a good walk in the Lord
1 Thessalonians 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;

Here Paul is expanding upon that
1 Thessalonians 4:12 That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.

Here Paul is even teaching US 
'HOW WE ARE to look upon those of our family whos' FLESH BODIES have quit aka NO LONGER have any breath in them
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
DON'T BE UNLEARNED LIKE THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW OF THE ONE TRUE GOD AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST

CONCERNING 'DEATH' OF THE FLESH    BECAUSE

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For if WE BELIEVE that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

WE BELIEVE THAT WITH THE RESURRECTION OF CHRIST,

what once was REIGNING over us aka 'death/sleep aka in the grave aka waiting for a last day, 

CHANGED and we are even told He has gone on to prepare a place FOR US to be where He is.  HE PROVED THAT THERE IS NO LONGER ANY 'STAYING' IN THE GRAVE BY ALL THE GRAVES THAT OPENED and once dead HELD CAPTIVE released and ASCENDING after the FIRST FRUIT himself did He
1 MADE IT POSSIBLE
2 PAVED THE WAY
3 Took away the POWER OF DEATH FOREVER - death where is thy sting? 

(if only Satan had READ 'what was written' WITH UNDERSTANDING, he would have known that the death of Christ would be his death sentence AND loss of the power he once had over death itself.  
if the Jews had read WITH UNDERSTANDING 'what was written' they would not have allowed the synagogue of Satan to take hold and would have then been able to recognize the Messiah. 
and if we TODAY don't keep making the same mistakes they were making...
we might just 'kindle a fire' for Christs return).

Remember Christ FINISHED his work of SALVATION,
hence it is NOT POSSIBLE for Christ
1  to leave the right hand of God 
2  to return to 'the suffering servant bringing Salvation role' that was finished to SAVE anyone from the Great Tribulation that shall upon the whole world.  He  is sitting in POWER awaiting His return as Lord of lords and King of kings to RULE with a rod of Iron.  
3)  we know He hasn't returned because not all kingdoms are living under His rules.   

Here Paul tells us BY THE WORD OF THE LORD
1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord
that we which are alive and remain
unto the coming of the Lord
shall not prevent them which are asleep

NO ONE IS WAITING IN A GRAVE in the earth asleep anymore.  Not for a last day.  Not until everyone is dead.  Not until Christ returns.  To be absent from the body is to be with the Lord.  

WHAT HAPPENS TO THOSE WHO 'SLEEP/DIE'?  THEY RESURRECT, JESUS WAS THE FIRST OF ALL THEM THAT SLEPT. 

ONCE HE WAS 'RISEN' FROM 'SLEEP/DEATH', DEATH lost it's sting, power over us.

(My description
it's like GOD had to change the 'THE LAWs OF GRAVITY' for the dead.   
When Christ was first 'asleep/dead' and buried that was the law in which He went into the tomb.  NO ONE HAD EVER RISEN BEFORE.  

BUT for Christ to RISE, that law had to be changed. And ONCE IT WAS, it then applied to all the dead.    

CHRIST THE FIRST BORN, OF THEM THAT SLEPT. 

Now the 'Law of Gravity for the dead' means rising.  TO one side of the gulf or the other.  
Please don't take that as the FINAL/deepest truth to be had, there is ALWAYS more, remain open) 

Here Paul is teaching us something ELSE, having just covered very completely what happens when we die.  When Christ returns there will be 'no dead flesh bodies holding souls in a sleep state in the earth'  those who have died are RETURNING WITH HIM. 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God

I HAVE heard and I don't disagree completely with this is just once again saying we die we rise, 
and the dead in Christ shall rise first

BUT what I and I ALONE believe is

that this 'DEAD' spoken of here

are the JUST GOT/dropped DEADS BY THE shout and voice of the archangel and BRIGHTNESS OF CHRISTS RETURN

1) because nothing else comes close to telling us what happens to those who have taken the mark of the beast 
2) those with the mark can't 'skip' their first death (need a first for a second)
3)  those with the mark can't be a part of the 'alive and remain and changed' because that group is 'to be ever with the Lord' and not all of them will be
4) because they can't be changed they have to die and resurrect before the ones changed.  

that word "IN" may fall under "or is equivalent to in things pertaining to Christ, in the cause of Christ"

1  Thessalonians 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1  Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

So it is clear to see that we die and rise and return WITH HIM


Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENS WHEN 'ANGELS' ARE NOT born from above? not born of water?  not born of the spirit?  come to earth on their own? many verses that tell us.  They are MIGHTY in strength, knowledge, evil.  They seduce women, they bring A KNOWLEDGE that flesh man does not possess, wickedness runs rampant.  (BUT THIS TIME, not going to have to worry about any GIANTS being born of women who did't keep their heads covered  by the taking and giving in marriage, mixing with strange flesh, as the 'time was shortened' or else no flesh would be saved, NOT MUCH DIFFERENT THAN THE DAYS OF NOAH)


Revelation 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
 
Agree with any of it?  Disagree?  
Keeping 'em short, maybe not this one so much.  When inspired....D