Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[enoob57]

16 minutes ago, BornAgain490 said:

No, not necessarily.

But I do believe God has only one plan of redemption, there is only one gospel, only one people (the total sum of all faithful Gentiles and all faithful Jews), only one eternal destiny for His people, only one second coming (no secret rapture), only one resurrection of all the faithful that have died, only one resurrection for all unbelievers, and only one bride (the body of Christ). 

That is what the Bible teaches. 

You have just violated the rule of Scripture
2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

Scripture allows grouping of people groups into one group called the Church -'The Bride of Christ' but gentile, Jew, Church are three distinct groups all the way up and to the eternal state... to blur this reality would be to get to where you are confused to say the least of Biblical hermeneutics...

Quote

only one resurrection of all the faithful that have died

You are aware of Biblical resurrections of individuals, groups at crucifixion, Christ etc.

So, blanket statements that you throw out -such as above ...this detracts from any serious consideration from scholarship... 'the study to shew yourself approved'

[BornAgain490]

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

rightly dividing the word of truth.

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

study to shew yourself approved'

I study to show myself approved unto God, not unto the man-made theological system called dispensationalism. 

 

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

gentile, Jew, Church are three distinct groups

Read 1 Corinthians 10:32 in context.  Paul is telling the church at Corinth to treat all people with respect with regard to food and drink. 

Look at 1 Corinthians 1: where Paul says it doesn't matter what the Jew is looking for or what the Greek is looking for, WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED TO ALL.  

Rightly dividing means to handle God's word correctly. It does not mean we are to cut it into sections for different people groups. 

 

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

gentile, Jew, Church are three distinct groups

Let me ask you these:  Does a lost Jew and a lost Gentile go to the same place when they die is their sin?

 

1 hour ago, enoob57 said:

You are aware of Biblical resurrections of individuals, groups at crucifixion, Christ etc.

I was referring to the end of days resurrection of the saints, and the millennial resurrection of unbelievers. 

[Retrobyter]

17 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Thsnk you for your reply, brother.

I agree we should interpret scripture literally where it is meant to be understood literally, historically where historical, poetically where poetic, figuratively and symbolically where figurative and symbolic, etc.  Therein lies the great debate over Revelation: how should it be interpreted? 

Shalom, @BornAgain490.

The answer to that is to treat it as one would any of God's prophecies: While God does use symbolism and figurative speech in prophecy, the main thrust of prophecy is to foreshadow LITERALLY what will happen in the future. The key is to know WHEN that prophecy is fulfilled and to RECOGNIZE when it is fulfilled. Much of the prophecy given to Daniel by God's messengers has already been fulfilled.

Also, many of the individual prophecies given about the Messiah have already been fulfilled in His First Coming - His First Advent, but not all! This is what Yochanan the Immerser (John the Baptist) noticed. That's why he asked Yeeshuwa` "Art thou He that shall come or do we look for another?" He was asking, "Are you coming back? OR should I look for another after you?" He was not doubting, as some teach, but he himself was a teacher and had students he needed to instruct in the truth; so, he was getting clarity about the future. At that time, he had no idea about his own future. What Yeeshuwa` showed him (through his students sent to Him) was that He was the One who fulfilled the prophecies KNOWN to be about the future Messiah, thus confirming that HE would be "coming back!" So, years before Paul wrote a thing, He knew that Yeeshuwa` though slated to die soon, would still be the One to fulfill all of the prophecies concerning Him! He was taught that He would RISE AGAIN! Thus, although Yochanan died before Yeeshuwa` did, he died with the knowledge of "the Resurrection and the Life!"

17 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

That said, I am not married to any one system of interpretation, but employ each where it seems logically appropriate. 

I don't see the second coming of Jesus Christ and the gathering of His faithful as two events, certainly not a secret event as pretrib posits.  It is a single event in the end when Jesus descends from heaven in like manner as when He ascended, i.e., in clouds, and the faithful that have died will be resurrected and the living faithful will be changed, and we will all meet the Lord as He descends, and we will accompany Him on His descent.  

Yeah, it took me a long while to realize the same thing about His Second Coming (or Second Advent). I was raised on pretrib, and there always seemed to be too little information about such a separate event. Then, I learned from the OT prophecies about His MISSION when He returns - to RESCUE His people - those who were His blood relatives, and it didn't make sense anymore. What clinched it for me was His OWN words in Matthew 23:37-39:

Matthew 23:37-39 (KJV)

37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, [thou] that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under [her] wings, and ye would not! 38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. 39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, 'Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord!' (Psalm 118:26)"

And, it was the rest of Psalm 118:26 that convinced me that a Temple must exist first:

Psalm 118:26 (KJV)

26 Blessed be he that cometh in the name of the LORD: we have blessed you out of the house of the LORD.

The "House of the LORD" (בֵּית יְהוָה = beeyt YHWH) was how they would refer to the Temple in Hebrew. But, He said they wouldn't see Him again, until they could WELCOME Him! "Baruwkh haba'" in the plural "Baruwkhiym haba'iym" is seen in the plural at all the airports and seaports in Israel:

17 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Once He has descended, Jesus will rule and reign from Jerusalem, but He will reclaim from the prince of the power of the air the entire earth,  wherein His faithful, the Israel of God (all faithful Jews and faithful Gentiles), will rule and reign with Jesus as King. 

Yes, but this will take time. It will take a thousand years to fulfill.

17 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Let me just say this: eschatalogical views are as varied as the flavors of Tillamook Ice Cream. It's something in which I was once dogmatic, but now am open to the various viewpoints. 

Blessings. 

 

 

[Retrobyter]

On 11/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, missmuffet said:

There is also nothing in the Bible that says " Holy Trinity" but by God's

Words we know it is true.

So you do not believe in dispensationalism?

Dispensationalists believe that the Bible should be interpreted literally, and that it provides the framework for understanding history.

You do not believe that the Bible should be interpreted

literally? And that it provides the framework of understanding

history?

Shalom, @missmuffet.

Pardon me, but one should also learn that dispensationalism says that God worked with people differently in the various dispensations throughout history.

Dispensationalism teaches that there are seven primary dispensations:

Google gives us ...

In dispensationalism, the seven dispensations are:

Innocence: Genesis 1:1—3:7
Conscience: Genesis 3:8—8:22
Human Government: Genesis 9:1—11:32
Promise: Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25
Law: Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4
Grace: Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3
Millennial Kingdom: Revelation 20:4–6 

Dispensationalism is a theological system that organizes the Bible into these dispensations, or administrations. Dispensations are ways in which God relates to humanity, and each one includes a pattern of: a responsibility, a failure, a judgment, and grace to move on.

Dispensationalists believe that God deals with humanity differently in each dispensation, based on revelation specific to that period. They also believe that God will focus His attention on Israel again in the future, as He does on the Church in the present.

This concept is a problem. One may see that God worked with people - justifying them - the same way in EVERY "dispensation" down through time!  They were ALL "saved" by God's grace, through their faith in Him, and by blood, at least representing the Messiah's blood, if not His actual blood, provided in the Sacrifice He became on the cross.

Therefore, I do not consider myself a dispensationalist anymore, although I was raised to be one. We didn't consider ourselves "ultra dispensationalist" at the time, but we DID hold to the concept of God working with people differently, say between the Dispensation of Law, and the Dispensation of Grace.

However, we learn from Paul, that people were NOT "saved" differently before Christ came than after, for the Law was a SCHOOLMASTER - a TEACHER - to instruct those who kept it to understand that the LAW could NOT "save" them! They still had to come to God by faith for His grace, with blood to pave the way, just as Abraham did and just as David did.

Furthermore, both groups, referred to as "Israel" and "the Church," are absorbed into God's Kingdom, reigned over by His choice for King - His Messiah, Yeeshuwa`, the Son of God.

Having said that though, it's important also to note that He is NOT NOW currently reigning, for He shall reign upon the earth, and He will reign over the nations of the earth. His FATHER handles all other matters with His Creation.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider ourselves those who will be His subjects, but we are not CURRENTLY subjects, even if we are part of the Elect TO BECOME His subjects, and we should remain loyal - faithful - to Him as our FUTURE King.

[BornAgain490]

53 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

it's important also to note that He is NOT NOW currently reigning

Very well said, @Retrobyter, but I do have to disagree with the statement above. 

The Bible says that Jesus, who is God manifested in the flesh and creator of all things (John 1:1-3), made clear that He has a kingdom that is not of this world (John 18:36), and also that all power is given unto Him in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18).   It is, therefore, irreconcilable to suggest that Jesus is not reigning over His kingdom right now, and has been for nearly 2,000 years.   

I like how our brother in Christ, David J. Riggs, explains it: that Jesus Christ is reigning now. 

"CHRIST IS REIGNING NOW

By David J. Riggs

"God promised David that He would set one of his descendants upon his throne (2 Sam. 7:12-14). God said that He would "establish the throne of his kingdom forever." (Vs. 13). Thus, when the descendant of David was on his throne, he would be on the throne of his kingdom, reigning over his kingdom. The same promise was repeated by Isaiah (Isa. 9:6-7) and he likewise made it clear that when this one would be "upon the throne of David," he would also be "over His kingdom." The one who would be reigning upon the throne of David would be at the same time reigning over his kingdom.
 

Jesus Christ was promised the throne of David (Luke 1:31-33) and was raised to sit on it (Acts 2:29-31). Jesus sat down on the throne after He ascended into heaven (Heb. 8:1; Rev. 3:21). We must conclude, therefore, that when Christ ascended, He sat down on the throne and began reigning over the kingdom.
 

Christ would be a priest at the same time He sat and ruled upon His throne (Zech. 6:12-13). He became the high priest when He sat down on the right hand of God (Heb. 8:1; 10:11-12). Furthermore, Christ was to receive the kingdom when He received dominion and glory (Dan. 7:13-14). He received dominion and glory when He went into heaven and was placed on the right hand of God (1 Pet. 3:22; Luke 24:26; 1 Tim. 3:16; 1 Pet. 1:21). Christ, therefore, began His reign over His kingdom when He ascended back to the Father and sat down on the throne.
 

Daniel saw a vision of the Christ coming in the clouds to the Ancient of days and there was given to Him dominion, glory, and a kingdom (Dan. 7:13-14). In one of His parables, Jesus said, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return." (Luke 19:12). Thus, Jesus went in the clouds of heaven (his ascension) to a far country (heaven) and came to the Ancient of days (the Father) and received the dominion, kingdom, and glory and will return (the second coming) to render to everyone according to their works.
 

Some think that Christ could not have begun His reign after His ascension because He did not put down the wicked kingdoms. However, Christ hasn't yet conquered His enemies because the day of His wrath hasn't yet come (Psalm 110:1-5; see also Psalm 2:7-12). Paul confirms that Psalms 2 refers to the reign of Christ - Acts 13:31-33. All those who do not willingly serve Christ are considered His enemies and He will pour out His wrath on them at His second coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9).
 

Now is the accepted time to take refuge in Christ for there is a great day of wrath coming (Rom. 2:5). Christ will continue to reign until His enemies are subdued. "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet." (1 Cor. 15:25). "...But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool." (Heb. 10:12-13)."

I pray this blesses you 🙏 

[Retrobyter]

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Very well said, @Retrobyter, but I do have to disagree with the statement above. 

The Bible says that Jesus, who is God manifested in the flesh and creator of all things (John 1:1-3), made clear that He has a kingdom that is not of this world (John 18:36), and also that all power is given unto Him in heaven and in earth (Matthew 28:18).   

Shalom, @BornAgain490.

Well, within these few verses, one can build a nice, neat fanstasy world. But this is NOT what He said! First, John 1:1-3 is talking about "the WORD of God" who is God and was the Creator of all things. But, John 1:14 tells us that "the Word was MADE FLESH" and dwelt among us. That human being "made flesh" was named "Yeeshuwa`" by the messenger for "He-shall-save/deliver/rescue" His people from their sins. This is NOT an "incarnation" where God was put "INTO FLESH" (which is what the word "incarnate" means) but He was MADE FLESH. That's an important distinction!

Second, what He said in John 18:36 was that His kingdom is not of this WORLD-SYSTEM! He was NOT saying it was not of the earth! That is also of primary importance! Here's the whole exchange:

John 18:33-38 (KJV)

33 Then Pilate entered into the judgment hall again, and called Jesus, and said unto him,

"Art thou the King of the Jews?"

34 Jesus answered him,

"Sayest thou this thing of thyself, or did others tell it thee of me?"

35 Pilate answered,

"Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests have delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done?"

36 Jesus answered,

"My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

37 Pilate therefore said unto him,

"Art thou a king then?"

Jesus answered,

"Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice."

38 Pilate saith unto him,

"What is 'truth'?"

And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them,

"I find in him no fault [at all]."

And, here is the Greek of verse 36:

18:36   ἀπεκρίθη ὁ Ἰησοῦς Ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμὴ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου· εἰ ἐκ τοῦ κόσμου τούτου ἦν ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμή οἱ ὑπηρέται ἄν οἱ ἐμοὶ ἠγωνίζοντο ἵνα μὴ παραδοθῶ τοῖς Ἰουδαίοις· νῦν δὲ ἡ βασιλεία ἡ ἐμὴ οὐκ ἔστιν ἐντεῦθεν

This transliterates to ...

18:36  Apekrithee ho Ieesous, "Hee basileia hee emee ouk estin ek tou kosmou toutou; ei ek tou kosmou een hee basileia hee emee hoi hupeeretai an hoi emoi eegoonizonto hina mee paradothoo tois Ioudaiois; nun de hee basileia hee emee ouk estin enteuthen." 

This translates word-for-word into ...

18:36  Answered the Yeeshuwa`, "The kingdom the-one of-me not is from the world-system this-one; if from the world-system it-was the kingdom the-one of-me the- attendants/subjects should the-ones of-me fight so-that not I-might-be-betrayed to-the Jews; now but the kingdom the-one of-me not is from-this-place."

He was saying that His Kingdom is not of this TYPE where His subjects would need to fight for their king as would those in other kingdoms. He was NOT suggesting that it belonged in a different place or realm! He was announced as "the King of the Jews" at His birth, and the epitaph above His head on the cross was the same: "This is Yeeshuwa` of Nazareth, the King of the Jews!"

As far as Matthew 28:18 is concerned, look at the Greek there, as well:

28:18   καὶ προσελθὼν ὁ Ἰησοῦς ἐλάλησεν αὐτοῖς λέγων, Ἐδόθη μοι πᾶσα ἐξουσία ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ γῆς

28:18  Kai proselthoon ho Ieesous elaleesen autois legoon, "Edothee moi pasa exousia en ouranoo kai epi gees."

28:18  And came the Yeeshuwa` speaking to-them saying, "Is-given to-me all authority in sky and upon earth."

That which is called "heaven" is NOT what it has degenerated to today, namely "Heaven," as though it referred to "God's abode!" To the contrary, God has NO "abode" as such; He is OMNIPRESENT!  The Greek word "οὐρανός," or "ouranos," simply means THE "SKY." That refers to the atmosphere around our planet Earth, and the things we see in and through that atmosphere:

G3772 οὐρανός ouranós, oo-ran-os'; perhaps from the same as G3735 (through the idea of elevation); the sky; by extension, heaven (as the abode of God); by implication, happiness, power, eternity; specially, the Gospel (Christianity):
—air, heaven(-ly), sky.

Yeeshuwa` used it this way:

Matthew 16:1-4 (KJV)

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven (Greek: ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = ek tou ouranou = "from the sky"). 2 He answered and said unto them,

"When it is evening, ye say, '[It will be] fair weather': for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = ho ouranos = "the sky") is red. 3 And in the morning, '[It will be] foul weather to day': for the sky (Greek: ὁ οὐρανός = ho ouranos = "the sky") is red and lowring. O [ye] hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky (Greek: τὸ ... πρόσωπον τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = to ... prosoopon tou ouranou = "the surface of-the sky"); but can ye not [discern] the signs of the times?! 4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas!"

And he left them, and departed.

The Pharisees and Sadducees could try to use the word as it is used today, but not Yeeshuwa`! He used the SAME WORD they just used to say, "Red sky at night, sailors delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning."

Paul had another word that he would use for the things above the atmosphere, it was translated as "heavenly" or as "celestial," the word "ἐπουράνιος" or "epouranios," meaning "of/from-above-the-sky/atmosphere."  He used it in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41:

1 Corinthians 15:40-41 (KJV)

40 [There are] also celestial bodies (Greek: σώματα ἐπουράνια = soomata epourania = "bodies above-the-sky"), and bodies terrestrial (Greek: σώματα ἐπίγεια = soomata epigeia = "bodies above/upon-the-earth"): but the glory of the celestial [is] one, and the [glory] of the terrestrial [is] another. 41 [There is] one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for [one] star differeth from [another] star in glory. 

That's the ONLY word translated as "heavenly" that could come close to an "abode of God," and it's just talking about what we call "the vacuum of outer space!"

It's also where the New Jerusalem is currently to be found, according ot the author of Hebrews:

Hebrews 12:22 (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem (Greek: Ἰερουσαλὴμ ἐπουρανίῳ = Ierousaleem epouranioo = "Jerusalem above-the-sky"), and to an innumerable company of angels, ...

And, we learn from John that this city will descend to the New Earth:

Revelation 21:1-2 (KJV)

1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven (Greek: Ἰερουσαλὴμ καινὴν καταβαίνουσαν ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ ἐκ τοῦ οὐρανοῦ = Ierousaleem kaineen katabainousan apo tou Theou ek tou ouranou = "Jerusalem new coming-down away-from the God out of-the sky"), prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

He did NOT say "out of above-the-sky" but rather "out of-the-sky!" And, since there's no region between the atmosphere and the earth, this means that it LANDS!

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

It is, therefore, irreconcilable to suggest that Jesus is not reigning over His kingdom right now, and has been for nearly 2,000 years.

I like how our brother in Christ, David J. Riggs, explains it: that Jesus Christ is reigning now. 

"CHRIST IS REIGNING NOW

By David J. Riggs

"God promised David that He would set one of his descendants upon his throne (2 Sam. 7:12-14).

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

God said that He would "establish the throne of his kingdom forever." (Vs. 13).

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Thus, when the descendant of David was on his throne, he would be on the throne of his kingdom, reigning over his kingdom.

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

The same promise was repeated by Isaiah (Isa. 9:6-7) and he likewise made it clear that when this one would be "upon the throne of David," he would also be "over His kingdom." The one who would be reigning upon the throne of David would be at the same time reigning over his kingdom.

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Jesus Christ was promised the throne of David (Luke 1:31-33) and was raised to sit on it (Acts 2:29-31).

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Jesus sat down on the throne after He ascended into heaven (Heb. 8:1; Rev. 3:21). We must conclude, therefore, that when Christ ascended, He sat down on the throne and began reigning over the kingdom.

FALSE!

Hebrews 8:1-6 (KJV)

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens; 2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. 3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer. 4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: 5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for,

"See," saith he, "that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount." (Exodus 25:40)

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Verse 1 does NOT say that "He is currently reigning!" It says He is currently serving as HIGH PRIEST, offering His own blood upon the altar, instead of animal sacrifices!

Read it carefully: He is "set ON THE RIGHT HAND (THE RIGHT HAND SIDE) of the throne of the Majesty," the "Majesty" being God His Father, who is "His Majesty," the King! He is not set UPON it! Also, the words "in the heavens" are the Greek words "ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς" or "en tois ouranois," meaning "in the skies."

Revelation 3:21 is a SUBSET of what was written to the seven churches in Asia Minor (today called "Turkey"). This began in chapter 1:

Revelation 1:9-20 (KJV)

9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, 11 Saying,

"I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last":

and,

"What thou seest, write in a book, and send [it] unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea."

12 And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks [one] like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle. 14 His head and [his] hairs [were] white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes [were] as a flame of fire; 15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. 16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance [was] as the sun shineth in his strength. 17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me,

"Fear not; I am the first and the last: 18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. 19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; 20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."

As is true for EVERY prophecy, this is a VISION OF THE FUTURE!

So, when we get to His address to the messenger to Laodikeia ("Laodicea"), probably it's "pastor," we are seeing Him as ALREADY REIGNING!

John has seen this BEFORE!

Matthew 16:28-17:2 (KJV)

28 "Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not tasteof death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

Mark 9:1-3 (KJV)

1 And he said unto them,

"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power."

2 And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.

Luke 9:27-29 (KJV)

27 "But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God."

28 And it came to pass about an eight days after these sayings, he took Peter and John and James, and went up into a mountain to pray. 29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment [was] white [and] glistering.

So, this doesn't prove that His Kingdom is in "Heaven"; it proves that John was already seeing Him in His future Kingdom, which we've already been told begins when the Messiah returns!

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Christ would be a priest at the same time He sat and ruled upon His throne (Zech. 6:12-13).

Correct, but note: He is already "UPON HIS THRONE" which happens after He has returned!

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

He became the high priest when He sat down on the right hand of God (Heb. 8:1; 10:11-12).

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Furthermore, Christ was to receive the kingdom when He received dominion and glory (Dan. 7:13-14). He received dominion and glory when He went into heaven and was placed on the right hand of God (1 Pet. 3:22; Luke 24:26; 1 Tim. 3:16; 1 Pet. 1:21). Christ, therefore, began His reign over His kingdom when He ascended back to the Father and sat down on the throne.

FALSE! He has drawn the wrong conclusion from these verses! Yeeshuwa` sits upon His throne WHEN HE RETURNS!

Daniel 7:13-14 (KJV)

13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, [one] like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion [is] an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom [that] which shall not be destroyed.

Notice the TIMING: He "CAME with the clouds of the sky!" (The Aramaic word "שְׁמַיִן" or "shaamayin," which is a dialect of Hebrew where the word is "שָׁמַיִם" or "shaamayim," is a dual word that refers to the sky. It's dual because there's a daytime sky and there's a nighttime sky. For things ABOVE the sky, the phrase "וּשְׁמֵי הַשָּׁמַיִם" or "uwshmeey hashaamayim" was used, translated as "and the heaven of heavens," as in 2 Chronicles 6:18:

18 "But will God in very deed dwell with men on the earth? behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house which I have built!"

(Note: This is in red because Shlomoh or "Solomon" was the Anointed of the LORD for his time, a Maashiyach, a Messiah, a Christos, a Christ of YHWH God.)

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Daniel saw a vision of the Christ coming in the clouds to the Ancient of days and there was given to Him dominion, glory, and a kingdom (Dan. 7:13-14).

WRONG DIRECTION! He "comes" BACK TO EARTH "with clouds!" And, He comes BACK TO EARTH to "sit upon His father David's throne!" (Luke 1:30-33; 19:11-15).

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

In one of His parables, Jesus said, "A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom and to return." (Luke 19:12). Thus, Jesus went in the clouds of heaven (his ascension) to a far country (heaven) and came to the Ancient of days (the Father) and received the dominion, kingdom, and glory and will return (the second coming) to render to everyone according to their works.

See what I mean?! It's the WRONG DIRECTION! He is RETURNING. Acts 1:9 said "A CLOUD" (singular) received him! No, this "with clouds" is His DESCENDING, not ascending!

He comes to the Ancient of Days IN HIS TEMPLE, which will have been rebuilt, since we're told that it will be present when they welcome Him back as the LORD'S Messiah! (Matthew 23:39 cf. Psalm 118:26).

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Some think that Christ could not have begun His reign after His ascension because He did not put down the wicked kingdoms.

This is not quite right. Christ begins His reign TO PUT DOWN the wicked kingdoms!

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

However, Christ hasn't yet conquered His enemies because the day of His wrath hasn't yet come (Psalm 110:1-5; see also Psalm 2:7-12).

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Paul confirms that Psalms 2 refers to the reign of Christ - Acts 13:31-33.

True, but this verse is merely the foreshadowing of events, heralding the eventual Psalm 2 account, which will happen AFTER the Messiah is reigning from Jerusalem.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

All those who do not willingly serve Christ are considered His enemies and He will pour out His wrath on them at His second coming (2 Thess. 1:7-9).

Correct.

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

Now is the accepted time to take refuge in Christ for there is a great day of wrath coming (Rom. 2:5). Christ will continue to reign until His enemies are subdued. "For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet." (1 Cor. 15:25).

Let's "drop the other shoe," shall we? Read the WHOLE of 1 Cor. 15:20-28: Speaking of the resurrections, Paul said,

1 Corinthians 15:20-28 (KJV)

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits (singular) of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order:

(0) Christ the firstfruits;
(1) afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 
24 (2) Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 

25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For "he hath put all things under his feet."

[But when he saith, "all things are put under him," it is manifest that "he" (God the Father) is excepted, which did "put all things under him (the Christ, the Messiah, the Son of God)."]

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God) that put all things under him (the Son), that God may be all in all.

Thus, this happens AFTER "his coming" and before "the end."

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

"...But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool." (Heb. 10:12-13)."

Hebrews 10:12-13 gives us this in the Greek:

10:12 αὗτος δὲ μίαν ὑπὲρ ἁμαρτιῶν προσενέγκας θυσίαν εἰς τὸ διηνεκὲς ἐκάθισεν ἐν δεξιᾷ τοῦ θεοῦ
10:13 τὸ λοιπὸν ἐκδεχόμενος ἕως τεθῶσιν οἱ ἐχθροὶ αὐτοῦ ὑποπόδιον τῶν ποδῶν αὐτοῦ

This is transliterated as ...

10:12 autos de mian huper hamartioon prosenegkas thusian eis to dieenekes ekathisen en dexia tou Theou
10:13 to loipon ekdechomenos heoos tethoosin hoi echthroi autou hupopodion toon podoon autou.

A word-for-word translation into English is ...

10:12 This-one but one over sins he-had-offered sacrifice into the continuously he-sat-down in/on right-hand of-the God
10:13 the rest waiting-for until be-made the hostile-enemies of-him a-footstool of-the feet of-him.

And, rearranged in English word order, we get ...

10:12-13 But this-One, [after] He-had-offered one sacrifice over sins into the continuously, He-sat-down on [the] right-hand [side] of the God, waiting for the rest until His hostile-enemies be-made a-footstool of-His feet.

Note: It does NOT say that He is already PUTTING His feet on that footstool! He's waiting for His "footstool" to be constructed out of His enemies!

2 hours ago, BornAgain490 said:

I pray this blesses you 🙏 

It really doesn't bless me, for "bless," coming from "bliss," means to make one HAPPY. It actually saddens me and even angers me to hear that someone who knows so much about the Davidic Covenant could be SO WRONG!

I will not attack the person - this brother, David J. Riggs - but this interpretation of Scripture is DEAD WRONG!

***

I've said it before, and I'll risk saying it again: If Christ is reigning now, then He is the WEAKEST KING THERE HAS EVER BEEN IN HISTORY!

***

That's not true, of course, but it's because He is NOT "now reigning!" He doesn't begin His reign until He returns! As He already said, 

Matthew 25:31 (KJV)

31 "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, THEN shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:"

He also gave this parable in Luke 19:

Luke 19:11-27 (KJV)

11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. 12 He said therefore,

"A certain nobleman (talking about Himself) went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. 13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them,

"'Occupy (Trade with this) till I come.'

14 "But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying,

"'We will not have THIS [man] to reign over us!'

15 "And it came to pass, that WHEN HE WAS RETURNED, HAVING RECEIVED THE KINGDOM, THEN HE COMMANDED these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. 16 Then came the first, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.'

17 "And he said unto him,

"'Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.'

18 "And the second came, saying,

"'Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.'

19 "And he said likewise to him,

"'Be thou also over five cities.'

(By the way, this is how we shall "reign with Him a thousand years.")

20 "And another came, saying,

"'Lord, behold, [here is] thy pound, which I have kept laid up in a napkin: 21 For I feared thee, because thou art an austere man: thou takest up that thou layedst not down, and reapest that thou didst not sow.'

22 "And he saith unto him,

"'Out of thine own mouth will I judge thee, [thou] wicked servant. Thou knewest that I was "an austere man, taking up that I laid not down, and reaping that I did not sow": 23 Wherefore then gavest not thou my money into the bank, that at my coming I might have required mine own with usury (interest)?'

24 "And he said unto them that stood by,

"'Take from him the pound, and give [it] to him that hath ten pounds.'

25 "(And they said unto him,

"'Lord, he HATH ten pounds (already)!')

26 "'For I say unto you, That unto every one which hath shall be given; and from him that hath not, even that he hath shall be taken away from him. 27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me!' "

(Question: How often do you hear a sermon about this last verse?!)

This shows us WHEN and HOW He shall reign! He begins His reign AFTER His Second Coming! These are the MESSIAH'S WORDS!

Sorry this is so long, but you deserve to have the whole argument; so, you can form your opinion based on the facts.

[BornAgain490]

1 hour ago, Retrobyter said:

John 1:1-3 is talking about "the WORD of God" who is God and was the Creator of all things. But, John 1:14 tells us that "the Word was MADE FLESH" and dwelt among us. That human being "made flesh" was named "Yeeshuwa`" by the messenger for "He-shall-save/deliver/rescue" His people from their sins. This is NOT an "incarnation" where God was put "INTO FLESH"

Thank you for your thorough reply, @Retrobyter.

I am only going to address your claim that Jesus is not God in flesh.

In Colossians 1, Paul writes under inspiration of God that Jesus Christ is "the image of the invisible God, the preeminent of every creature: by whom were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones or dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by him, and for him."

John writes under inspiration of God that Jesus is the Word, that the Word is God, that the Word created all things, and that the Word became flesh and dwelt anong us.  (John 1:1-14).

Paul's inspired statement about Jesus in Colossians 1 agrees with John's inspired statement about Jesus in John 1.

Both inspired statements agree that Jesus is God manifest in flesh.

I believe in the incarnation: that Jesus Christ is God manifest in flesh. 

When God in Genesis 3:15 promised the seed of the woman would crush the head of the serpent (Satan), God fulfilled that promise by leaving His rightful place and taking on flesh, becoming the Seed in order to reconcile sinful man to Himself. That Seed was Jesus Christ. 

Thanks. 

 

Edited November 28, 2024 by BornAgain490

[EddieM]

On 11/18/2024 at 10:26 AM, The Light said:

The pretrib rapture will be secret. Yes, there will be millions of people missing but we have those aliens to account for that.

If the aliens take those at the pre trib Rapture, then it obviously can't be a secret because we can explain where the Christians went (with the aliens).

[Jedi4Yahweh]

I guess if you could label me I would be Pre-Wraith which is somewhat similar to Post-Trib with some small differences.  

Edited December 3, 2024 by Jedi4Yahweh

[WilliamL]

On 12/3/2024 at 10:20 AM, Jedi4Yahweh said:

I guess if you could label me I would be Pre-Wraith which is somewhat similar to Post-Trib with some small differences.  

Pre-Wraith, eh?  Just before the wraiths come out to defile the earth. I like it!

Sounds like Revelation 9.