Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

9 hours ago, Retrobyter said:

Indeed, the opening of the Fifth Seal is part of that Resurrection:

Rev 6:11- it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ

Rev 11:18- and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead

[Uriah]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

It's a matter of 'When?

Check out my reply to Retrobyter.

John 5:28.29- the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Edited May 16, 2022 by Uriah
add a verse

[transmogrified]

4 hours ago, Diaste said:

There's no collision. 

It's a matter of 'When?' The scripture isn't exactly clear on that point.

When does the resurrection of the wicked take place? At the end of this age:

Quote

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

 

 When does the resurrection of the righteous take place? At the end of this age:

Quote

Then (at the same time the wicked are burned in the fire) shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

When are the wicked resurrected? At the same time the righteous shine forth..both at the end of this age, the righteous are not resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, but at the Second Coming...the Second Coming is not the end of the next age, nor is the end of the 1000 years when the righteous are resurrected. 

Blessings to you- Gary

Edited May 16, 2022 by transmogrified

[Retrobyter]

4 hours ago, transmogrified said:

The end of THIS AGE is not the same as the end of the NEXT AGE...it says the tares are burned at the end of THIS AGE...at the same time the wheat is judged. It cannot be that the END of this age is at the Second Coming and also be the END of the age 1000 years later...this is nonsense. 

 

Blessings to you- Gary

Shalom, my brother, Gary.

Peace to you! There is NO END to the next age! Kefa ("Cephas," or "Peter") showed there are only THREE ages revealed to us,

1. the heavens and the earth before the Flood,
2. the heavens and the earth which are now, doomed to the Fire,
3. and the heavens and the earth in which righteousness will dwell.

It's important to understand that the Millennium - the 1,000 years in which haSatan is locked up - is the LAST 1,000 years of this age! It is also the FIRST 1,000 years of the eternal reign of the Messiah Yeshua`. The end of the Millennium doesn't exactly align with the end of the Age, but it is very close; haSatan is given a short season in which to gather his armies against the LORD and against His Anointed, but it will be short-lived. They will come against the camp of the LORD, and they shall be summarily defeated by the fire that falls from the sky.

Another important thing to understand is that, whiile there are yet coming two general resurrections - one at the Second Coming of Yeshua` the Messiah of God, and one at the end of the Age shortly following the end of the Millennium, there shall be thousands, perhaps millions, of individual resurrections throughout the First 1,000 years of the reign of the Messiah Yeshua`. Some will be brought back to life by Yeshua` Himself, but others will be brought back to life by His Shining Ones - His saints.

The wheat are not judged in the same way that the tares are. The tares are THROWN INTO THE FIRE. The wheat are brought back to life (if they were dead before hand) and assigned their roles in the Kingdom from the sky. That happens at the BEGINNING of the Kingdom of Yeshua` the Messiah to be King! 

I was trying to be clear in the parable of the Wheat and Tares: Yeshua` Himself concluded that, along with His Resurrected and Transformed, the devil will infiltrate His Kingdom with the children of the wicked one. But, they are allowed to remain in His Kingdom until the END! THEN, in the time of the harvest, they will be gathered in bundles to burn! The JUSTIFIED ONES are ushered into His Father's Kingdom, being taken out of His own Kingdom. Remember, the Messiah's Kingdom lasts for a thousand years before the Judgment and before the Son being subject to His Father.

However, the parable of the Wheat and Tares is not a parable about the Resurrections. They are there if you know what to look for, but they are not stated as "resurrections." The first Resurrection are the Justified Ones at the beginning of His Kingdom - the initial "wheat" - the children of the Kingdom that the farmer sows into His World. The second Resurrection are the Unjust at the end of the first 1,000 years of the Messiah's Kingdom. They won't have resurrection bodies, but they will be alive at some point during the 1,000 years. Consequently, some will have died; others were never alive for His Kingdom, but some will be alive at the end of the Millennium, having lived for at least a portion of His Kingdom. ALL of these unjust individuals will stand trial at the Great White Throne Judgment, and ALL will be sentenced to the Lake of Fire! Technically, though, only those who lived for at least a portion of the Millennium are actually the "tares" of the parable.

I know this might be confusing, but with a time period of 1,000 years, some will die of natural causes, while others will be succeeded by their heirs. In any case, they are not uprooted out of His Kingdom. They are allowed to "grow" with the children of the Kingdom until the end and THEN they are sorted out of His Kingdom to stand trial and burn.

[Retrobyter]

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

When does the resurrection of the wicked take place? At the end of this age:

When does the resurrection of the righteous take place? At the end of this age:

 

Shalom, transmogrified (Gary).

No, sir. The resurrection of the wicked takes place at the end of the age, because "He is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish," but the resurrection of the righteous (the justified) takes place at the second coming of the Messiah. The Messiah makes it possible for ALL of His subjects to become part of His Kingdom.

7 hours ago, transmogrified said:

When are the wicked resurrected? At the same time the righteous shine forth..both at the end of this age, the righteous are not resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, but at the Second Coming...the Second Coming is not the end of the next age, nor is the end of the 1000 years when the righteous are resurrected. 

Blessings to you- Gary

Don't be confused. There are TWO stages to the Kingdom of God; the first stage is the first 1,000 years ruled by the Messiah of God, God's Anointed to be King, the time commonly called the "Millennium." He becomes the World Emperor as He annexes many other countries, subduing countries that choose to remain enemies.

When He completely rules every country in the world, He then is subject to His Father YHWH God, and turns the Empire over to Him! Meanwhile, He goes back to just ruling over the house of Ya`aqoV ("Jacob") forever! That's the ONLY way that one can accept both 1 Corinthians 15:28 and Luke 1:30-33 as both being true!

Of course, in this second part of the Kingdom of God, Yeshua` will be reigning over the house of Ya`aqoV forever from His throne in the New Jerusalem upon the New Earth with its New Atmosphere!

1 Corinthians 15:28 (KJV)

28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

and

Luke 1:30-33 (KJV)

30 And the angel (Gavri'eel or "Gabriel") said unto her,

"Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. 31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. 32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: 33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."

I truly hope this helps you, brother!

[transmogrified]

4 minutes ago, Retrobyter said:

12 hours ago, transmogrified said:

When does the resurrection of the righteous take place? At the end of this age:

 

Shalom, transmogrified (Gary).

No, sir. The resurrection of the wicked takes place at the end of the age, because "He is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish," but the resurrection of the righteous (the justified) takes place at the second coming of the Messiah.

Hello Retrobyter...:)

  Jesus said the harvest is the end of the age. Do you believe the wheat are resurrected at the end of this age?

 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

[Retrobyter]

12 hours ago, Uriah said:

Rev 6:11- it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season,

Rev 11:15- And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ

Rev 11:18- and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead

Shalom, Uriah.

How does one "rest" without the ability to "rest?" No, they will be their new bodies back from the dead in the opening of the Fifth Seal.

In Revelation 11, these are the words of the 24 elders. They are simply saying that God has brought about the time in which the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of YHWH God and of His Messiah, Yeshua`, the One anointed to be KING! HOWEVER, that process, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:20-28 is a PROCESS THAT TAKES TIME TO ACCOMPLISH! It will take a THOUSAND YEARS to accomplish, in fact, according to John! It doesn't happen magically all at once! (In spite of how some people portray the process!)

We don't know HOW many times God will have to visit the U.N. building as He lets them know that He fully supports His Messiah Yeshua`! (I don't imagine it will take very many visits!) So, "when His wrath is come" may occur more than once! Nevertheless, God SHALL intervene in the proceedings during the U.N. meetings and SPEAK ON HIS SON'S BEHALF!

Psalm 2:1-12 (KJV)

1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? 2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD (YHWH), and against his anointed (His Mashiyach, His Messiah), saying,

3 "Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us!"

4 He that sitteth in the heavens SHALL LAUGH!: the Lord (Adonaay, the Messiah) shall have them in derision (shall poke fun at them)!

5 Then shall he (YHWH God) speak unto them IN HIS WRATH, and vex (panic) them IN HIS SORE DISPLEASURE!

6 "Yet have I set MY king upon MY holy hill of Zion! 7 I will declare the decree:

"'the LORD hath said unto me,

"'"Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. 9 Thou shalt BREAK THEM with a rod of iron; thou shalt DASH THEM IN PIECES like a potter's vessel!"'

10 "Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth! 11 Serve the LORD WITH FEAR, and rejoice WITH TREMBLING! 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way (the road), when his wrath is kindled but a little! Blessed are all they that put their trust IN HIM!"

Remember what the children of Israel said to Moses when YHWH God spoke to them?!

Exodus 20:18-19 (KJV)

18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off. 19 And they said unto Moses,

"Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die!"

Regarding the "time of the dead," don't think for one moment that there won't be MANY resurrections throughout the 1,000 years! Yeshua` said to Marta ("Martha"),

"I am the Resurrection and the Life!"

He also said, "I am the way, the truth, and the Life! NO MAN cometh unto the Father except through ME!"

He will resurrect MANY!

Daniel 12:2-3 (KJV)

 2 "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

There's no reason why Yeshua` can't raise people to life any time He feels like its appropriate and what His Father would want Him to do! There will be resurrections throughout His Second Advent, just as He did during His First Advent! People don't HAVE to be resurrected at a general resurrection; however, if they weren't before the general resurrection at the end for the Great White Throne Judgment, then ALL remaining SHALL be resurrected!

[Retrobyter]

13 hours ago, Uriah said:

Check out my reply to Retrobyter.

John 5:28.29- the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation

Shalom, again, Uriah.

As I said before, Yeshua` NEVER said that they would happen AT THE SAME TIME! And, Yeshua` can be SELECTIVE as to who can hear His voice, and who will not be able to hear His voice at that time! He points out that these are TWO resurrections, a resurrection of life, and a resurrection of damnation. The Resurrection of life occurs at the Second Coming of our Lord Yeshua` the Messiah of God to be King. The Resurrection of damnation occurs at the END of the age, AFTER the Millennium - the first 1,000 years of the reign of God's Messiah. That final resurrection is a resurrection for those unjust to stand before the Great White Throne Judgment and be thrown into the Lake of Fire!

[Retrobyter]

25 minutes ago, transmogrified said:

Hello Retrobyter...:)

  Jesus said the harvest is the end of the age. Do you believe the wheat are resurrected at the end of this age?

 

Blessings to you- Gary

 

Shalom, Gary.

The harvest is when people are moved out of His Kingdom and into the Kingdom of their Father. IF they don't belong in the Father's Kingdom, then they are brought before the Great White Throne Judgment for sentencing. The Resurrections are NOT associated with the harvest!

The first general Resurrection of those Justified by God are resurrected at Yeshua`s Second Coming! He WANTS all those who belong to Him to be within His Kingdom! They are all His subjects, and they SHOULD have a part in His Kingdom! Besides, He shall give many of them the occupation of kings as they rule and reign UNDER Him when He is their King of kings.

The second general Resurrection of the Unjust are resurrected to stand trial at the Great White Throne Judgment. Yeshua` Himself shall be their Judge (John 5:22), for He is longsuffering, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9). HOWEVER, there's a LIMIT to how long He will wait for people to repent! (2 Peter 3:10).

[Diaste]

18 hours ago, transmogrified said:

When does the resurrection of the wicked take place? At the end of this age:

 

 When does the resurrection of the righteous take place? At the end of this age:

When are the wicked resurrected? At the same time the righteous shine forth..both at the end of this age, the righteous are not resurrected at the end of the 1000 years, but at the Second Coming...the Second Coming is not the end of the next age, nor is the end of the 1000 years when the righteous are resurrected. 

Blessings to you- Gary

Sure. How about this: "When this age is over." instead of "The moment the age ends."? I think this concept is valid. It's not possible to do it all on the 1st day when Jesus returns. Even if it was possible it doesn't have all happen at once. 

I'm not saying there isn't a general resurrection at the 2nd coming, at least of the all the saints. I'm saying what I see is the ones from GT resurrected at the 2nd coming along with those who faced the beast and are victorious over his authority.

So even if every believer in Jesus from the Ascension to the 2nd coming is resurrected they would be sharing in the 1st resurrection over which the 2nd death has no power. So I cannot see all the dead raised at the 2nd coming.