Defense of the Post Trib Rapture

[Uriah]

Hello Oseas,

Is there something defending the post-trib rapture view?

[Steve Conley]

On 5/3/2018 at 11:32 PM, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

But the persecution against the believers will be further aggravated when the Abomination of Desolation be enthroned in the holy place, that is the second Beast, the Beast which comes up out the eart (Rev.13:11-18). 

Oseas, you make a common error in supposing that the man of sin is the False Prophet (the beast from the earth). It puzzles me, as to why so many think that. There is no evidence any where in Scripture that the False Prophet is worshiped, in fact he directs the nations to worship the Beast. It is the Beast (from the sea) who will shew himself to be God while sitting in the Temple, not the False Prophet. It's right there in the text.

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Hallelujah

[Steve Conley]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I have a question for posttribulationists. Do all post-tribbers hold to the recapitulation of the seals, trumpets, and vials?

Thanks for any responses.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

[Uriah]

I cannot speak for "ALL" , but I don't think so. Is this a view you hold to?

[Last Daze]

On 6/8/2018 at 6:11 PM, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

I have a question for posttribulationists. Do all post-tribbers hold to the recapitulation of the seals, trumpets, and vials?

Thanks for any responses.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb

Likewise, I can't speak for all but the pattern is that of the march around Jericho.  There are seven, and seven within the seventh.

The trumpets and vials make up the seven plagues.  There are seven seals and seven plagues within the seventh seal.

[Steve Conley]

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Osaes, you make a common error in supposing that the man of sin is the False Prophet (the beast from the earth). It puzzles me, as to why so many think that. There is no evidence any where in Scripture that the False Prophet is worshiped, in fact he directs the nations to worship the Beast. It is the Beast (from the sea) who will shew himself to be God while sitting in the Temple, not the False Prophet. It's right there in the text.

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Rev 13:8  And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Also, if the RCC is the beast empire why is it that all of the Muslim nations surrounding Israel are spoken of being judged in the eschaton by the Prophets?

Hallelujah

[Steve Conley]

7 hours ago, Oseas Ramos de Siqueira said:

Steve, you make a grave error in asserting that the man of sin, the own incarnated Satan, the false messiah of the esoteric Jewish people, is a Prophet, though be a False prophet, evidently. By the way, the esoteric people of Israel - all Jewish people dominated by a strong and devilish religious system of Judaism, - they are waiting the manifestation of their own messiah, not JESUS. Esoterism is a kind of a Jewish spiritualism, practiced by the religious Judaism. 
JESUS said to the Jews (John 5:v,43): I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another (a false messiah, an IMPOSTER) shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God willl send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Thes.2:9-12)
Yes, JESUS came unto His own, and His own received Him not, they received not the Truth to be saved.

 

What you say is not truth. You are a false prophet like the man of sin, the false messiah of the Jews, Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, the own incarnated Satan who will manifest himself soon to all Israel - to all the esoteric Jewish people -  as their messiah. 

Rev. 13:11-12 leaves clear that the Beast which comes up out of the earth has two horns like a lamb (he is a false lamb, a false messiah), and he speaks as a Dragon. Yes, this man, the Red Dragon, is a false messiah of the Jews, the second Beast whose appearance will happen very near, and he will exercise all the power of the FIRST Beast (the Pope) before the Beast (before the Pope), and causes the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the FIRST Beast (the Pope), the Beast of the sea, (whose deadly wound will be healed-Rev.13:v.5).  The Red Dragon has 7 heads, 10 horns, and a tail. You, Steve, you are situated or placed in the tail of the Red Dragon. (Rev.12:v.3-4)

This spiritualist or esoteric Beast, the man of sin, the spiritualist false messiah of the Jews, will do great wonders, so that he will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and will deceive them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he has power to do in the sight of the Beast (in the sight of the Pope); saying to the dwellers of the earth, that they must make an image to the Beast (to the Pope), which had the wound by a Sword (by the Word of God), and the Beast (the Beast of sea) lives though had been mortally wounded.. 

Furthermore, the man of sin, the spiritualist false messiah of the all esoteric Jewish people, will sit in the holy place (2Thes.2:v.3-4), and he has power to give life unto the image of the Beast (to give life unto the image of the Pope), that the image of him should both speak and simultaneously cause that as many as would not worship the image of the Beast - the Pope -  should be killed. 

Remember: The Holy Place belongs to JESUS exclusively.  With the appearance and manifestation of the false messiah of the Jews among the esoteric people of Israel, dominated by the strong religious system of Judaism, a kind of Jewish spiritualist cult, this second and satanic Beast will sit in the temple of Jerusalem, in the Holy Place, then the Abomination of Desolation will be established, the Holy Place will be wordly profane, under the dominion of Satan (2Thes,2:9-12) - The Abomination of Desolation.

Get ready

abomination:  i.e. that which is abominable, odious, heinous, infamous, nefarious, hateful, filthy, atrocious, cruel, bestial, accursed 

When you  therefore shall see the abomination of desolation in the holy place, i.e. enthroned in the temple of Jerusalém ...
 
 

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Osaes, the two principal mortal antagonists in the eschaton are the Beast and False Prophet. These, Christ casts alive into a lake of fire at the end of the week.

Rev 19:20  And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

These two are described in greater detail in Rev 13. The Beast from the sea (the antichrist, man of sin, willful king, etc) and the Beast from the earth (the False Prophet) fill the corresponding roles of Christ and the Holy Spirit in the unholy trinity. The Dragon (Satan) is the counterpart to the Father, in the Devil's attempt to counterfeit the Godhead.

Like the Holy Spirit doesn't speak of Himself but of Christ, so also, the False Prophet will direct the worship of the world toward the Beast.

Rev 13:12  And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Since he is not the one being worshipped he cannot be the man of sin that Paul speaks of.

2Th 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The Beast from the earth's purpose is to direct worship to the Beast from the sea, whose worship is ultimately received by the Dragon who gave him his power.

Rev 13:4  And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

That's prophecy 101

I can't make heads or tails of much of what you have to say. I suspect the same is true for others.

Hallelujah

[Steve Conley]

On 6/10/2018 at 5:43 AM, Uriah said:

I cannot speak for "ALL" , but I don't think so. Is this a view you hold to?

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, no I do not believe that. I was just attempting to understand what those who call themselves posttribulationists believe. I'm not a classic posttribulationist, but I believe the rapture will come after the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel that Jesus called great tribulation. It is true that the resurrection/rapture will be after the great tribulation, however, it is also true that it will be before God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipping, earth dwellers which begins with the first trumpet judgement. What I believe is what has recently been called the pre-wrath model for the rapture. Below is a chart which illustrates this truth.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

 

[Uriah]

14 hours ago, Steve Conley said:

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, no I do not believe that. I was just attempting to understand what those who call themselves posttribulationists believe. I'm not a classic posttribulationist, but I believe the rapture will come after the unprecedented persecution of the church and Israel that Jesus called great tribulation. It is true that the resurrection/rapture will be after the great tribulation, however, it is also true that it will be before God's wrath falls upon the unbelieving, Beast worshipping, earth dwellers which begins with the first trumpet judgement. What I believe is what has recently been called the pre-wrath model for the rapture. Below is a chart which illustrates this truth.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto the Lamb.

 

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your response. To me, the pre-wrath teachings merely push back all of the problems of pre-trib a bit further. It is not hard to see that the seals, trumpets and vials are the same events that include differing perspective and detail. Remember Rev. 15:8? ....It says that NO ONE will enter until the 7 vials are finished.

[Steve Conley]

4 hours ago, Uriah said:

Hello Steve,

Thanks for your response. To me, the pre-wrath teachings merely push back all of the problems of pre-trib a bit further. It is not hard to see that the seals, trumpets and vials are the same events that include differing perspective and detail. Remember Rev. 15:8? ....It says that NO ONE will enter until the 7 vials are finished.

Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ,

Uriah, I think what you described is a recapitulation of the septets in the book of Revelation. Even though there are some similarities between the seal, trumpets, and vials the temporal statements ensure that they are sequential.

Rev 6: Seals 1 thru 6

then

Rev 7: The sealing of the 144,000 and the innumerable multitude of the elect before the throne.

Rev 7:1  "And after these things..." (these things are what John saw at the opening of the first six seals)

Notice that the 144,000, which are sealed after the first six seals, are being protected from the plagues to follow (trumpets & vials).

Rev 7:3  Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Rev 9:4  And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

then

Rev 8:1  And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
Rev 8:2  And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Rev 8:6  And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.
Rev 8:7  The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Rev 8 & 9 the first 4 trumpets and the first 2 woes

then

The third woe (seventh trumpet) which is the seven vials

Rev 11:14  The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
Rev 11:15  And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 15:1  And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Rev 16 the seven vials poured out.

These must be sequential. First the seals (which are not God's wrath). Then the trumpets, followed by the vials, which are God's wrath.

Uriah, I'm sorry I don't know what you mean by Rev 15:8. I don't know what you're indicating about the temple being empty while the vials are poured out.

Also, if you could explain the "problems" that you think the pre-trib and pre-wrath position share. Thanks.

All praise, honour, and glory be unto Jesus Christ our Lord.