Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[kenod]

reasons why i believe the rapture will not occur unitll after the great tribulation:-

1) The words used: These words are parousia (literally, presence), apokalypsis (revelation), and epiphaneia (appearance).

First, the word parousia. In I Thessalonians 4:15 Paul uses parousia to describe what pretribulationists would call the rapture. But in I Thessalonians 3:13 the same word is used to describe the "coming of our Lord Jesus with all his saints"

[Guest PatmosIsle]

Hello brothers and sisters,

Since the forums got a little jumbled, I decided to go ahead and start a few new threads. This thread is the defense of the post-trib rapture theological position.

Why do you believe in a post trib rapture?

Your brother in Christ with much agape love,

George

RAPTURE TIMING, in the chronology of the book of Revelation

Although the Lord said "no one knows the day or hour", He did say that we are to "know when He is near, even right at the door..." [Math24:33]. Paul gave us a specific & powerful indicator as to the "timing" [not the day or hour] of the rapture when he said it would occur "at the last trumpet". [i Cor.15:52].

This "last trumpet" is clearly found in Revelation Chapter 11:15. John names it as the "7th trumpet" which, in Revelation, is unquestionably that "last trumpet" which Paul was speaking about.

Clearly, since Rev. 6:1 through Chapter 13:1 show the 1st 3 1/2 years of the Tribulation period [Rev.13:1 being the exact middle of the Tribulation period) then Rev. 11:15 (the "last" & "7th" trumpet) obviously occurs somewhere in the 1st 3 1/2 years of the final 7 year period. This lines up exactly with all other passages, including the Lord's statements, which speak of the rapture & its timing.

For more exhaustive & JOLTING CLARITY as to "how near?" we as believers really are, then go to: www.Heisnear.com

for End Time prophetic insight to the body of Christ....

PatmosIsle

www.Heisnear.com

>>>>

[TomPJr]

Here is some info that I agree with that I got from a free online library by Pastr Doug Batchelor...

Not Left Behind

Another common misconception contained in the secret rapture theory is that people will continue to live here on earth for several years after Christ's return. However, the Bible clearly teaches that when Jesus comes next, there will be no one left alive on this planet.

For example, in his prophecy about the end of the age, Jeremiah wrote:"I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. I beheld, and lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. I beheld, and lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger: (Jeremiah 4:23-26, emphasis added).

In another place he declared,"And the slain of the Lord shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: They shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground: (Jeremiah 25:33)

The prophet Isaiah describes the same dismal conditions in his prophecy of the state of the earth following the second coming. "Behold, the Lord maketh the earth empty, and maketh it waste, and turneth it upside down, and scattereth aboad the inhabitants thereof." "The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled:for the Lord hath spoken this word: (Isaiah 24:1,3, emphasis added).

Last but not least, consider the following passage of Scripture:"And as it was in the days of Noe [Greek for 'Noah'], so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded; But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed:" (Luke 17:26-30, emphasis added).

Notice that the wicked were detroyed on the same day that the Flood came to Noah and on the same day that the fire came to Sodom. Jesus emphasizes at both the beginning and the end of this passage that these earlier judgments, which destroyed all of the wicked, were examples of what would happen at His second coming. The Bible is crystal clear that life on earth does not continue for either man or beast after Jesus comes.

Through the Tribulation With Christ

The idea that the righteous will all be raptured out of the world just before the time of trouble and that only the wicked will be left behind to endure seven years of tribulation can be very appealing. Perhaps that is why this doctrine has gained such widestred acceptance. But the Bible clearly teaches otherwise.

The phrase "seven years of tribulation" does not appear anywhere in Scripture. However, Jesus did say that a terrible time of trouble would come upon the world just before His return and that it would be more intense than any other in the history of this world. In His great prophetic discourse on the Mount of Olives, Jesus made the following statement: "For then shall be great tribulation,such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect"s sake those days shall be shortened: (Matthew 24:21-22).

If the elect were not in the world during the great tribulation, they would not need the days to be shortened!

All throughout Scripture we see examples of the Lord saving His people though tribulation, not from it.

Noah was not saved from the Flood, but through it.

Daniel was not saved from the lions' den, but through it.

Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were not were not saved from the fiery furnace, but through it. In fact, Jesus went through it with them, and He will go through the great tribulation with us, as well!

The children of Israel were not saved from Egypt before the plagues fell, but afterward. God demonstrated His love and power by preserving them in Egypt through the 10 plagues. In the same way, the righteous will be in the world when the seven last plagues fall (revelation chapter 16), but God will preserve them.

God never promises that our lives will always be easy. Christ prayed to His Father for His disciples, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil [one]" (John 17:15). Likewise, in 2 Timothy 3:12 Paul states, "All that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." Paul also told a group of disciples that "We must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).

In His parable of the two home builders, Jesus taught that the storm comes to the wise man who builds on the rock just as surely as it comes to the fool who builds upon the sand (Matthew 7:24-27). The storm will come to all.

The good news is that God's children will survive the coming tribulation. They will endure by practicing some of the same survival skills used by the Great Basin bristlecone pine. Believed to be one of the oldest living trees on the planet, it can live more than 4,000 years. Found on lonely mountaintops, some of these ancient evergreens have weathered thousands of years of intense freezing wind, pounding rain, scorching sun, and violent electrical storms.

How do they manage to survive such harsh, adverse conditions? They send their roots deep, wrap them tenaciously around a solid rock, and hang on.

In the same way, the saints will have to sink their roots of faith deep into the Word of God and cling tenaciously to the mighty Rock of Ages.

Remember that even though God does not always provide an escape from tribulation, He does promise to give us the power and strength to get through it. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me" (Philippians 4:13)

Times of Trouble

As we discuss the great tribulation to take place just before Jesus returns, keep in mind that there have been several other "times of trouble" for God's people in the past.

For example, the children of Israel endured 400 years of tribulation just before the Exodus (Acts 7:6). The early Christians also passed through a time of trouble immediately after the stoning of Stephen (Acts 8:1). From A.D. 303-313,during the era represented by the Smyrna church (Revelation 2:10), God's people suffered a 10-year period of tribulation. But perhaps the most notable time of trouble was the 1,260 years of intense persecution waged against true Christians during the Dark Ages. "And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." "And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child" (Revelation 12: 6,13).

As dark as each of these times was for God's people none will compare with the final, great tribulation that is yet to take place. The great tribulation corresponds with the time during which the seven last plagues of Revelation chapter 16 will "fall. "And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God" (Revelation 15:1).

God's wrath will be directed against the ones who disobey His law, distort His truth, and oppress His people. "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness " (Romans 1:18).

The great tribulation also coincides with the Battle of Armageddon. Both take place immediately before Christ's second coming. "And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done:(Revelation 16:16-17).

It is my belief that the great time of trouble will last only a month or two. Here are a few Scriptures that indicate it will be a short period of time.

Revelation 18:8 tells us, "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day." A "day" in Bible prophecy represents one literal year (Ezekiel 4:6;Numbers 14:34;Luke 13:32). So when Revelation says that "her plagues come in one day," it means within, or less than, one year's time. Furthermore, the very nature of the seven last plagues-the rivers and seas turning to blood and the planet being scorched with great heat- would render it impossible for the human race to survive more than a month or two. This is why Jesus said, "And unless those days were shorened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (Matthew 24:22, NKJV).

Just Before the Plagues

Since the experience of the children of Israel just before the plagues fell on Egypt is a type, or symbol, of what will happen to God's people before the seven last plagues described in Revelation chapter 16, let's examine that story more closely.

After 400 years of slavery, the Israelites had become influenced by the religion of Egypt and had lost sight of God's law. So before Moses and Aaron met with the Pharaoh, they first met with the leaders of Israel to encourage a revival of commitment to God's law-including the Sabbath of creation (Exodus 4:29-31). The people responded wholeheartedly, which is why the Pharaoh got angry and said to Moses and Aaron, "You make them rest from their labor!" (Exodus 5:5, NKJV). Remember that the children of Israel knew the Sabbath was part of God's law before they ever came to Mount Sinai (Exodus 16:22-28).

Likewise, before the onset of the great tribulation, special attention will once again be called to the subject of worship and the Sabbath commandment. In Revelation 14:7, an angel calls God's people to "worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." The angel is clearly quoting from the Sabbath commandment, which says, "For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day" (Exodus 20:11).

A widespread rediscovery of the law of God, including the Sabbath truth, will be the alarm that wakes the dragon to fury. The devil hates the Sabbath because he knows that all love relationships are built upon time. If he can destroy the day that was set apart for God's people to spend quality time with their Creator, he can destroy the relationship. We see this happen over and over again between husbands and wives or between fathers and sons. If two people stop spending quality time together, soon the relationship will fall apart.

When the children of Israel responded to God's call to keep the seventh-day Sabbath holy, the Pharaoh became furious. He knew that as long as the people focused only on work, work, work, they would have no time to think about freedom. The devil is using the very same strategy today. His goal is to keep people so busy with work and so preoccupied with the cares of this life that they have no time to worship their Creator. He knows that if he can cause people to neglect the Sabbath rest, they will never have time to think seriously of salvation.

Looking down through history to the end of time, the Lord knew that His faithful people would keep the Sabbath of the fourth commandment. That is why, in connection with the tribulation, Jesus advises His followers to "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day" (Matthew 24:20).

Another way in which this small time of trouble will resemble the period of time just before the plagues fell on Egypt is that God's people will be called upon to endure a period of bitter hardship. In Moses' day, the angry Pharaoh tried to turn the hearts of his Israelite slaves against their God by forcing them to produce the usual quota of bricks without providing the necessary straw.

In the same way, before the tribulation the government will use political and economic sanctions to pressure God's end-time people into re- ceiving the mark of the beast. During this time the saints will be called upon to share their faith in the face of stiff social, political, and religious opposition. "And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:17).

When this fails to deter the people of God from obedience, there will be a final death decree. The Bible says, " And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed" (Revelation 13:15). At this time, the great tribulation begins and the seven last plagues start to fall.

The time of trouble begins with the wrath of the devil against God's obedient children (Revelation 12:17) and ends with the wrath of God against the ones who obey the beast (Revelation 14:9-10).

No Second Chance

The main reason this last period of time will be so intense is because it will come after probation closes for the lost. God gave the very first prophecy about it to His servant Daniel, who wrote, "At that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book" (Daniel 12:1). Notice that when the great tribulation begins, the cases of all people will have been forever decided.

The door of salvation and grace will close for the world-just as the door on the ark closed seven days before the Flood began. At that time Jesus will declare, "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give to every man according as his work shall be" (Revelation 22:11-12).

For the first time in the world's history, God's Spirit will be completely withdrawn from the lost. The unsaved will be given wholly over to demonic control. The saved will be forever sealed and the lost forever lost. No more changing teams!

God on Trial

If no one is converted by the plagues, then why does the Lord allow them? For thousands of years God's Spirit has worked in the hearts of men. But He has warned that this would not always be so (Genesis 6:3). Satan must have an opportunity to demonstrate what a world that is completely under his power would be like. And so God will finally allow the winds of strife to blow unhindered-but not before His servants are sealed (Revelation 7:1-3).

The great tribulation will prove to the universe that nothing-not even the worst conditions in the history of the world-would change the characters of those still alive upon the earth. God's people will trust Him no matter what, and His enemies will rebel agaist Him no matter what.

Sometimes adversity brings a lost soul to repentance, but as the seven last plagues are being poured out, the wicked will reveal that there are no longer any redeemable threads in their fabric. The following three verses prove this point:

"The fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues; and they repented not to give him glory" (Revelation 16:8-9).

"They blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and did not repent of their deeds" (Revelation 16:11, NKJV). "Men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great" (Revelation 16:21).

No Need to Fear

Perhaps your picture of the great tribulation has always resembled this terrifying recipe:

"Pour the entire contents of Armageddon into a pressure cooker, then slowly mix in the seven last plagues with one full bottle of Jacob's trouble and one whole crushed Babylon. Next, evenly stir in two full boxes of wrath-one from God and one from Satan. Cover securely and cook on high."

We all seem to conjure up frightening images when we think of the coming tribulation. Do yourself a favor; try this instead. Picture Jesus in a fragile little boat on a dark sea, with the waves mounting and wind roaring. Mark 4:38-40 records the scene: "He was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish? And he arose, and rebuked the wind, and said unto the sea, Peace, be still. And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm."

Then Christ said to them, "Why are ye so fearful? how is it that ye have no faith?" Jesus rested with the peace of a baby because He lived by faith in His heavenly Father. One message He delivered repeatedly throughout His ministry was "Fear not."

In John 16:33, Jesus said, "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."

God does not want us to live by fear, but rather by faith. "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love" (1 John 4:18).

During the world's darkest hour and greatest trial, God will supply the greatest peace and faith. We need only to remember that Jesus is in the boat with us. Though the furnace be heated seven times over, we can pass safely through it if Jesus is at our side.

The ninety-first Psalm contains special promises for those living during the last great tribulation. It says, "You shall not be afraid of the terror by night, Nor of the arrow that flies by day, Nor of the pestilence that walks in darkness, Nor of the destruction that lays waste at noonday. A thousand may fall at your side, And ten thousand at your right hand; But it shall not come near you. Only with your eyes shall you look, And see the reward of the wicked" (Psalm 91:5-8, NKJV). The Psalmist makes it clear we will be in the midst of the world during the plagues, yet remain untouched, if God is our refuge. "No evil shall befall you, Nor shall any plague come near your dwelling" (Psalm 91:10, NKJV).

I hope this helps...

[ColleenLovesMischief]

I have always been a post trib. I can't see why we would be taken away from the suffering of the trib. We sure don't deserve to be taken out before it. I fully believe we are to lead others to Christ in the trib and risk the martyers death.

[kenod]

Sorry but your replies are full of contradictions and fabrications. None of which I'm sure you are willing to admit.

Possibly ... but I am willing to disuss it without rancour

[JesusisGod2]

Sorry but your replies are full of contradictions and fabrications. None of which I'm sure you are willing to admit.

Possibly ... but I am willing to disuss it without rancour

I agree with a lot of what you have said. Jesus will come for His saints and then with His saints. I see no contradictions in this.

[JesusisGod2]

Sorry but your replies are full of contradictions and fabrications. None of which I'm sure you are willing to admit.

Possibly ... but I am willing to disuss it without rancour

Ok,

If the scriptures teach that the rapture occurs "at the last trump" how can you refute that without being contradictory?

rt

Where does it say it is at the "last" trump?

[Pilgrim7]

Belief and understanding of Truth is not meaningless.

We have been given the Holy Spirit to lead us into ALL TRUTH. This includes Prophecy. If we allow Him to do His work, then all would be in agreement, or at least heading into agreement. When this isn't happening, then there is a problem. The Holy Spirit is not being allowed to do His job, which means many are being deceived. This desception comes not from the Holy Spirit, but from the 'deceiver'. This would mean that many can't distinguish the difference between the voice of God and the voice of the 'deceiver'. This is a truly frightening situation.

There are only two spirits in the world, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, and the Spirit of anti-christ, a lying spirit, that of deception. As I hear and follow the voice of the Holy Spirit it brings me closer to God and the truth and readies me for the Coming of Christ and His kingdom. If I listen to the Spirit of deception, it brings me closer to Anti-christ, a false christ and readies me to be swept into his kingdom. The problem with those who are deceved, is that they are perilously close to being swept into the wrong kingdom, and don't know it. They think that they are in the Kingdom of Christ when they are actually following the deceiver. A truly serious situation.

This is why truth is so importantant. What one believes reflects which kingdom he is in. When there are multiple options to believe, only one can possibly be truth. This would mean that all others are deceptions or lies. Here we have 3 opposing viewpoints. Only one can be truth, the others would be deceptions, not just opinions. They are not of the Holy Spirit but of the 'deceiver'. Many of the 'so called christian' world are being and will be swept into the kingdom of 'anti-christ'.

This 'cavalier' attitude that truth is not important does not come from Christ or the Holy Spirit.

God Bless,

Dennis

[eric]

From.. KatyAnn,

1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

That's the one I'm waiting for. I'll probably be too far away to hear it but I will know somehow

[kenod]

If the scriptures teach that the rapture occurs "at the last trump" how can you refute that without being contradictory?

What is "the last trump"?