Omniscience v Determinism

[Sower]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

Yet again, this says absolutely nothing about who is able to believe in Jesus.  It just says that everyone who does believe in him will not perish but have eternal life.

There is not even one of the Scriptures you have quoted that addresses the subject of the condition of man's will; but there are Scriptures that address that subject, and you not even mentioned one of them.

 

5 hours ago, Sower said:

God is light, and can not lie.
Some (men)refer to no free will (and here we go:)

Centuries old argument, creating much division, loss of fellowship.
Though I am not qualified/equipped to enter this debate, I do not agree with your assertions.
When someone sowed a tiny seed in my lost heart, it caused a tiny light, of truth. More seed, more light.
Less darkness. How did God 'enable me' to cry out for salvation mercy? The word, scripture, light, God.
"And the word was God" 
 

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.”  2 Peter 3:9
 

 

[Diaste]

11 hours ago, David1701 said:

The Bible teaches determinism.

Eph. 1:11 (WEB)  in whom also we were assigned an inheritance, having been foreordained according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his will;

Is. 46:9-11 (WEB)

 9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is no one else; I am God, and there is none like me;
  10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things that are not yet done; saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure;
  11 calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country; yes, I have spoken, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed, I will also do it.

Is. 55:8-11 (WEB)

8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways,” says the LORD.

  9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.

  10 For as the rain comes down and the snow from the sky,
and doesn’t return there, but waters the earth,
and makes it grow and bud,
and gives seed to the sower and bread to the eater;

  11 so shall my word be that goes out of my mouth:
it shall not return to me void,
but it shall accomplish that which I please,
and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.

Yes. In the sense of what God plans He accomplishes. And that over 1000s of years.

11 hours ago, David1701 said:

It is determinism that leads to omniscience.

Acts 15:18 (WEB) All of God’s works are known to him from eternity.

Yes. It's also an intimate and complete knowledge of all He has done as well. Every aspect of all creation is known to Him, down to every atom and the working of the atom. That knowledge existed even before the first created anything so it would seem omniscience begat the whole of creation including the master plan.

I feel that our Father was ready with plan in place should man fall. But that could be wrong and maybe His response was in the moment and yet wholly correct as there was only one way forward to save mankind. Some say He knew ahead of time man would indeed fall. I don't buy that. He seemed surprised, disappointed and hurt in Gen 3.

11 hours ago, David1701 said:

Man's will is also not coerced ("free", in that sense); he wills according to his nature.  The unregenerate is a sinner by nature, so he wills to sin.

Eph. 2:1-3 (WEB)

1 You were made alive when you were dead in transgressions and sins,
  2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the children of disobedience;
  3 among whom we also all once lived in the lust of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

The regenerate wills to please God, in his spirit, although his flesh battles against this, because there is nothing good in it, due to the fact that our bodies are not resurrected yet.

Rom. 6:17,18 (WEB)

 17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas you were bondservants of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were delivered.
  18 Being made free from sin, you became bondservants of righteousness. 

Rom. 7:22,23 (WEB)

 22 For I delight in God’s law after the inward man,
  23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom. 7:24-8:2 (WEB)

 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will deliver me out of the body of this death?
  25 I thank God through Jesus Christ, our Lord! So then with the mind, I myself serve God’s law, but with the flesh, the sin’s law. 

8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who don’t walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
  2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

I think where we find the trouble is in differentiating between God knowing what we are thinking and controlling our thinking. 

I guarantee He knows what I'm thinking as I hold nothing back from Him. It's useless as He already knows the truth. I can also attest to the fact I can violate what I know He wants, and it's sometimes a struggle; maybe a brief one, maybe a tremendous one. I would not experience the emotions attached to the struggle [would there be a struggle?] if my decision was controlled.

Apologies if I missed it but is there some scriptural evidence that clearly shows the unfettered free agency of mankind in thought and deed? I have a few ideas where to look but any help is appreciated.

[Selah7]

15 hours ago, Diaste said:

Are these the same thing?

Does omniscience result in determinism?

What are the scriptural facts on God's omniscience?

Apologies, I need to catch up on this.

Thanks!

I’m not sure what the Omniscience of God has to do with Determinism. Could you explain why the Omniscience of God would affect the actions of His children?
. . .

Blessings and curses—Ref. Scripture Deut. 28:1, 28:15-20 and 30:19

I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,

Deuteronomy 28:1  And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 
2  And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy 28:15  But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 
16  Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 
17  Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 
18  Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 
19  Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. 
20  The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

Deuteronomy 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Selah7

[Diaste]

12 hours ago, Sower said:

God is in control, even at this moment...

Omniscience

For whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. 1 John 3:20

Great is our Lord and mighty in power; his understanding has no limit. Psalm 147:5

This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 1 John 1:5

“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

determinism, not

Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me. Revelation 3:20

And if it is evil in your eyes to serve the LORD, choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.”
Joshua 24:15

Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
John 7:17

And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.  Mark 8:34

If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”
Now Cain said to his brother Abel, “Let’s go out to the field.” While they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him.   Genesis 4:7-8

 

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3; 16

You know...I think this is helpful. 'Omniscience' does not appear in the scripture, the word 'choose' does. 

I think back to a story in scripture about Abraham. One sec...

3One night, however, God came to Abimelech in a dream and told him, “You are as good as dead because of the woman you have taken, for she is a married woman.”

4Now Abimelech had not gone near her, so he replied, “Lord, would You destroy a nation even though it is innocent? 5Didn’t Abraham tell me, ‘She is my sister’? And she herself said, ‘He is my brother.’ I have done this in the integrity of my heart and the innocence of my hands.”

6Then God said to Abimelech in the dream, “Yes, I know that you did this with a clear conscience, and so I have kept you from sinning against Me. That is why I did not let you touch her. 7Now return the man’s wife, for he is a prophet; he will pray for you and you will live. But if you do not restore her, be aware that you will surely die—you and all who belong to you.”

Clearly God controlled Abimelech's actions through some means, maybe even thought control, so he would not violate Sarah. Then God demands a choice out of Abimelech! Why did not God just control the whole scenario from the beginning when it's obvious He could have? "I have kept you from..." "That is why I did not let you..."

Then the choice is demanded with a reward for the right choice and a consequence for the wrong one. 

Where is God drawing the line here between controlling a person's actions and requiring a choice? 

Do you see the line in this fascinating exchange? He kept Abimelech from sinning then forced a moment of choice which could to lead to righteousness or death. Is that the dividing line? Our only choice that can not be forced is the choice between life and death?

 

[Diaste]

40 minutes ago, Selah7 said:

Blessings and curses—Ref. Scripture Deut. 28:1, 28:15-20 and 30:19

I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,

Deuteronomy 28:1  And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 
2  And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God.

Deuteronomy 28:15  But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 
16  Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 
17  Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 
18  Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 
19  Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out. 
20  The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.

Deuteronomy 30:19  I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

 

Very good. I think I'm at the point where it's beginning to become more clear.  I see what you posted has everything to do with listening to God or not and the rewards and consequences. 

From where I sit right at this moment it's not, "deterministic or not deterministic", it's what's determined and what's not, including our very thoughts and actions. That of course being benevolent in the case of the righteous for our good and God's glory.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Diaste

[David1701]

10 hours ago, Sower said:

Centuries old argument, creating much division, loss of fellowship.
Though I am not qualified/equipped to enter this debate, I do not agree with your assertions.
 

Okay, so you entered the debate, knowing that you might stir up division and loss of fellowship, and that you are neither qualified, nor equipped to enter the debate!  What kind of attitude is that?!

Quote

When someone sowed a tiny seed in my lost heart, it caused a tiny light, of truth. More seed, more light.
Less darkness. How did God 'enable me' to cry out for salvation mercy? The word, scripture, light, God.
"And the word was God" 

It does not matter how much light (e.g. the gospel) a lost, unregenerate man is shown, he will hate it and reject it.  It does not matter how, or how often, God speaks to such a man, he will be hostile towards God.  This is why Jesus told Nicodemus that you (plural) MUST be born again, in order to perceive and enter the kingdom of God.  God MUST change the heart/spirit of a lost man, otherwise he will never repent and believe the gospel.

John 3:18-20 (VW)

18 The one believing into Him is not judged; but the one not believing is judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone practising evil hates the Light and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

Rom. 8:7-9 (VW)

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the Law of God, nor indeed can be.
8 So then, those who are in the flesh are not able to please God.
9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

1 Cor. 2:14 (VW) But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Ez. 36:26,27 (VW)

26 I will also give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
27 And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you shall keep My judgments and do them.

---Salvation is of the Lord, not the will of man!

Rom. 9:15,16 (VW)

15 For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.

Quote

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness;
but is long-suffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.”  2 Peter 3:9

I had hoped that you would pay attention to my exhortation to take verses in context, but it appears not.

2 Pet. 3:7-9 (VW)

7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same Word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But, beloved, do not be unaware of this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9 The Lord is not slow concerning His promise, as some count slowness, but is longsuffering toward us, not purposing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

---The first thing to notice is the "But...", in verse 8, contrasting the "ungodly men", in the preceding verses, with the "beloved", in verses 8 and 9.

The Lord is long-suffering towards US (i.e. the beloved elect), not purposing any of us to perish but all of us to come to repentance; and this is exactly what happens!

This is confirmed in verse 15.

2 Pet. 3:15 (VW) and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you,

This long-suffering of the Lord is salvation (i.e. it is effectual in producing salvation in the "beloved").

I will reiterate, and hope that you take it to heart this time: it is vital to take verses in context, in order to avoid false teaching.

[David1701]

2 hours ago, Diaste said:

Yes. In the sense of what God plans He accomplishes. And that over 1000s of years.

Yes. It's also an intimate and complete knowledge of all He has done as well. Every aspect of all creation is known to Him, down to every atom and the working of the atom. That knowledge existed even before the first created anything so it would seem omniscience begat the whole of creation including the master plan.

I feel that our Father was ready with plan in place should man fall. But that could be wrong and maybe His response was in the moment and yet wholly correct as there was only one way forward to save mankind. Some say He knew ahead of time man would indeed fall. I don't buy that. He seemed surprised, disappointed and hurt in Gen 3.

I think where we find the trouble is in differentiating between God knowing what we are thinking and controlling our thinking. 

I guarantee He knows what I'm thinking as I hold nothing back from Him. It's useless as He already knows the truth. I can also attest to the fact I can violate what I know He wants, and it's sometimes a struggle; maybe a brief one, maybe a tremendous one. I would not experience the emotions attached to the struggle [would there be a struggle?] if my decision was controlled.

Apologies if I missed it but is there some scriptural evidence that clearly shows the unfettered free agency of mankind in thought and deed? I have a few ideas where to look but any help is appreciated.

 

Quote

I feel that our Father was ready with plan in place should man fall.

What??? Man's fall was a necessary part of the plan!  The Lord determined Jesus to go to the cross, before he had even created Adam!

God could have prevented Adam from falling, in millions of ways (literally), without coercion.  God chose not to; in other words, God chose to allow Adam to fall (and all of humanity with him), when he could easily have prevented it (e.g. by forbidding the devil to tempt Eve, or by intervening when he did tempt Eve, or by giving Adam grace to resist, etc., etc.)

[Diaste]

1 hour ago, David1701 said:

 

What??? Man's fall was a necessary part of the plan!  The Lord determined Jesus to go to the cross, before he had even created Adam!

God could have prevented Adam from falling, in millions of ways (literally), without coercion.  God chose not to; in other words, God chose to allow Adam to fall (and all of humanity with him), when he could easily have prevented it (e.g. by forbidding the devil to tempt Eve, or by intervening when he did tempt Eve, or by giving Adam grace to resist, etc., etc.)

Necessary? I don't buy it. Thousands of years of death, destruction and anguish was necessary? That's why the atheists call God evil; cause He entrapped Adam and Eve just so He could murder His son and torture mankind with the threat of death if they don't believe in Him. Further this is placing all the blame on God for what mankind did. In essence then we can blame God for rapists and serial killers if the fall was a necessary predetermined part of a plan that existed before creation. 

No. It happened by free will choice and it was not required. 

And if you have a case for this start a thread. We really are not dealing with this here.

[David1701]

2 minutes ago, Diaste said:

Necessary? I don't buy it. Thousands of years of death, destruction and anguish was necessary? That's why the atheists call God evil; cause He entrapped Adam and Eve just so He could murder His son and torture mankind with the threat of death if they don't believe in Him. Further this is placing all the blame on God for what mankind did. In essence then we can blame God for rapists and serial killers if the fall was a necessary predetermined part of a plan that existed before creation. 

I'll prove that the part of your post I've made bold is true, very simply.

1 Pet. 1:18-20 (VW)

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your vain way of life received by tradition from your fathers,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

The cross of Christ was "foreordained before the foundation of the world" (before Adam had even been created).  Since God could very easily have prevented the Fall, without in any way overriding Adam's will, and because the cross was God's remedy for the Fall, the Fall was a NECESSARY part of God's plan.  There really is no getting round this.

Your caricature of what this means, is exactly the kind of thing that atheists say; but, it is absolutely not the kind of thing that Christians should say!

God determined that Adam would fall, he did not force Adam to fall; there is a huge difference.

[Diaste]

1 minute ago, David1701 said:

I'll prove that the part of your post I've made bold is true, very simply.

1 Pet. 1:18-20 (VW)

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your vain way of life received by tradition from your fathers,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

The cross of Christ was "foreordained before the foundation of the world" (before Adam had even been created).  Since God could very easily have prevented the Fall, without in any way overriding Adam's will, and because the cross was God's remedy for the Fall, the Fall was a NECESSARY part of God's plan.  There really is no getting round this.

Your caricature of what this means, is exactly the kind of thing that atheists say; but, it is absolutely not the kind of thing that Christians should say!

God determined that Adam would fall, he did not force Adam to fall; there is a huge difference.

Start a topic. I'll engage. I'm interested in this.